dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on April 01, 2012, 08:37:40 PM
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I really like meeting Dorje Shugden when he takes full trance of the Kuten (oracle monk). It is incredible this ancient art of superior beings taking over a human body to communicate, bless, teach, and give prophecies. This is such a powerful picture.
Dorje Shugden takes trance of the oracle of Sera. This was taken in Serpom Monastery this year. I found this picture on the youtube and snagged it.
Blessings to all.
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. ;)
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. ;)
If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead ::)
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits.
This is nothing surprising.
There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world.
It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
Indeed, it is part of what is called Shamanistic worship, of the past and of the present to.
However, in some traditions, there are spirits that are bound by an oath to enlightened beings, such as Nechung, who is not enlightened, but who is bound by his oath to Guru Rinpoche to protect the Buddhist teachings.
To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.
I beg to differ.
It is a great feat, and for the simple reason that Shugden is not a spirit, He is an enlightened protector, and He would not just come by for any other reason than sending across an enlightened message, advice or blessing.
Any message, advice or blessing form a Buddha is a great feat, I am sure we all agree on that.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle.
If we can rely on Dorje Shugden, then why can't we rely on the Shugden orcale taking trance of Dorje Shugden?
I don't understand...
Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.
What about oracles that channel "spirits" bound by an oath, such as Nechung, would the same fate await the oracle taking trance of them?
Though Nechung is not an enlightened protector, he is no evil spirit, right?
I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.
If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
Of course, one must rely on the instructions from one's Guru. 8)
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. ;)
If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead ::)
Death would never stop the work of a Mahasattva like His Holiness. No worries there. His Holiness would just immediate reincarnate back to a new body. He has full control. He is Avalokitesvara as predicted by Guru Padmasambhava.
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. ;)
If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead ::)
Death would never stop the work of a Mahasattva like His Holiness. No worries there. His Holiness would just immediate reincarnate back to a new body. He has full control. He is Avalokitesvara as predicted by Guru Padmasambhava.
You say you'd rather listen to Nechung however it was Dorje shugden who advised the Dalai lama out of tibet and kept him safe on the long travel across the mountains along with the group he founded a few years before (Chusi Gangdruk) without Dorje shugden there would be No Dalai lama as we know him today.
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits...... Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.
This is evident from the havoc that the Nechung Oracle has wreaked - killing the 13th Dalai Lama, giving the Dalai Lama mistaken and misleading advice and getting many things wrong, including misinformation regarding that nature of Dorje Shugden.
The fact that the Dalai Lama is alive today is evidence that the Dorje Shugden oracle could be trusted. The many calamities that the Nechung oracle is responsible for is evidence that he cannot be trusted. I then wonder why the Dalai Lama continues to rely on him? This doesn't show much wisdom.
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits...... Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.
This is evident from the havoc that the Nechung Oracle has wreaked - killing the 13th Dalai Lama, giving the Dalai Lama mistaken and misleading advice and getting many things wrong, including misinformation regarding that nature of Dorje Shugden.
The fact that the Dalai Lama is alive today is evidence that the Dorje Shugden oracle could be trusted. The many calamities that the Nechung oracle is responsible for is evidence that he cannot be trusted. I then wonder why the Dalai Lama continues to rely on him? This doesn't show much wisdom.
Hi Lineageholder,
This is very interesting and I am enjoying the conversation here.
I was reading one of your previous threads and I quote you, "The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable." (post source: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957) ). Here in the other thread you say that oracles are not reliable, but then in this thread you are saying Dorje Shugden oracles ARE reliable?
1. You are a part of NKT and your teacher is Geshe Kelsang. So Geshe-la/NKT finds them unreliable. Since you are part of NKT you also find them unreliable? Which one is it? You find them reliable or unreliable?
2. Or your opinion of oracles differ from Geshe Kelsang, your teacher?
Whichever one it is, I respect your opinion, I am just confused because your stance changes in different threads. :-[
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This is very interesting and I am enjoying the conversation here.
I was reading one of your previous threads and I quote you, "The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable." (post source: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957[/url]) ). Here in the other thread you say that oracles are not reliable, but then in this thread you are saying Dorje Shugden oracles ARE reliable?
1. You are a part of NKT and your teacher is Geshe Kelsang. So Geshe-la/NKT finds them unreliable. Since you are part of NKT you also find them unreliable? Which one is it? You find them reliable or unreliable?
2. Or your opinion of oracles differ from Geshe Kelsang, your teacher?
Whichever one it is, I respect your opinion, I am just confused because your stance changes in different threads. :-[
Hi Tenzin,
I can't say for sure why NKT doesn't rely on oracles - Geshe Kelsang has never said anything against them but it does say in our Internal Rules that we will not rely on them. My assumption is that they are generally unreliable. The Nechung Oracle has proven that, and there are other examples from oracle invocations. Here is one example from the chronology of events of the Dorje Shugden ban:
November 1996
H.H. the Dalai Lama attends the last day of six weeks of practices in connection with Tamdrin Yangsang, the day on which the rituals including the “taking out of the tormas” are performed. Those present are monks from Sera-Je and Nechung monasteries, and six oracles, who all went into trance. One, a female oracle, Tsering Chenma, began attacking Dorje Shugden, saying that even within this congregation there are still those who practice Dorje Shugden. Another female oracle, Yudonma, then pointed to a Lama called Jangmar Rinpoche from Drepung Loseling monastery, aged late 60's, originally from Gyalthang province of eastern Tibet, and started shouting, “This Lama is bad, he is following Dorje Shugden, take him out, take him out!.” She then started pulling his robes and grabbing his head. The Lama got up and slapped her twice. A scuffle broke out between Jangmar Rinpoche and his attendants on one side, and the oracle and monks from Nechung monastery on the other. Thus the lama was expelled. Next day he reported this incident to His Holiness directly and His Holiness said: "You have no fault, I know very well that you are not a practitioner of Dorje Shugden. Sometimes these oracles are a little too much. It is good you gave a slap." Thus he resumed his place.
http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1996EN.html (http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1996EN.html)
It seems that oracles are always getting things wrong - however, I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle gave precise instructions on how the Dalai Lama was to escape from Tibet, and, as they say, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' because the Dalai Lama escaped safely from Tibet. In that case the Dorje Shugden oracle proved to be completely reliable but it could be that in these degenerate times it is hard to find a qualified oracle.
So, in general, it's my own view that oracles are unreliable but I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle is the main reason why the Dalai Lama is alive today and if he is going to rely on oracles, he would be better off relying on one that seems to work rather than one that doesn't (Nechung).
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So, in general, it's my own view that oracles are unreliable but I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle is the main reason why the Dalai Lama is alive today and if he is going to rely on oracles, he would be better off relying on one that seems to work rather than one that doesn't (Nechung).
I would be more cautious as to how "reliable" or "unreliable" Nechung is.
We do know that he is not enlightened yet, but we also know that he is bound by oath.
Now, if he really was that unreliable, then why does the Dalai Lama still consult him?
I do not believe that the Dalai Lama would keep consulting someone who is repetitively unreliable.
So I am wondering about Nechung and how much what he does may be part of a dynamic to help us see the truth.
Let's not forget that there is undeniably a relationship between Nechung and Dorje Shugden (refer to the illustrated story and there is more), so what was this relationship about in 1959, and now still?
I can't see it, but there is something more there than meet the eyes...
Nechung takes the blame for "poisoning" the 13th Dalai Lama -a story on which there is much to tell but that seems easier to explain by an "ill advice from Nechung about a potion"!
Nechung takes the blame for ill-advising the Dalai Lama in Lhassa in 1959.
Nechung again takes the blame for the non-event in what was predicted for the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet...
And yet, it is said that Nechung is now very near to enlightenment!
And yet, HH still seeks for his advice?
The pieces do not fit.... I think there is more than meet the eyes.
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I would be more cautious as to how "reliable" or "unreliable" Nechung is.
We do know that he is not enlightened yet, but we also know that he is bound by oath.
Hi hope rainbow,
I think we need to distinguish between Nechung and the Nechung ORACLE.
The oracle is unreliable, Nechung may not be.
And regarding the Dalai Lama's reliance on the Nechung oracle, it doesn't make any sense to rely on him because he is always giving bad advice. That's the evidence, I'm afraid, it's up to you to interpret the reason why. I just think the Dalai Lama doesn't demonstrate much wisdom by relying on a worldly being in the first place.
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The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?
If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?
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Hi hope rainbow,
I think we need to distinguish between Nechung and the Nechung ORACLE.
The oracle is unreliable, Nechung may not be.
And regarding the Dalai Lama's reliance on the Nechung oracle, it doesn't make any sense to rely on him because he is always giving bad advice. That's the evidence, I'm afraid, it's up to you to interpret the reason why. I just think the Dalai Lama doesn't demonstrate much wisdom by relying on a worldly being in the first place.
Hi LH,
What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?
Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow
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Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.
It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 8)
The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. ;)
It's good you have access to the Tibetan Library and obviously you have access to information from this website which serves to educate thousands of people around the world about who Dorje Shugden is and he is obviously not a spirit but an enlightened being.
What makes you believe one side of the story and not considering the other side? Have you considered perhaps the two sides of the stories are actually leading to the same end and that this website is not about discrediting HHDL.
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Thank you all for your well thought out presentation of thoughts and points of view. I have learnt a lot from just reading the debate that is going on in this thread.
May I humbly add that I believe reliability and consistency of oracles depends strongly on whether they are channeling enlightened or unenlightened beings. Oracles for enlightened Buddha should communicate from a level of complete clairvoyance when in trance. Thus, the accuracy of their prophesies are always reliable. On the contrary, relying on oracles of unenlightened being, we are relying on a view that is still limited. Thus, their prophesies should have some short-comings naturally.
I was fortunate enough to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle in trance. The energy the oracle emits is to compassionate and “clean”. The responses to the questions presented were all accurately as proven by the passing of time.
Perhaps, regardless of our stand on this matter, we should take a moment to actually appreciate the beautiful image shared. To have the opportunity to see an authentic oracle who has served and benefited so many people, we are truly blessed. We should also consider that although some authentic oracles may give inaccurate predictions, they must have done some good (probably more than less) for others, which is another plus point that deserves acknowledgement.
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The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?
If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?
I would like to elaborate a bit on what Wisdom Being has brought out, highly attained lamas like Dalai Lama do have clairvoyance, and I do believe that Dalai Lama does not need to consult another enllightened being, let alone unlightened being like Nechung through an oracle.
This is very similar to high lamas doing divinations for people, the high lamas do not need to throw dice, or whatsoever, they know what is the best advice to give to those people who ask the questions, but because of the level of our minds that tend to follow advice or instructions better if the advice looks like it is from the divine.
Similarly, as with oracles, we will take the instructions/advice better since we think it is from the divine again, some kind of external mighty power, even the exixtence of oracles are for the benefits for lay people like us.
Then back to why there are so many inconsistencies with Dalai Lama practising and praising Dorje Shugden first and then later condemning DS as an evil spirit, and also Nechung displaying inaccuracy in many of his prophecies, this does not create any logic and sense at all. I can only find the answer to all these puzzles by thinking there is something which we all cannot see for now, and I believed that all these highly evolved beings are bringing forth something bigger, something more benefical to everyone. Afterall, why would Dalai Lama makes himself inconsistent and look rediculous if everyone propitiate him as Chenrizig?
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To me I think that even the oracle can not be mistaken. They are the chosen ones to go through training, recognized by high attained masters and gurus. Of course, the ultimate His Holiness would have know and recognized them so how can even an oracle be wrong? If the oracle can't be wrong then how can the deity that being invited is wrong? If Dorje Shugden is wrong, then the oracle is wrong, if the oracle is wrong then the guru is wrong, it leads all the way back to the lineage then the whole monastic system is wrong!!! If the whole monastic system is wrong, oh dear then Buddhism as a whole is wrong!
How can it be just Nechung and His Holiness is right? It is just pure logic. Few thousand years of practice proven by high attained beings, gurus and lamas to what we are today are pure practices. If it is unpure, I would love to see more images of evil spirit being propiated rather than just "Shugden" himself. Not to mention the work he has accomplished in his previous life time. I am so honour to be in the presence of the Kuten, Shugden oracle and witness the very king himself during the recent visit to the monastery.
I am much honoured that the practice and tradition is pure and unbroken. How many people actually get blessing and questions answered so they can be better and practice dharma. No offense, but sorry I haven't heard much about Nechung. But I hope more people would stop questioning about Dorje Shugden amd the oracle...
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In relying on the accuracy (or not) of oracles, I believe it is important also to consider who it was that installed them as an oracle and gave them the necessary training.
It's been explaining before that the training that an oracle has to undergo is very extensive and specifically guided and observed by a qualified Lama. It's not just someone wanting to take trance invoking beings at their own will! Some individuals may have certain propensities that make it "easier" for them to take trance, but they must still undergo the proper training, retreats and individual practices that their Lama would recommend to allow for the smoothest and most accurate trances BY THE CORRECT BEINGS. The Lama doesn't just prepare the oracle to take trance of enlightened beings, but I am certain, also guides the oracle on stopping other negative, or lesser, beings from trying to enter also.
So it is important to consider where he got his training from, where he studied and whether or not he has undergone the extensive, necessary retreats. There are oracles existing in the world today who have been made oracles by Trijang Rinpoche himself. with the trust that I have in Trijang Rinpoche's incomparable knowledge and attainments and I would not doubt these oracles, nor the beings that enter them. If it's good enough for Trijang Rinpoche, it's certainly good enough for the rest of us.
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In relying on the accuracy (or not) of oracles, I believe it is important also to consider who it was that installed them as an oracle and gave them the necessary training.
It's been explaining before that the training that an oracle has to undergo is very extensive and specifically guided and observed by a qualified Lama. It's not just someone wanting to take trance invoking beings at their own will! Some individuals may have certain propensities that make it "easier" for them to take trance, but they must still undergo the proper training, retreats and individual practices that their Lama would recommend to allow for the smoothest and most accurate trances BY THE CORRECT BEINGS. The Lama doesn't just prepare the oracle to take trance of enlightened beings, but I am certain, also guides the oracle on stopping other negative, or lesser, beings from trying to enter also.
So it is important to consider where he got his training from, where he studied and whether or not he has undergone the extensive, necessary retreats. There are oracles existing in the world today who have been made oracles by Trijang Rinpoche himself. with the trust that I have in Trijang Rinpoche's incomparable knowledge and attainments and I would not doubt these oracles, nor the beings that enter them. If it's good enough for Trijang Rinpoche, it's certainly good enough for the rest of us.
If I am not mistaken, the oracle in training has to finish retreats that amount to millions of mantras, and the retreats are done one after another, and each retreat has millions of mantras to finish. The purpose of the retreats is to prepare the body to take on the energy of the Dharma protector as the organs and channels will expand to accommodate the Dharma protector.
After the internal organs have gained strength through the retreats, the oracle in training will then be possessed repeatedly, non stop 24/7 by the lesser entourage of the Dharma protector to further widen and dilate the channels so that the actual Dharma protector can enter and reside. This is a very painful process and the oracle must be both physically and mentally strong to go through it.
All of these trainings will be overseen by a lama who is well versed in such activities and teachings and never by the potential oracle himself or herself. Blessings from the lama is extremely important to enable the oracle to take trance of the Dharma protector. Without the Lama's blessing, the Dharma protector will not and never enter the oracle, as the Lama is always higher than the Dharma protector.
If you want to criticize the Kuten lamas, first ask yourself what qualifications do you have to undergo such training? Can you go through retreats that need millions of mantras, and its not just one or two but a whole series of them! Then go through the purge from the lesser entourages....if we cannot do so we should not make nasty rumors against someone who can.
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I really want to see Dorje Shugden when he takes full trance of the Kuten. I find it really fascinating to see a monk get into full ceremonial garb and then be taken over by an Enlightened being. Oracles of Dorje Shugden haves saved the lives of great being such as His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama. If he did not listen to Dorje Shugden and just confided in Nechung, His Holiness would already be reincarnated into his 15th incarnation.
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There are many videos showing Dorje Shugden taking trance. The most recent is when He took trance in Serpom Monastery's grand opening.
TK
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Hi LH,
What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?
Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow
Dear hope rainbow,
I hope this doesn't sound too crass, but what makes an oracle unsuitable is worldly concerns.
Perhaps he's faking it for worldly rewards?
Just a thought ;)
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The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?
If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?
Kate, these are all good logical inconsistencies! I'd like to know the answers too.
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Hi LH,
What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?
Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow
Dear hope rainbow,
I hope this doesn't sound too crass, but what makes an oracle unsuitable is worldly concerns.
Perhaps he's faking it for worldly rewards?
Just a thought ;)
I do agree with Hope Rainbow that what makes an oracle unsuitable is perhaps he is faking it for worldly rewards.
I heard from a friend quite some time ago that there was this person who took trance in the presence of the Guru quite often. This Guru reconfirmed with the Protector whether or not this person is a suitable oracle. The Protector confirmed this and the Guru gave His blessings for this person to be trained as an oracle.
After going through of the retreats and training required to become an oracle, this person became a very successful and well known oracle in the place he resides, helping and healing a lot of people.
However, greed, name, fame and power soon became too 'attractive' for this oracle who even went against his Guru.
From what i heard after that was the Guru forbids the Protector to take trance in this oracle. In the beginning, this oracle faked taking trance. However, people soon lost faith in this oracle and the centre where this oracle was from became less popular.
This shows that the protector listens and take instructions from the Lama. The downfall of an oracle is due to his or her attachments to worldly materials.
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Thank you all for your well thought out presentation of thoughts and points of view. I have learnt a lot from just reading the debate that is going on in this thread.
May I humbly add that I believe reliability and consistency of oracles depends strongly on whether they are channeling enlightened or unenlightened beings. Oracles for enlightened Buddha should communicate from a level of complete clairvoyance when in trance. Thus, the accuracy of their prophesies are always reliable. On the contrary, relying on oracles of unenlightened being, we are relying on a view that is still limited. Thus, their prophesies should have some short-comings naturally.
I was fortunate enough to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle in trance. The energy the oracle emits is to compassionate and “clean”. The responses to the questions presented were all accurately as proven by the passing of time.
Perhaps, regardless of our stand on this matter, we should take a moment to actually appreciate the beautiful image shared. To have the opportunity to see an authentic oracle who has served and benefited so many people, we are truly blessed. We should also consider that although some authentic oracles may give inaccurate predictions, they must have done some good (probably more than less) for others, which is another plus point that deserves acknowledgement.
How can an authentic oracle of an enlightened being give inaccurate predictions? Unless you are talking about authentic oracles of non enlightened beings like Nechung. That said, with regards to Nechung and "consultations" by HHDL... sometimes I wonder if these affairs are generally all played out for the other people in the room/hall. Surely HHDL an emanation of Chenrezig needs no oracle taking trance of Nechung an unenlightened being to tell HH what to do and what advice to heed.
Perhap there is more than really meets the eye with these theatrics! The thing to question is, do us lay people believe more in the mystical rather than what is living and breathing in front of us? For example our own teachers...
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More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".
This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:
* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?
Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.
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More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".
This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:
* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?
Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.
I totally agree with what Kris said here....very logical if we think deeper. Why would we persistently ask for proof for higher beings taking trance in oracles and not for those whereby people are pocessed by ghosts? Why do we selectively question the authenticity of oracles and higher beings who can actually use oracles as a medium to convey advices to us?
I was looking through my photo file and am glad I finally found these pictures.
I have the good fortune to meet with the DS oracle on a trip to Nepal on 2004 at HE Dagom Rinpoche's ladrang, Dagom Rinpoche was still alive. You can all see in the following pics that Dagom Rinpoche was on the right hand side of the pictures. I personally witnessed that King Dorje Shugden came for a very short time to give blessing to all of us that were present, threw out protector rice and than came the peaceful messenger Karche Marpo who answered our questions one by one slowly.
It was a very blessed occasion for me.
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Dear all, on a closer look at the pics I have just posted, I notice the presence of "orbes" ...........during the trance.....
in CIMG 0870 - On right hand side of oracle
- Head of lady with poney tail/red hair band
in CIMG 0872 - On Dagom Rinpoche's shoulder
- Near victory banner on right hand side of pic
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More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".
This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:
* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?
Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.
There's a few other methods to authenticate the oracle.
1. For one, the oracle must not know what is happening throughout the trance. The oracle must have complete lost of consciousness during the whole time in trance.
2. The oracle will consume a substantial amount of liquor and leave no breath of alcohol and signs of losing control.
3. The oracle's hat if worn on normal circumstances will most likely snap the oracle's neck.
4. The oracle in trance possesses incredible strength.
I have a few uncertainties and questions in my mind.
If we have a teacher who is far-sighted and possesses clairvoyance because of his attainments, do we need to consult an oracle? Are oracles for people who rather believe in oracles rather than their own teacher who is seen as ordinary without any powers because of the humility they display?
Where does the mind go during the whole time the protector has taken over the body as a vessel. Does anybody know?
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There's a few other methods to authenticate the oracle.
1. For one, the oracle must not know what is happening throughout the trance. The oracle must have complete lost of consciousness during the whole time in trance.
2. The oracle will consume a substantial amount of liquor and leave no breath of alcohol and signs of losing control.
3. The oracle's hat if worn on normal circumstances will most likely snap the oracle's neck.
4. The oracle in trance possesses incredible strength.
I have a few uncertainties and questions in my mind.
If we have a teacher who is far-sighted and possesses clairvoyance because of his attainments, do we need to consult an oracle? Are oracles for people who rather believe in oracles rather than their own teacher who is seen as ordinary without any powers because of the humility they display?
Where does the mind go during the whole time the protector has taken over the body as a vessel. Does anybody know?
If we have a teacher of such calibre, and even if we dont have a teacher of such calibre, we should just trust the teacher all the way. However since humans are social creatures and they tend to follow the crowd rather than stick to the 1-2 people they know, some teachers find it very difficult to make the student see the truth and reasoning behind his or her ideas, therefore oracles will have to be employed.
Logically, we do not need to consult an oracle but there are 2 factors that come in mind: 1) Do we need to burden our teachers with questions that requires clairvoyance to verify? if we do but the teacher chooses to be humble or that he will see that it is not easy for us to accept his advice, he will "consult an oracle" to help convince us. 2) With so much distractions and so many teachers, if we feel that we need to listen to only our teacher and he introduces a challenging idea for us, can we accept it or do we need "backup?" If we do need backup, the teacher will again consult the oracle for our sakes.
Oracles are there to vouch for the teacher, or if the student has a question that is not proper to ask to a teacher, like for example if they have obstacles, or if they need help, how can you ask your Guru to clear your obstacles? How rude and inconsiderate!! Therefore oracles/Dharma protectors manifests so that we can direct our problems there and get the appropriate solutions for our Dharma obstacles.
For your last question, when a person takes trance, the consciousness is temporarily disengaged from the body including the brain so they are no longer able to perceive anything through their senses. They are not "outside" of the body, but still remains inside, just disengaged. The protector wil take control of the body and its winds and channels and due to a difference in energy the protector will oracle's organs will expand to fit the energy.
I am not too sure if this is how it works but through my logic and reasoning and understanding of the mind, this is the most logical explanation that i can think of.
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Agreed Thaimonk! Me too, I have always been amazed by the process of a trance. I love watching videos of oracles taking trance, through watching I learnt a lot as well :)
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I have seen a trance by the oracle few times and I count myself very fortunate. I noticed the Oracle keep wiping his face and asked a monk why. He said that the Protector is purifying our negative karma. Wow. How fortunate for those present.
I is also amazing that the Oracle could wear the very heavy Protector hat, which I understand is tens of kilos. Normal people will have their necks broken by the weight and motions, which is very dynamic.
I also know that the advise given by the Protector are always beneficial and always comes true if follow with faithand Guru Devotion. Again, I have witnessed that.
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I cannot agree with you more, thaimonk! The art of superior beings taking over a human body in order to communicate with us and give us teachings is truly amazing. Anyone who gets to meet the oracle and experience the feeling of having Dorje Shugden so physically near you, is very very lucky and should be extremely grateful to be blessed by the presence of Dorje Shugden. I personally envy you, thaimonk. I have never seen Dorje Shugden take full trance of the Kuten, i really would like to someday. It would be an experience that would really change my perspective of life and dharma. Thank you for sharing the picture with us, i feel as though the picture really shows a lot about the trance itself. Very interesting to see.