dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: jeremyg on February 29, 2012, 11:36:23 AM
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(http://wtfhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/colorized-burning-monk-photo.jpg)
For me this is one of the most powerful images that has ever existed in humanity. A picture that can convey so many messages, so many different messages of faith and devotion so strong. If only we could be like this.
Here is a short background on the image:
"Thích Qu?ng ??c (i/?t?t? ?kw?? ?d?k/ tich kwong duuk; ???; 1897 – 11 June 1963, born Lâm V?n T?c), was a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist monk who burned himself to death at a busy Saigon road intersection on 11 June 1963. ??c was protesting the persecution of Buddhists by South Vietnam's Roman Catholic government led by Ngô ?ình Di?m. Photos of his self-immolation were circulated widely across the world and brought attention to the policies of the Di?m regime. Malcolm Browne won a Pulitzer Prize for his renowned photograph of the monk's death. After his death, his body was re-cremated, but his heart remained intact. This was interpreted as a symbol of compassion and led Buddhists to revere him as a bodhisattva, heightening the impact of his death on the public psyche."
There is even a memorial in his name at the site where he burned himself:
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1094/897409228_158cde5888_z.jpg?zz=1)
To have devotion like this bodhisattva, would allow our practice would excel immensely. He literally sacrificed his own life for what he believed in. Such an act would have probably changed the mind of millions, thank buddha that it was photographed. What I learned from this is that there are people out there who are willing to give up everything. He knew that what he was doing would be the right thing and would help people. In my view, he died for others.
We should work harder because of people like this and benefit others. We should push ourselves further because of people like this and benefit others. I am almost certain that none of us would be able to kill ourselves for a cause like this one. One thing we can do in relation to the ban is spread Dorje Shugden, let Dorje Shugden help others too. We will sacrifice as much of samsara to do so, as we cannot do what ??c did. Let this image inspire us, and make us push ourselves further.
Being able to give up everything for something you believe in. If that isn't inspiring, I don't know what is.
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Forgive me western mentality but to me this is a waste of a precious human life. I am in no way belittling the memory of such an obviously holy monk (based on the accounts of his leaving behind the relic of his unburned heart).
The photo does indeed paint a thousand words but does it truly paint purely positive words? I am of two minds when it comes to this. Are we not supposed to treasure our most opportune condition to practice which is our very human lives? This being was a monk and he lived THE path... but surely the "message" he is sending could be misconstrued as a waste!
Not everybody thinks with a Dharmic perspective. In fact, very little of us do... we try but the very fact we are still in samsara says a lot. On that note, let me once again say, that by no means am I trying to taint the memory of this monk... what I am merely doing is giving a different perspective on what this image "may" portray. This is after all a forum and it should help us better understand life and ourselves in the process!
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Prior to that sad event of Thich Quang Duc’s self immolation, the Government of the new Republic of South Vietnam had progressively exercised policies that were biased against people of the Buddhist faith. The Buddhist people were even prohibited from flying Buddhist flags in celebration of Wesak.
That led to the protest by a Buddhist monk, Thich Tri Quang who called for widespread demonstrations against President Ngo - demonstration that were quashed violently by the government.
The peaceful protest and the harsh response from Ngo’s government led to another monk, Thich Quang Duc’s to his act of self sacrifice which essentially turned the tide against the Roman Catholic President Ngo Dinh Diem.
More monks sacrificed themselves by self immolation and the government responded brutally with what came to be known as the August raid which involved the beating of monks, mass destruction of Buddhist holy relics and the confiscation of Thich Quang Duc’s cremation remains, including his heart.
Eventually President Ngong was assassinated in a coup d’état.
I personally find this post difficult to comment on. On the one hand, I hugely admire and appreciate the selfless acts of the monks in this unfortunate episode in Vietnam’s history and I can see clearly how the actions of the monks initiated the turning of the tide against cruel oppression. On the other hand I wonder about the wisdom of religious and spiritual community taking part in politics of state which history has shown time and time again, has a way of corrupting the soul of spirituality.
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Wow, this is a very powerful image in deed.
I've heard of a story almost similar to this one. There was a monk who when he enter clearlight , he was a very higly attained Lama. When his physical body was being cremated in the furnase, after the fire cooled down, they found pieces of the holy body that was not affected by the fire. Lamas that attain this are lamas that have gained perfection in that particular teaching/medhod. The picture is also very reassuring in the sence that other lineages also can bring us to enlightenemtn.
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Forgive me western mentality but to me this is a waste of a precious human life. I am in no way belittling the memory of such an obviously holy monk (based on the accounts of his leaving behind the relic of his unburned heart).
The photo does indeed paint a thousand words but does it truly paint purely positive words? I am of two minds when it comes to this. Are we not supposed to treasure our most opportune condition to practice which is our very human lives? This being was a monk and he lived THE path... but surely the "message" he is sending could be misconstrued as a waste!
Not everybody thinks with a Dharmic perspective. In fact, very little of us do... we try but the very fact we are still in samsara says a lot. On that note, let me once again say, that by no means am I trying to taint the memory of this monk... what I am merely doing is giving a different perspective on what this image "may" portray. This is after all a forum and it should help us better understand life and ourselves in the process!
PC,
I find this image very shocking and very powerful indeed, and this is why this monk eventually did it. It was serving a purpose.
This monk had a very steady meditation practice, for who could stay still while feeling the pain of one's flesh burning and life leaving...
One of the paramita's is GENEROSITY, we give to others, without any feeling of loss, and skillfully (we don't give a bottle of whisky to an alcoholic for example). We give our skills, our time, our money, our friends, our jobs, our families, we use all this to help others, and we also give our bodies. This monk gave his body to help others, and with the motivation that I am sure was his, together with the boost this gave to the Vietnamese, I am pretty sure he has gotten the 18 opportune conditions again in his next life.
I say, there is no difference between the act of this monk and the act of Jesus Christ being crucified. They both gave their bodies, and that act of generosity was so potent that in every church and in every christian house, there is a cross to be reminded of the level of commitment Jesus had towards sentient beings.
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I agree with Hope Rainbow!
This holy monk gave up his precious human life to make a statement! And it worked!
I kept staring at the image of the monk engulfed in flame, despite the pain of being burned alive (this is could be the most horrible way to die, I think), his facial expression was absolutely calm and his body was still, no sign of struggle.. I liken this to be the same with devotees of other faiths (Like Hindu during Thaipusum festival; Taiwanese stepping thru red hot charcoal bare footed..etc.etc) where they hurt themselves with sharp objects but came out ok, no pain..
This show we could separate our mind from physical body and don't feel the pain - hence proof that our body is just 'vehicle' for our mindstream.
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This is an unselfish act of a monk who sacrifices his life for a good cause. It creates a great impact on our mind. It is not a pleasant way to die, but looking at the photo, we can see that he remained calm and steady despite the fire engulfing him. I guess when the fire engulfed him; he had already detached himself from his physical body. A true bodhisattva, his heart remained intact even after he was burnt and re-cremated, a sign of a highly attained being.
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Thank you for this powerful image! It is sad to see this but at the same time, I have to "praise" this holy monk who really gave his life for others. Took on the suffering for others! I was amazed to the fact that he didn't even moved and as I read, according to the report, the heart remained intact! It is truly a sign of compassion. I hope this image serves a reminder and inspiration to all the much discriminated Shugden practitioners who have all took on the burden and hardship for being loyal to this sacred practice. And we are talking about the struggle since the ban in 96. How I wish the ban can be lifted as soon as possible! May it come and no time!
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When I saw this image about 2 years ago, the first thing that came into my mine was how amazingly strong his mind is to endure the pain. I heard that burning to death is one of the most painful way to die. If he has achieved the highest of meditation to be able to do this, he will not feel the pain. If he has achieved the highest meditation, he is also highly attained.
What Positive Change said about a waste of human life is something to think about. It got me thinking for a while. However, a mother can give up her life to save her child, a lama can give up his life so that a student can transform, some work tirelessly till death to serve others. Human life is precious to us unattained ones who may not attain this precious life again. Hence, we have to make full use of this precious life to generate as much merits as possible and also be able to serve others more. If one act of true compassion can help many, why not?
Boddhisattvas who has control over their rebirth should not be worried about not coming back as a human ;D
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When I saw this image about 2 years ago, the first thing that came into my mine was how amazingly strong his mind is to endure the pain. I heard that burning to death is one of the most painful way to die. If he has achieved the highest of meditation to be able to do this, he will not feel the pain. If he has achieved the highest meditation, he is also highly attained.
What Positive Change said about a waste of human life is something to think about. It got me thinking for a while. However, a mother can give up her life to save her child, a lama can give up his life so that a student can transform, some work tirelessly till death to serve others. Human life is precious to us unattained ones who may not attain this precious life again. Hence, we have to make full use of this precious life to generate as much merits as possible and also be able to serve others more. If one act of true compassion can help many, why not?
Boddhisattvas who has control over their rebirth should not be worried about not coming back as a human ;D
I like what you said here Aurore... as it all relates back to one's motivation. I am sure there is negative karma associated with taking one's own life regardless of the motivation (do correct me if I am wrong on this point), however, if the motivation behind the action is pure and of benefit to others, there is also the good karma that comes into play... it does not necessarily cancel out the negative but it certainly adds to the merit bank as a debit note!
However I still believe that the "perception" of self immolation can be seen as potentially extremist and may not necessarily work in non Dharmic minds. That was my point to begin with. We have to, as Buddhist be careful in what we project always don't we?
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This is interesting topic.
Looking at the action of the monk we will have two perceptions:
1. Waste of human life
2. True compassion to sacrifice himself to benefit other
Personally in this context I would want to choose no 2 as the real motivation. The sign of his heart was still intact also shown that he had achieved certain attainment. The action might look wild but it doesn’t harm anyone but just himself. The action might not be agreeable by certain people but I believe this monk has come to a state where he felt that by doing such will send a strong message for good. Only the bodhisattva will have such action.
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I have seen a similar picture of monk burning them selves to protest about 10 years ago. When I see it I was in shock and I had mix feelings as I don’t quite understand the action. Thank you for explaining and sharing this picture.
The monks don’t even move while he is on fire. If I’m on fire I would have jump around and call for help. This also shows that he is in a selfless state to benefit more others and also show that he has full control of his meditation state.
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It's so sad that sometimes we need to perform something so outrages in order to be heard. It is so amazing that he Thích Qu?ng ??c sacrificed himself for something that he truly believed in. Can't imagine how would it be in flame the WHOLE BODY!!!
The event reminds me of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen whereby he sacrifices himself too in order to continue to benefit sentient beings. This shows how highly attained they were, so to all Dorje Shugden practisioner, please continue to spread DS practise in whichever way you think it is beneficial as how Thích Qu?ng ??c did.
Below is some information about Thích Qu?ng ??c:
Biography of Thích Qu?ng ??c (Source Wikipedia)
Accounts of the life of Thích Qu?ng ??c are derived from information disseminated by Buddhist organizations. These record him as being born in the village of Hoi Khanh, in V?n Ninh District of Khanh Hoa province in central Vietnam. He was born as Lâm V?n T?c, one of seven children born to Lâm H?u ?ng and his wife, Nguy?n Th? N??ng. At the age of seven, he left worldly life to study Buddhism under Hòa th??ng Thích Ho?ng Thâm, who was his maternal uncle and spiritual master. Thích Ho?ng Thâm raised him as a son and Lâm V?n T?c changed his name to Nguy?n V?n Khi?t. At the age of 15, he took the samanera (novice) vows and was ordained as a monk at age 20 under the dharma name Thích Qu?ng ??c. After ordination, he traveled to a mountain near Ninh Hòa, vowing to live the life of a solitary Buddhism-practicing hermit for three years. He returned in later life to open the Thien Loc pagoda at his mountain retreat.
After his self-imposed isolation ended, he began to travel around central Vietnam expounding the dharma. After two years, he went into retreat at the S?c T? Thiên Ân pagoda near Nha Trang. In 1932, he was appointed an inspector for the Buddhist Association in Ninh Hòa before becoming the inspector of monks in his home province of Khánh Hòa. During this period in central Vietnam, he was responsible for the construction of 14 temples.[6] In 1934, he moved to southern Vietnam and traveled throughout the provinces spreading Buddhist teachings. During his time in southern Vietnam, he also spent two years in Cambodia studying the Theravada Buddhist tradition.
After his return from Cambodia, he oversaw the construction of a further 17 new temples during his time in the south. The last of the 31 new temples that he was responsible for constructing was the Quán Th? Âm pagoda in the Phú Nhu?n district of Gia ?ính on the outskirts of Saigon.[6] The street on which the temple stands is now named in ??c's honor. After the temple-building phase, ??c was appointed to serve as the Chairman of the Panel on Ceremonial Rites of the Congregation of Vietnamese Monks, and as abbot of the Ph??c Hoà pagoda, which was the initial location of the Association for Buddhist Studies of Vietnam (ABSV).[6] When the office of the ABSV was relocated to the Xá L?i pagoda, the main pagoda of Saigon, ??c resigned.
Video of Thích Qu?ng ??c's self immolation
Protesta Silenciosa Thich Quang Duc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwsomcfQElY#)
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The video is so powerful, oh my god. Right here, you see a holy monk set himself on fire for what he believes in, for the sake of others. I cannot begin to imagine the physical pain one would undergo, burning themselves alive, it must take amazing strength, will-power, and mental endurance to do what Thich Quang Duc did.
But why did he do what he did? Yes, indeed to some, some might think that he was too extreme, but in being extreme, it is only then when you can have an impact on others to transform their minds, to benefit them, to influence them, fight for your cause and to lead by action. You benefit others through your body speech and mind, in this case, Thich Quang Duc benefitted others through his body and mind. However, compassionate deeds are more often than not, criticized, but how many of us can sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others?
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This image of the monk setting himself on fire is so shocking! And like PC, I also think it is a waste of a precious human life, upon first look at the picture. Is it necessary to take your life to put your point across? With you gone, can you be assured that someone else will be as passionate as you were to carry on your work?
It was indeed very selfless of him to offer himself up to fight for the cause for the sake of others. And his heart was still intact after that intense heat? It definitely belonged to someone attained.
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Thich Quang Duc is a Bodhisattva, for sure, to sacrifice his life in an act of self-immolation with the compassionate motive of making a strong statement and hence benefiting others. His death was followed by a series of other similar noble acts of self-immolation by other monks. I am deeply touched,yet find this act to be shocking because of its 'violent' nature.
On the other hand, i have also read stories of very realized Tibetan Masters, who, out of great compassion - not wanting their blood to be on the hands of the Chinese invaders of Tibet - leave their bodies in self-initiated powa. Their deaths are not violent and are not shocking to anyone's sensibilities. In fact, I find myself more appreciative of this gentler nature of compassion - this sacrificing of one's life in a gentler manner - because it does not 'place one's violent end at the door of one's 'enemy'.
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June 11, 1963, in Saigon, Vietnam, a Buddhist monk, Thich Quang Duc immolated himself in a busy intersection. As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.
This self-immolation signifies something deeper than merely the legal concept of suicide or the physical action of self-destruction". This is because highly attained beings leave marks behind after their death such as their tongue , heart and eyes despite going thorough the intense heat at the funeral pyre.
After his funeral, where his remains were finally reduced to ashes, Quang Duc's heart, which had not burned, was retrieved, enshrined, and treated as a sacred relic. Now what does this mean? That he is a highly attained being. And if he is so, the motivation must have been of highest level. He did not die in vain nor was he an attention seeker!
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Wow! I am so amazed at his tenacity. He must have some sort of attainment and more importantly, his ability to withstand extreme physical distress from being burnt to death and yet appear to be in control of his body to remain in full meditative posture. I take refuge with that tenacity and control of the mind. I hope my practice will help me to come to have that level of control of the mind. That itself is truly a powerful spiritual attainment.
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i saw the image of monk burning himself similar like this about 9 years ago, at first i was quite shocked but later when i looked at his sitting posture which is in meditation posture and he doesn't seem to be worried or scared of the fire, instead he looks so calm and peaceful like in deep meditation. what i learned from see this image is the monk used his life to benefit other even until in his last breath if this will create a peaceful later.
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Thich Quang Duc is a Bodhisattva, for sure, to sacrifice his life in an act of self-immolation with the compassionate motive of making a strong statement and hence benefiting others. His death was followed by a series of other similar noble acts of self-immolation by other monks. I am deeply touched,yet find this act to be shocking because of its 'violent' nature.
On the other hand, i have also read stories of very realized Tibetan Masters, who, out of great compassion - not wanting their blood to be on the hands of the Chinese invaders of Tibet - leave their bodies in self-initiated powa. Their deaths are not violent and are not shocking to anyone's sensibilities. In fact, I find myself more appreciative of this gentler nature of compassion - this sacrificing of one's life in a gentler manner - because it does not 'place one's violent end at the door of one's 'enemy'.
Violent or not-violent is really in the eyes of the receiver. I think for Thick Quang Duc, he was really determined and yet calm....before and during the whole process. If we could only understand the reason behind this act and the decision and determination to sacrifice his precious life in order to get a message across, I call him a hero. A hero with a selfless persue and willing to do whatever it takes to even to get one message across. Obviously other means had been in vain before the monk picked this option.
Like a mother, when soft and gentle words do not kick any sense from a child, then she has to revert to "wrathful' means.....sometimes the appearance may look violent....but the core of her motivation is still gentle and soft, full of love and compassion. Like Thick Quang Duc, his intention was really compassion and love, his soul was gentle and soft....even though he engulfed himself in the violent flames of self immolation.
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I agree with Positive Change that it is such a waste of the monk’s precious human life. Isn’t self-immolation considered killing that leads to heavy negative karma? It may be misconstrued that self-immolation is okay. I personally feel that there are other more skilful means than sacrificing a precious human life for example like what Vajrastorm had mentioned about self-initiated powa?
Perhaps this highly attained monk had the wisdom to know that sacrificing his life was the best method to stop the persecution of Buddhists by the then South Vietnam's Roman Catholic government.
Having said the above, i really respect and salute the monk for his courage and selfless act! Om Mani Padme Hum.
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This image is really very powerful. It brings tears to see a selfless monk self immolate for the sake of others. Based on the results after his death, Buddhist practitioners were free to continue with their practice. Whether or not this selfless act was a waste of his life is very subjective.
My opinion is that it wasn't a waste. Thich Quang Duc was obviously a highly attained practitioner if not a Bodhisattva. A clear sign is his intact heart. Hence, his motivation is that of compassion. With this motivation, how would the act be a waste?
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But why did he do what he did? Yes, indeed to some, some might think that he was too extreme, but in being extreme, it is only then when you can have an impact on others to transform their minds, to benefit them, to influence them, fight for your cause and to lead by action. You benefit others through your body speech and mind, in this case, Thich Quang Duc benefitted others through his body and mind. However, compassionate deeds are more often than not, criticized, but how many of us can sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others?
I could not watch the video in its entirety in one sitting. I had to stop and get back to it a few times. It was heart wrenching! I did not understand why the police (military?) we barricading the other monks from going near but in the end of the video, what touched me the most was the fact that EVERYONE, monks AND police were prostrating to the highly attained monk... WOW!
And Manjushri i do agree with your statement above as after so many years have past, we are still talking/debating/discussing about it and sharing the very action he performed. His action did make an impact so strong, whether one views it as negative or positive IT HAS caused a rippling effect across this vast lake of ours... Incredible compassion!
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Thich Quang Duc is a Bodhisattva, for sure, to sacrifice his life in an act of self-immolation with the compassionate motive of making a strong statement and hence benefiting others. His death was followed by a series of other similar noble acts of self-immolation by other monks. I am deeply touched,yet find this act to be shocking because of its 'violent' nature.
On the other hand, i have also read stories of very realized Tibetan Masters, who, out of great compassion - not wanting their blood to be on the hands of the Chinese invaders of Tibet - leave their bodies in self-initiated powa. Their deaths are not violent and are not shocking to anyone's sensibilities. In fact, I find myself more appreciative of this gentler nature of compassion - this sacrificing of one's life in a gentler manner - because it does not 'place one's violent end at the door of one's 'enemy'.
Violent or not-violent is really in the eyes of the receiver. I think for Thick Quang Duc, he was really determined and yet calm....before and during the whole process. If we could only understand the reason behind this act and the decision and determination to sacrifice his precious life in order to get a message across, I call him a hero. A hero with a selfless persue and willing to do whatever it takes to even to get one message across. Obviously other means or methods had been in vain before the monk picked this option.
Like a mother, when soft and gentle words do not kick any sense from a child, then she has to revert to "wrathful' means.....sometimes the appearance may look violent....but the core of her motivation is still gentle and soft, full of love and compassion. Like Thick Quang Duc, his intention was really compassion and love, his soul was gentle and soft....even though he engulfed himself in the violent flames of self immolation.
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"However I still believe that the "perception" of self immolation can be seen as potentially extremist and may not necessarily work in non Dharmic minds. That was my point to begin with. We have to, as Buddhist be careful in what we project always don't we?" quote by Positive Change.
I totally agree with Pc , it would not be wrong to say that the vast majority of the viewers who saw the monk burning alive , would describe it as ; shocking , terrifying , sad , traumatic and etc . Few would really call it inspiring I guess , unless they are supporters of suicide as a form or method to achieve a goal !
Throughout the history of mankind , the act of suicide has been used by different races , religion , political denominations , armies and now even terrorists . These acts have one thing in common , it relies on the shock factor ! The more "shocking" the better because it needs to capture the attention and emotion of those who witness or perceive it . This is proven by words used to describe it , it has undeniably affected all those who saw it . Those graphic details are burnt into every single persons mindstreams ! Whether , they like it or not it was not their choice ( especially those who were on site who didn't have a clue as to what was going to happen )
To that extent of forcing upon the rest of mankind to witness that shocking act , it succeeded 100% . But did it truly achieve its objective or goal ? That my friends , remains unaswered . What was sure to follow was many more monks followed suit and met fiery end . Did the so called pro Roman Catholic Government give in ? No , they did not, in fact they retaliated with more violence , the more conventional type of course ie they hurt those who were going to hurt themselves ! They clobbered and bashed those who protested.
So the moral of the story is , as we were all taught by our parents , teachers , elders , pastors , priest , imams , monks , nuns and gurus , that violence is not the solution and that violence only begets more violence ! Classic examples : did the great Gandhi kill himself to win independence for India ? Did mother Theresa burn or crucify herself to feed the hungry ? Did Moses not lead the Jews away from Egypt in the face of oppression. I dread the thought of Moses setting himself on fire ! Who would have lead the Jews I wonder ? In recent times , has Japanese harakiri and kamikazee warriors won the war ? Did Osama's suicide bombers win over the Americans or the world ? We all know the answer.
In conclusion , as a Buddhist , we should all make the best of this optimum human condition and not waste it. We should all walk the path and practice what we preach . Let the Dharma be exemplified in the way we lead our short human lifes.
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Self immolation is considered killing even if it is one's own life. However, it is important to realise that the intention and motivation are the fundamental causes of creation of negativities.
So if an attained monk like Thick Quang Duc gave up his life, and on cremation his heart is intact, can we even doubt his motivation.
Right or wrong the result is that the Vietnamese government has seen changed and new temples are built so that Buddhism can once again be practised in this ex communist country.
This may be what Thick Quang Duc sacrificed his life for.