dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ensapa on January 10, 2012, 01:25:00 AM
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Hey guys,
I've revisited the Yellow Book again (http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Yellow-Book.pdf (http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Yellow-Book.pdf)) and i do realize that although the translation is somewhat impartial, but it does stress the point to not practice other traditions when we are Gelugs, but it seems that it is translated in a way that it makes it sound like Dorje Shugden punish the 'offenders' when in reality it is the result of their own negative karma. That part was not explained at all as if to create misunderstandings on purpose. The book also refers to Dorje Shugden by his derogatory name, gyalchen. All these clues point to the translator not being neutral and being against Dorje Shugden from the start.
But what is interesting is, Zemey Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche never intended to ever publish this information out but somehow it was. What is the main reason to do that if not to incite something?
Also, interesting to note is that Dorje Shugden has warned the Panchen Lama to not practice Nyigma Termas, and our current HHDL is doing the same (if I am not mistaken) could it be that this caused HHDL to 'dislike' Dorje Shugden? or maybe HHDL is doing this to protect Gelugs who are not stable in their tradition and mix and match teachings from other traditions from corrupting Gelugpa and themselves? Thus the ban to separate these two categories of people?
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If a person never has the karma to be harmed can even Dorje Shugden harm this person?
It is said external enemies can harm our bodies, but the three poisons in our minds can send us to hell in an instant. What is more important to overcome the three poisons or a seemingly external evil?
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If a person never has the karma to be harmed can even Dorje Shugden harm this person?
It is said external enemies can harm our bodies, but the three poisons in our minds can send us to hell in an instant. What is more important to overcome the three poisons or a seemingly external evil?
actually, that is not the real issue with this book. the real issue is that it was translated on purpose to make it sound like Dorje Shugden is a very overzealous Dharma protector who punishes people swiftly who does not tow in line. It was also contorted in such a way that it makes Dorje Shugden seem that he is against the Nyigmas, almost all of the lamas he "punished" practiced termas to "incur his wrath". HHDL was so angry and upset when this book was published that he refused to attend his long life prayers.
it is very clear that whoever who wrote/translate this book had the intention to split the sangha for his or her own agendas. If we as Dorje Shugden supporters can refute this book, i am sure the ban can be lifted sooner because the ban came directly from this book. However, the stories itself came from Trijang Rinpoche, told to Zemey Rinpoche...so we cannot say they are false, but to me it was obviously distorted as all the bad things that happened to those people were caused not by karma but by the "miraculous power of Dorje Shugden"....i dont think a high lama would even use that phrase. It was obviously added to implicate something...
as Dorje Shugden practitioners and supporters, what do you feel after reading it?
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I've read it. It's very hard for me to believe those stories were from Zemey Rinpoche, and Zemey Rinpoche got those stories from Trijang Rinpoche! I mean, there is possibility that people changed the original stories that told by Trijang Rinpoche to Zemey Rinpoche? I guess... As Trijang Rinpoche is a famous Dorje Shugden's practitioner.
There are few points i wondered.
1. If the consequences of practicing Dorje Shugden was that bad, how could the stories written in such a short length, without explaining more, give more evident and prove to the world the background stories?
2. Some of people in the stories even get killed or went crazy because of the "miraculous power of Dorje Shugden", but they never tell us more about that. A Dharma Protector is even powerful than the nature/law of karma, that everything bad happened to those people in the stories were all because Dorje Shugden!Even the great attained lama Pabongka Rinpoche was harmed by the Dorje Shugden. How could a great attained lama been harmed by the protector(or the evil spirit) so easily?
The stories just sounds funny to me. Maybe all the stories need more evidence and explaination.
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Geshe kelsang has said of it that the stories where just stories a collection of folk tales that where retold finding actual evidence to support the claims it makes is another matter.
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I've read it. It's very hard for me to believe those stories were from Zemey Rinpoche, and Zemey Rinpoche got those stories from Trijang Rinpoche! I mean, there is possibility that people changed the original stories that told by Trijang Rinpoche to Zemey Rinpoche? I guess... As Trijang Rinpoche is a famous Dorje Shugden's practitioner.
There are few points i wondered.
1. If the consequences of practicing Dorje Shugden was that bad, how could the stories written in such a short length, without explaining more, give more evident and prove to the world the background stories?
2. Some of people in the stories even get killed or went crazy because of the "miraculous power of Dorje Shugden", but they never tell us more about that. A Dharma Protector is even powerful than the nature/law of karma, that everything bad happened to those people in the stories were all because Dorje Shugden!Even the great attained lama Pabongka Rinpoche was harmed by the Dorje Shugden. How could a great attained lama been harmed by the protector(or the evil spirit) so easily?
The stories just sounds funny to me. Maybe all the stories need more evidence and explaination.
It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students. It is horrible to see a student betray his own Lama in this way after all the years of care, love and guidance because of personal vendettas. I am pretty sure the stories were meant to make Gelugpas not indulge in non Gelug teachings, but the way it was written and translated was distorted in a way that it makes it look odd. I am sure there is a commentary to it but it is omitted on purpose for obvious reasons.
Although these stories have no backing, but it seems that they were derived from the unpublished excerpts of Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors and perhaps was told orally from Trijang Rinpoche to Zemey Rinpoche. This is sadly a well known fact so we cannot write it off as folk tales, but we can read and look past the meaning and distorted translation to get the real message instead of fear that was twisted it to be. If we can refute the book and clarify it, I am sure the ban can be lifted as the basis of the ban has been destroyed.
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It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students. It is horrible to see a student betray his own Lama in this way after all the years of care, love and guidance because of personal vendettas. I am pretty sure the stories were meant to make Gelugpas not indulge in non Gelug teachings, but the way it was written and translated was distorted in a way that it makes it look odd. I am sure there is a commentary to it but it is omitted on purpose for obvious reasons.
Do you have the sourse for this information?
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It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students. It is horrible to see a student betray his own Lama in this way after all the years of care, love and guidance because of personal vendettas. I am pretty sure the stories were meant to make Gelugpas not indulge in non Gelug teachings, but the way it was written and translated was distorted in a way that it makes it look odd. I am sure there is a commentary to it but it is omitted on purpose for obvious reasons.
Do you have the sourse for this information?
The Yellow Book was written in 1970 and published in 1973. According to the text 'Selected Writings of Kyebje Zemey Rinpoche', Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche taught extensivley from 1970 until 1984 at Gaden and at various other places in India and Nepal. He then retired from public life due to a stroke he had in 1984.
Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche himself chose what to include in his collected works, which were published in 1994.
The Yellow Book can be found in volume 2 (Kha).
I am sure that it was never intended for general readership however; like many Tantric texts it must be understood in context.
Much like Shakyamuni when he declared "Kill your mother, kill your father", if we take that at face value we are in trouble. It is the underlining meaning of the words that must be tapped into. If all of the Tantras were picked apart and taken as literally as the Yellow Book has, there would be no end to the misunderstanding and confusion.
As for the student who helped Rinpoche publish his texts, Geshe Thubten Jinpa has never 'betrayed' his Guru that I am aware of. My Teacher here at Zemey Labrang speaks very highly of him.
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It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students.
The book was published in 1973 and Zemey Rinpoche presided over Zong Rinpoche's parinirvana in 1984 so the above statement makes no sense. Please get your facts correct.
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Also how many people are of Lama Tsonghapa's calibre in this day and age? To be able to combine the teachings form the various lineages and even come out with a new lineage for the the future. Especially if we have not gotten the permission from our lamas to do other types of practises?
I mean does the Gelug not have the practises that can bring us to enlightenment ? If the Gelug tradition has and that is a fact why does one need to look for this or that outside of the traditions. Looking for practises outside of the tradition without a valid real purpose sounds like the Gelug system of study is incomplete and does not provide the avenue for someone to become enlightened.
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It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students. It is horrible to see a student betray his own Lama in this way after all the years of care, love and guidance because of personal vendettas. I am pretty sure the stories were meant to make Gelugpas not indulge in non Gelug teachings, but the way it was written and translated was distorted in a way that it makes it look odd. I am sure there is a commentary to it but it is omitted on purpose for obvious reasons.
Do you have the sourse for this information?
It was an article that I read on this issue many years ago. I cant seem to find it again. The text says (from memory) "After the publication, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche refused to speak until he passed away". Hmm. maybe the article wasnt accurate. Oh well.
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It was not hard to believe at all. Zemey Rinpoche stopped teaching immediately after this book was published and entered clear light immediately after as it was published by one of his students. It is horrible to see a student betray his own Lama in this way after all the years of care, love and guidance because of personal vendettas. I am pretty sure the stories were meant to make Gelugpas not indulge in non Gelug teachings, but the way it was written and translated was distorted in a way that it makes it look odd. I am sure there is a commentary to it but it is omitted on purpose for obvious reasons.
Do you have the sourse for this information?
It was an article that I read on this issue many years ago. I cant seem to find it again. The text says (from memory) "After the publication, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche refused to speak until he passed away". Hmm. maybe the article wasnt accurate. Oh well.
Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche was unable to speak after his 1984 stroke. Maybe the article got the facts wrong.
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Gosh. Thanks Losang Tenpa and DharmaSpace for clarifying that Zemey Rinpoche hadn't gone into clear light after the publication of the Yellow book. It's quite scary that misinformation can be so easily spread. It's always good to have sources of whatever we say to refer to for further reading etc.
Anyway, going back to the Yellow Book, as HH Trijang Rinpoche was involved in the stories, i have no doubt at all about HH Trijang Rinpoche's qualities and I am sure that there was no intention to divide the Sangha but perhaps just to emphasise that each Gelugpa student should follow his or her own lineage. The Gelugpa lineage was after all a distillation of the other Tibetan schools by Lama Tsongkhapa, so it cannot be that the other schools are looked down upon or criticised. I would think that if anything, the advice would be more about focusing on our own tradition so that we can be focused and thus achieve the intended results.
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I have a copy of the original Yellow Book and yes, the translator seems to have went out of his/her way to overemphasize/distort certain passages. Very unfortunate.
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I have a copy of the original Yellow Book and yes, the translator seems to have went out of his/her way to overemphasize/distort certain passages. Very unfortunate.
I would also speculate, based on many English grammar errors, that whoever translated the Yellow Book was not a native English speaker.
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I have a copy of the original Yellow Book and yes, the translator seems to have went out of his/her way to overemphasize/distort certain passages. Very unfortunate.
Well Tenpa-la your a resident of Zemey Ladrang perhapes it should be your task to help bring his collected works to light and make a better translation of the yellow book one that conveys an appopriate use of the english language.
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Hmm. Im new to Dorje Shugden and im wondered, what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?
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Hmm. Im new to Dorje Shugden and im wondered, what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?
In reply, I will repost what I said earlier.
I am sure that the Yellow Book was never intended for general readership however; like many Tantric texts it must be understood in context.
Much like Shakyamuni when he declared "Kill your mother, kill your father", if we take that at face value we are in trouble. It is the underlining meaning of the words that must be tapped into. If all of the Tantras were picked apart and taken as literally as the Yellow Book has, there would be no end to the misunderstanding and confusion.
The Yellow Book is no different in this regard. It must first be determined if the text was meant figuratively for a speacial reason, or literally. There is a whole genre of teachings in the Gelug lineage (trang gne) that deal with how to tell if something said should be taken literally or figuratively.
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Im still looking forward for all of your answer.
what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?
8)
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you are totally missing the point....
Many of the Tantras use very strange language about killing etc. Do we take that at face value? No. It is the same with the Yellow Book.
Yes, the book does describe the various calamities suffered by those who mixed Gelug teachings with other lineages. My point is that there was an intended meaning behind using this kind of language.
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This is also from my memory I remembered a lama said to me, that there are protectors that if you have committed a particular misdeed they will actually destroy you and send your consciousness to a pure land. In that context, that protector is actually protecting you from committing further misdeeds. Like Buddha the ship captain when he was still a bodhistattva. They destroy you from their deep compassion as they probably know you have no way of reversing the effects of your mideed and you can only head to the lower realms, so best to send you to a pure land?
Does anyone know of such a practise/protector? If I am seriously deluded please assist. thank you.
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This is also from my memory I remembered a lama said to me, that there are protectors that if you have committed a particular misdeed they will actually destroy you and send your consciousness to a pure land. In that context, that protector is actually protecting you from committing further misdeeds. Like Buddha the ship captain when he was still a bodhistattva. They destroy you from their deep compassion as they probably know you have no way of reversing the effects of your mideed and you can only head to the lower realms, so best to send you to a pure land?
Does anyone know of such a practise/protector? If I am seriously deluded please assist. thank you.
I have heard that in some rare cases, the Dharma protector will end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma. But to be honest, other than the account here in the yellow book I have never really read about it somewhere else. But like the rest of the stories in the yellow book, the story does sound weird because the protector said "no hope for you" and allowed the disease to worsen (which is, again, illogical because Buddhas or Dharmapalas never harm in this way). Perhaps the diseases was due to something else but again skewered to make it look as if it was the protector's fault.
But if Dorje Shugden does offer that, then I do sincerely pray that if in this life I am not able to practice Dharma correctly, or that I will waste it for other pursuits other than Dharma, that he would compassionately put me in another situation where it will be more conducive for practice.
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Quote from http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html (http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html)
Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.
(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)
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Quote from [url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html[/url])
Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.
(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)
Thank you Vajralight. That's a good explanation from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso regarding the Yellow Book. I agree with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I also would like to add that Dorje Shugden had to take the lives of many of these great Lamas and important people for an important reason.
His reason was of course to protect the Gaden tradition as they were in the position to pollute the tradition by mixing the lineages. He manifested such wrath because many of these Lamas were important lineage holders or people who were powerful example to the masses and they would cause great harm by mixing Nyingma and Gelug teachings. These Lamas may be able to practice them successfully but many of their followers with lesser merits will be confused if they do so. Hence, the lineage was in genuine danger and so Dorje Shugden made his move.
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Quote from [url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html[/url])
Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.
(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)
I really like the logic and reasoning re Ra Lotsawa. However, if the source of the yellow book happens to be Trijang Rinpoche, and they have proof that it is from him, how would that be refuted? By saying that no, Trijang Rinpoche did not contribute to the stories? Maybe someone could refute the yellow book and send it to HHDL or CTA.
Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.
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Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.
Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?
In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.
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Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?
In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.
I see. now I understand a little bit more. To me, the yellow book is very interesting because its publication created a massive discord back then. It was as though it was translated to implicate something. But what you said did make sense. At least the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama came back even after what he did.
The explanation you gave was excellent, but it is more towards those of our lineage. However, how do we explain this to people of other traditions who have distorted views of Dorje Shugden after reading this book. Bear in mind, this is the book that literally started the ban and "hate" against Dorje Shugden....so if we can refute it, people will be able to look at it more objectively.
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Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.
Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?
In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.
Thank you Big Uncle. I started to understand and link the facts all together. We need to achieved Bodhichitta to understand why such that wrathful ritual was carried out. By this, i have a clear picture that how the stories inside the Yellow Book has been twisted around.
thank you for clarifying my doubt in my head.
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Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?
In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.
I see. now I understand a little bit more. To me, the yellow book is very interesting because its publication created a massive discord back then. It was as though it was translated to implicate something. But what you said did make sense. At least the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama came back even after what he did.
The explanation you gave was excellent, but it is more towards those of our lineage. However, how do we explain this to people of other traditions who have distorted views of Dorje Shugden after reading this book. Bear in mind, this is the book that literally started the ban and "hate" against Dorje Shugden....so if we can refute it, people will be able to look at it more objectively.
The explanation covers all traditions. If we have affinity and received teachings from a particular lineage / Guru, we should be faithful to it and not go around mixing our Gurus and traditions like our choice of clothes or the food that we eat. Hence, these tales are not specifically being biased against Nyingma but just an example because the Lamas and people at the time favor mixing Nyingma and Gelug Dharma very much. That's not very good for the tradition long term. This is as simple as it is. We don't try to complicate it too much.
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The explanation covers all traditions. If we have affinity and received teachings from a particular lineage / Guru, we should be faithful to it and not go around mixing our Gurus and traditions like our choice of clothes or the food that we eat. Hence, these tales are not specifically being biased against Nyingma but just an example because the Lamas and people at the time favor mixing Nyingma and Gelug Dharma very much. That's not very good for the tradition long term. This is as simple as it is. We don't try to complicate it too much.
Linking that with what is happening today, where many people of today like to mix around the lineages and take what is convenient to them and say that they are not being sectarian when they use that as an excuse to hide their lack of stability and discipline. Actually, not all because kagyu and nyigma are interchangeable in terms of teachings, lineage lamas and the lineage in general. There are also cases where the lama does not care if the students run around to get teachings, and these students run around and tell everyone that their lama allows them to do that.
But I do agree it is very detrimental to the lineage as it implies that your own initial lineage is lacking something and not effective, therefore you need to run around and look for a "better" one.
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On the various lineages and mixing.
From: http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso (http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso)
Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?
GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.
Vajra
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On the various lineages and mixing.
From: [url]http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso[/url] ([url]http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso[/url])
Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?
GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.
Vajra
1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another?
2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?
3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.
4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.
Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.
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1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another?
2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?
3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.
4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.
Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.
1. Yes that makes sense.
2. It makes sense but how does it relate to Dorje Shugden?
3. There is a tale by a Nyingma lama about their protector to kills people who have stepped out of line.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5592 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5592)
There is this sentence in the article
"The wisdom mind of the dharmapalas is such that when people are cut, they are also liberated"
The ship captain who rescued 499 merchant by killing an evil merchant was using skilful means too. Are we at the level to think this or that action is not skilful?
4. Correct even the Buddha could not stop the Sakyas being massacred.
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1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another?
Although they do, that does not mean that practitioners with other agendas cannot twist the teachings to fit what they want. Most of them do it in secret as they cannot do it openly so they make implications that has double meanings, that will subconsciously mean something else. I'm just explaining what i have observed as it is quite scary to see practitioners act in this way.
2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?
This does not have anything much to do with this thread, but yes there are many cases like this, even during modern times. Isnt this how Penor Rinpoche entered clear light? Sometimes it can be scary to have a Guru, and knowing that by not changing, you end your Guru's life prematurely.
3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.
In some cases where the practitioner is too deluded, the only solution is to eject them to a pure lan (phowa) via tantric means. Death is obviously the last solution that will be used if all other methods fail. For example, having a monk who is about to create schism kiled before he could perform that act would be of more benefit than having him live and split the monastery.
4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.
One always has the karma to be killed. There is no telling if we have the karma to be killed from our countless previous lives. Even killing an ant by accident generates enough karma to get us killed. That was what happened to Nagajurna. What about us? When the karma ripens nothing can be done but here in the yellow book it is made to look as if the protector killed them.
Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.
It was from Trijang Rinpoche, distorted and translated out of context on purpose for whatever reasons the translator wanted it to be. This is why Dharma translators have to be sincere and free of the 8 worldly concerns.
Replies in blue!
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On the various lineages and mixing.
From: [url]http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso[/url] ([url]http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso[/url])
Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?
GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.
Vajra
Personally, I really do like this quote because it clarifies, literally, all of the misconceptions that come about being nonsectarian. In the general public, due to misunderstandings, being nonsectarian is to mix everything up and be open and practice every single tradition out there without any discrimination, and to hold back and focus on a particular tradition is considered as sectarian. Perhaps this was spread by CTA for their own gains, but there other more logical nonsectarian view would be that we can focus our practice on a particular tradition, and respect the rest without saying that the tradition of our focus is the best and that works as well.
Seriously, i prefer that approach than to practice every single tradition because i want results, not just blessings.
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Okay I know this is an old topic and people in this forum may think been there, discussed that and moved on. I'm new in exploring about Dorje Shugden so obviously the source of the ban intrigues me. Right now I'm quite neutral about forming any strong opinion about who's right or wrong. As I understand it Dorje Shugden was specifically tasked to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching.
1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?
2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?
3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether
4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.
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Okay I know this is an old topic and people in this forum may think been there, discussed that and moved on. I'm new in exploring about Dorje Shugden so obviously the source of the ban intrigues me. Right now I'm quite neutral about forming any strong opinion about who's right or wrong. As I understand it Dorje Shugden was specifically tasked to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching.
1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?
2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?
3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether
4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.
Hi gbds3jewels
This article would be good for you to read and probably answer most of your questions. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-yellow-book/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-yellow-book/)
But I'll try to answer as best that I can.
1 & 2. It is not recommended to mix the different lineages of Buddhism together, even within the vajrayana path. Gelug, sakya, nyingma and kagyu all have different methods and paths leading to the one goal of enlightenment. If one were to mix the lineages, one would most likely not get anywhere akin to mixing driving directions from different people to reach a common destination.
When it comes to high lamas as you call them, the impact of mixing lineages would be even more severe, as the mixed teachings and practices would be passed down to their disciples without the blessings of the lineage, in effect causing the teachings to degenerate. That's why Dorje Shugden took such strong actions as detailed in the cautionary tales contained within the Yellow Book.
3. As stated in the article, the high lamas in question include great attained lamas like kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, and, given his attained nature, death would be just another journey and nothing to fear like us normal practitioners. Of course, Kyabje Pabongka showed us the example to follow when he needed Dorje Shugden's warnings and abandoned the pursuit of Nyingma teachings. Other attained lamas showed us a different example of what NOT to do when they ignored the warnings and omens and continued polluting the teachings.
4. What is commonly said is that after the Yellow Book was published, the 14th Dalai Lama decided to use the tales within the Yellow Book to demonize Dorje Shugden. However, it is interesting to note that:
- Zemey Rinpoche received those teachings from Trijang Dorje Chang as a commentary to Music Delighting.
- Given that Trijang Rinpoche was the junior tutor to the Dalai Lama, isn't it likely that the Dalai Lama would have received those teachings as well, as he holds pretty much all the lineages in the Gelug tradition?
- The material contained in the Yellow Book is actually nothing new. Given that it is commentary to Music Delighting, the other lamas would have already studied the contents within Music Delighting where similar examples of Dorje Shugden's wrathful methods to ensure the purity of the Gelug lineage are detailed. So why the big fuss?
My personal opinion is that the Yellow Book was used as an excuse to start the Shugden ban for political reasons. And other schools probably jumped on the ban as it served their purpose. Perhaps the administrators of this site could do a 2nd article to explain further the role of the Yellow Book in the current controversy?
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1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?
Actually, if a practitioner is new to Dharma, one can still explore until one has found one's root Guru. Once, we have set our minds to a particular Guru, it is only natural to be loyal to one's lineage and Guru for the very fact that we want to achieve the same qualities as our Guru. Hence, we go all the way with the practices and lineages. For modern practitioners with all the distractions that we have, we would not be able to practice a lineage to its entirety and therefore, all the teachings contained within one of the great lineages would be sufficient for us.
2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?
As Thor had mentioned in the Yellow book article. It was said that the lamas mentioned in the Yellow book were big and influential lamas. Hence, when they mix practices, they are also teaching that to their students through their example. Eventually, some precious Gelug lineages would even become extinct because Lamas and people would not have time and energy to practice all the lineages in this day and age of distraction. From the side of the practitioner, mixing of lineages can lead to confusion rather than clarity because the path set in each lineage may have different methods and ordinary practitioners may not know how to prioritize.
3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether
In Buddhism, we may not fully understand the extensive deeds of the attained masters and beings. We may consider it to be wrathful and scary but to them, it is a manifestation of their deeds to benefit beings. We have low threshold for suffering while they have great threshold and can suffer a lot to benefit others. Dorje Shugden is not as punitive and vengeful as he may appear to be. He was acting according to the karmic needs of the period and to pave the way for greater things. He would never cause such harm upon any of his practitioners unless it is for the benefit of all beings. Otherwise, why do so many Dorje Shugden practitioners today have receive nothing but benefit and blessings.
4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.
If you read the article posted on this website, it is said to be the catalyst for the ban. It is not the actual cause. It makes sense because similar stories were written into earlier text by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and there was no uproar on that aspect. Even if we examine the reasons the Dalai Lama gave on why he considers Dorje Shugden to be a harmful spirit. It doesn't hold water. Nothing about the Dorje Shugden ban is truly logical if you really try to reason it out. That is why it is said that perhaps the ban is also a manifestation by the Dalai Lama to propel the practice into the world. Why else does the Dalai Lama risk his reputation, the harmony of his people and risk so much damage just to enforce a ban on a deity? There must tremendous benefit and reason for this.
I hope my explanations help you.
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Thank you Big Uncle and Thor for your replies. I will try to read more and see where my "investigation " takes me. It would indeed be very interesting to get to the root cause of why such a controversial ban comes about which to what I have read to date has caused tremendous heartache to many monks. It absolutely does not make sense for the Dalai Lama to instigate such a ban unless the prove is solid and concrete. There must be more substantial proof as to why His Holiness would call for the ban. Everything about this ban and it's impact of the lives of monks and practitioners are against what the Dalai Lam embodies which is compassion. What is the real hidden secret behind the Dalai Lama calling this ban and why did H.H. pick Dorje Shugden? From I understand from Buddhism! nothing about what these highly attained beings/lamas do are coincidence? So what does the timeline of the Dorje Shugden ban signify? Curious....curious...hmmm....
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You may also be interested to read the original yellow book text, or at least the translated version:
http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Yellow-Book.pdf (http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Yellow-Book.pdf)
As to your question about why the ban really came about, there is a wealth of information in this section of the website. You may like to read it:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/controversy/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/controversy/)