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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on September 30, 2011, 11:24:30 PM
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Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche (born October 15, 1982) is considered the current reincarnation of the Trijang Rinpoche, who was the junior tutor and spiritual guide of the 14th Dalai Lama.
Continue the legacy
Trijang Chocktrul spent much of his early life at Rabten Choeling in Switzerland, and has spent most of his adult life in Northfield, Vermont, where he founded the Trijang Buddhist Institute, to promote the spread of Tibetan Buddhism. Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's "foremost desire is to continue the legacy of his revered predecessor, Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang" (Trijang Rinpoche).
Dorje Shugden
Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, then lived in in Western Europe and asked for audience each time H.H. Dalai Lama visited Europe. Chocktrul Rinpoche requested His Holiness’ unconditional, compassionate acceptance to allow him to continue his relation to Dorje Shugden, who has been closely linked with the last three predecessors of the line of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoches. This has been repeatedly refused. Then when they met in Graz see what HH Dalai Lama said.
When he was a youth, he received death threats from the ‘Secret Society of External and Internal Enemy Eliminators’ for his practice of Dorje Shugden, which forced him to stop his traditional studies in India and go to Western Europe. In their meeting in Graz, Austria, in 2003, the Dalai Lama told him:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
Lama Zopa of the FPMT has expressed great sadness that the Guru of both the Dalai Lama and Lama Yeshe (the founder of the FPMT) felt it necessary to take this step: The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light.
source: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Trijang-Chocktrul-Rinpoche/124472694264292?ref=ts
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The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?
Mana
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In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:
"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.
Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...
He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong.
Means: he thinks that the person whom he calls his own root guru is a very
normal, common person like ourselves who is not able to tell write from
wrong. Leads us to the question why should we now rely on the Dalai Lama?
Why should we believe that he is more right than his guru? Why did the Dalai
Lama tell us first, that the protector is a Buddha (in eloquent prayers) and
now he tells us the opposite? Why should we believe the Dalai Lama?
However, current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche did not accept this request and
his decisions are also not based on the reflections about whether it would
bring him lots or only few disciples. He told to the Dalai Lama that he can
not accept and that he will stay with the practice of his predecessors.
Later, when we were back at our center in Munich, I asked Trijang Rinpoche
twice whether the Dalai Lama has really said this about his own Master. The
answer was very clear: Yes, the Dalai Lama said this.
What brings myself to some thoughts about Lam Rim. Those of you who are
doing Lam Rim meditation will know what Je Tsongkhapa said about the root of
the path and the source of all good qualities...
This change in the views of the Dalai Lama - strange indeed... "
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This is old news; here's an article about it:
http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/the-dalai-lama-tempts-and-threatens-his-guru/
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In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:
"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.
Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...
He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong.
Means: he thinks that the person whom he calls his own root guru is a very
normal, common person like ourselves who is not able to tell write from
wrong. Leads us to the question why should we now rely on the Dalai Lama?
Why should we believe that he is more right than his guru? Why did the Dalai
Lama tell us first, that the protector is a Buddha (in eloquent prayers) and
now he tells us the opposite? Why should we believe the Dalai Lama?
However, current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche did not accept this request and
his decisions are also not based on the reflections about whether it would
bring him lots or only few disciples. He told to the Dalai Lama that he can
not accept and that he will stay with the practice of his predecessors.
Later, when we were back at our center in Munich, I asked Trijang Rinpoche
twice whether the Dalai Lama has really said this about his own Master. The
answer was very clear: Yes, the Dalai Lama said this.
What brings myself to some thoughts about Lam Rim. Those of you who are
doing Lam Rim meditation will know what Je Tsongkhapa said about the root of
the path and the source of all good qualities...
This change in the views of the Dalai Lama - strange indeed... "
No wonder why HH Dalai lama is destroying the lineage. The more who speak out against him the better.
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Definitely i think that the Dalai Lama is not really giving HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche a choice. No wonder Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche decided to become a layperson and not be involved in the politics.
Signing the petition as mentioned in http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1388.0 thread is a good way to make our voice heard.
I wonder if HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will become more high profile after the passing of HH Dalai Lama.
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It is courageous of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to give up so much and to disrobe so as to be able to continue to practice Dorje Shugden.
He is also tirelessly spreading Je Tsongkapa's lineage teachings in the West, as well as nurturing young incarnate Tulkus like Domo Geshe Rinpoche. There is no doubt that, when the Dalai Lama passes on, he will play a pivotal role in ensuring that the Gelug lineage teachings and the practice of Dorje Shugden will spread far and wide.
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the Dalai Lama told him:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
It is surprising to hear...
Sounds like the witches inquisitions where by, if you went to trial for being a witch they would tie you up weigh you down with stones then toss you in a river.
If when they pulled you out your were still alive it was confirmed you are a witch then they would burn you at the stake.
But if they pulled you out and you were dead, you would be considered not a witch and welcome into the kingdom of god. But at least you weren't labelled a witch.
Similar
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This is shocking. How can a student talk so rudely to his own guru ? HHDL left no choice for HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche but indirectly force him to not taking full odination. But does Trijang Rinpoche really need odination ? No he doesn't, although it look quite unbelievable for HHDL to said such thing to his own guru, but i do believe that's a deeper meaning behind it.
Check this out:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
I do not believe a total enlighten being such as Trijang Rinpoche needs an unenlightened protector to take care of him. Why does a Buddha need help from an unenlightened deity ? This doesn't make sence, I'm sure HHDL know what he's talking about, and he must means something deeper. What is it, I do not know, but as we can see, Trijang Rinpoche has been doing a lot of retreats and he's started to nurturing the new generation of very powerful tulkus in such a young age, i believe if Trijang RInpoche would like to teach openly, no one will be able to stop his shine, and he'll never have problem to be sucessful in his dharma career.
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the Dalai Lama told him:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
This ultimatum makes me tear because I can only imagine the immense pressure this young Tulku, Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche have to undergo for the lineage of Dorje Shugden. I am in awe and I am amazed at the resoluteness of this young Tulku that he chose the middle way by returning his vows and living in Vermont away from the crazy Dorje Shugden practitioners wishing him to be their head so that he can champion their cause against the Dalai Lama (whom he revere and respect immensely). And also away from the monastery, where his presence would require him to renounce Dorje Shugden, his samaya, lineage and the Protector of many lifetimes.
Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.
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This is my guess on this. If HHDL left Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche no choice then why would them have a precious 20 mins private time? If times and times HHDl had refused audience with the young tulku then why again this time is approved? Was it really so simple just to "remind" the young tulku to make a choice? Personally, whatever HHDL, Trijang Rinpoche and all the other highly attained gurus acts and talks don't bother me at all because they are monks, moreover highly attained beings. So I don't think they are actually interested in political matters except working for a bigger purpose.
I feel that Trijang Rinpoche and HHDL are manifesting pure guru devotion, a great teaching to the students to see even obstacles at such wouldn't disturb such an attained being. After all, pure guru devotion is the key to enlightenment. So it is just not so simple to choose the practice but to stick to your guru, your vows and your devotion. By having accomplish that, I don't think you need to justify yourself any further. Switching protector to me is equivalent to switching your guru. If you can abandon the protector is given by your own guru, doesn't it mean that you are actually abandoning your own guru?
HHDL is very kind to manifest flaws at this very time for a bigger purpose I feel. But Trijang Rinpoche "unmovable" action and stable mind is a teaching all together for young and future practitioners because we are the one with unstable mind hence very little guru devotion. So when the passes of HHDL, Trijang Rinpoche will then be recognized as a devoted master, highly attained and with such admirable guru devotion quality which will inspire many more students in time to come. We just have to wait for the time.
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Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.
Dear Big Uncle,
Thanks for presenting another way of looking at Trijang Rinpoche's situation. I never thought of it that way but it does make sense. It is possible that Trijang Rinpoche is put in that position by Dalai Lama to absorb the negative karma of many people who will potentially be benefited by DS in the future. The actions of high enlightened Lama can be beyond our comprehension. As such it is best we do not criticise and condemn as we are not at that level where we can make informed judgment and also keeping in mind the severe negative karma consequences should we wrong a high being.
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In June 2000, Oliver Osswald reported the following:
"Anyway: a couple of weeks ago I accompanied the current Trijang Choktrul
Rinpoche to visit the Dalai Lama, who stayed at Munich at that time. Trijang
Rinpoche is going to be 18 years old and it was the first time that he went
all alone to talk to the Dalai Lama - they spoke about 20 minutes to each
other while the Dalai Lama sent everybody else out.
Rigth after that Trijang Rinpoche said to me that the Dalai Lama told him
that he should give up this practice and that he should consider that there
are only few people left who practice it. So if he would give up, he would
have lot's of disciples in the future and if not he would only have few...
He also stated, that his own root master Trijang Dorje Chang was completely
wrong in doing this practice and likewise Trijang Dorje Changs own root guru
Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama called both by their names and said
that they were completely wrong."
I refer to Zach's quote from Heartspoon.
What I learned is that before you enter a guru-disciple relationship, you have to check that your guru posseses all qualities to guide you to enlightenment. Therefore, you have to check and know that the guru that you are calling your guru, is THE one, before acknowledging it. Once acknowledged, it should be the foundation in one's practise.
As quoted here, HHDL is saying that his guru is wrong..does that mean that HHDL is saying that he was wrong in the first place when identifying his guru? Then what makes his judgement on Dorje Shugden now correct? Identifying one's guru is the biggest step in one's spiritual journey, so if HHDL had got that "wrong", then the basis of his practise would also be questionable wouldn't it. If HHDL is saying that Trijang Dorje Chang and Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong, then the entire lineage would have been faulty in their practise...but why then have they re-incarnated back if their practise was wrong? Why would enlightened beings come back to teach a practise that is "wrong".
As an emanation of Avalokiteshavra, HHDL embodies compassion, one of the 2 lineages that is the foundation to the Lamrim (the other being wisdom). DS arose to specifically protect Nagarjuna's middle view..Atisha combined Manjushri's path of Wisdom, via Nagajurna, and Maitreya's path of compassion, via Asanga, to compose the Lamrim... why would "an evil spirit" like Dorje Shugden, be selected to protect such important teachings of Nagarjuna?
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When we doubt our root lama, we are in a way doubting all the lamas who recognised him. In fact we would be doubting out teachrs teacher. If we can doubt our teacher's teacher then we can doubt the entire lineage. If we doubt the entire lineage whats left of the lineage? Very dangerous reasonings.
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Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.
Dear Big Uncle,
Thanks for presenting another way of looking at Trijang Rinpoche's situation. I never thought of it that way but it does make sense. It is possible that Trijang Rinpoche is put in that position by Dalai Lama to absorb the negative karma of many people who will potentially be benefited by DS in the future. The actions of high enlightened Lama can be beyond our comprehension. As such it is best we do not criticise and condemn as we are not at that level where we can make informed judgment and also keeping in mind the severe negative karma consequences should we wrong a high being.
Thanks for the support WoselTenzin,
I think we don't have to go that mystical. The choices laid out for Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is obvious. If he is the right incarnation, he would never renounce Dorje Shugden for students and material support from the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama must know this and he must be secretly pleased with his choice because a real Lama would never pick materialism of students and sponsorship over the Dharma.
His choice is also a teaching and an example for all of us true Dorje Shugden practitioners. We should never pick materialism, fame or being right over Dorje Shugden practice. If we are true Dorje Shugden practitioners, we must be courageous and emulate Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. This must be part of the Dalai Lama's reasons for subjecting Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to this trial.
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The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?
Mana
HHDL leaves no choice to Trijang Rinpoche. It sounds like more of a threat than a choice. However, what Trijang Rinpoche did is a clear example of guru devotion where he does not abandon the practices given to him by his root guru. And the fact HHDL is threatening Trijang Rinpoche is a break in his guru samaya.
Maybe it is true that HHDL is testing the young Trijang Rinpoche on whether he could be easily swayed and be stable in his practices given by lineage gurus.
There will come a time where Trijang Rinpoche will shine again and not stuck in some corner. As of now, Trijang Rinpoche is making decisions on his own with regards to the happenings in Trijang Ladrang in Gaden. And all DS practitioners does respect him as there are pictures of the young Trijang Rinpoche on his throne in Shar Gaden. His following is becoming bigger and bigger.
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I am pretty positive that Trijang Rinpoche is showing us all an example that nothing can stop him from practicing his commitments, not even such threats from HHDL. But later, did HHDL not allow Trijang from practicing Shugden? what does this tell us? it shows that we need to be strong and not give up for "easier" circumstances in exchange for our own Dharma practice. All this is a teaching. If HHDL did not ban we would not be able to observe this quality of Trijang Rinpoche.
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HHDL been hated by many monks,nuns and ds practitioner, another 1,000 peoples hate him or like him i think is no differences. DL purposely let people talk about this topic, even his root guru current reincartion no matter difficult situation arise never give up DS practise.
From this story, i have learn...
1) High lama like trijang rinpoche never give up DS, Why should i !
2) never give up practises given by master guru.
3) guru devotion
High lama every action always sending us messages to meditate.
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Apart from giving us an example how important it is to keep our faith and promise to our guru. I think HHDL and Trijang Rinpoche have a bigger plan. If Trijang Rinpoche 'appears' to be in conflict with HHDL and not being a monk gives him the convenience to travel as a layman. Combining these 2 factors, won't it be easier for Trijang Rinpoche to spread Tsongkhapa Doctrine in China again? Looking at the age of HHDL and the situation between him and Chinese Government, I doubt HHDL will be able to go back to Tibet or China to give teachings.
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Abandoning one's practices from one's root guru is like asking the person to abandon one's parents totally.
HHDL said to Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche that it is entirely up to his judgement to abandon or continue his protector practice. The decision made by the current Trijang Rinpoche demonstrated the esscence of vajrayana, that the Guru is most supreme as he is the one to bring us to enlightenment. And it also does not make sense at all that we can take on all teachings, initiations from our guru except the DS practice. Holy enlightened minds use the ban to teach us lessons and we as students should be grateful that they set a clear example for us to follow.
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, junior tutor of HHDL, has mentioned before that in future there would appear conflict between HHDL and DS, he asked his students and followers not to loose faith in both but be patience for the conflict to be over.
I woud definitely follow such advice without loosing faith in both holy beings. Afterall, who am I to judge or criticise with my deluded mind?
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The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?
Manaories we hear
HHDL leaves no choice to Trijang Rinpoche. It sounds like more of a threat than a choice. However, what Trijang Rinpoche did is a clear example of guru devotion where he does not abandon the practices given to him by his root guru.
The perfect illusory play by Enlightened minds? Like Naropa & Tilopa, Like Marpa and Milarepa and many more such are great mahasiddha stories told and heard. I find this scenario likened to it. How can HHDL "Chenrezig" threatened his own holy guru HH Trijang Dorje Chang "Heruka"? But it sure sounds like a threat in our ordinary minds.
the Dalai Lama told him:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
From the above statement made above... it appear that HHDL is trying to sway Trijang Rinpoche using all 8 wordly concerns and obviously Trijang Rinpoche did not accept. Showing us a great example of Guru devotion, his enlightened mind, his purity. What I find interesting is this Guru Disciple relationship, even after all that has been done against Trijang Rinpoche, He remains calm and does not react negatively towards HHDL and not said anything negative towards HHDL. If it is a test, then clearly Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has passed with flying colours.
It is obvious that Trijang Rinpoche does not need the above mentioned by HHDL to make him famous/spread the Dharma, in fact because of it, it has propelled him to become even more well known (effortlessly)as many instantly around the world due to the ban is more aware of HH Trijang Rinpoche.
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Abandoning one's practices from one's root guru is like asking the person to abandon one's parents totally.
HHDL said to Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche that it is entirely up to his judgement to abandon or continue his protector practice. The decision made by the current Trijang Rinpoche demonstrated the esscence of vajrayana, that the Guru is most supreme as he is the one to bring us to enlightenment. And it also does not make sense at all that we can take on all teachings, initiations from our guru except the DS practice. Holy enlightened minds use the ban to teach us lessons and we as students should be grateful that they set a clear example for us to follow.
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, junior tutor of HHDL, has mentioned before that in future there would appear conflict between HHDL and DS, he asked his students and followers not to loose faith in both but be patience for the conflict to be over.
I woud definitely follow such advice without loosing faith in both holy beings. Afterall, who am I to judge or criticise with my deluded mind?
"Like" but in actuality, worse because your parents are your parents for this life only... but your guru keeps you under his watchful care until enlightenment.
What Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche says makes perfect sense. All lamas are manifestations of the enlightened mind, so in essence they are all the same. Therefore the act of losing faith in one but not other, is in reality rejecting BOTH teachers because Buddha taught there are no distinctions between the enlightened mind... how can you reject one enligthened mind and not the other?
I wouldnt lose faith because when I reject both teachers, where does it stop? If I can reject my guru and the Dalai Lama, then I might as well reject all the blessings of the Guru Tree, all the way back to Guru Shakyamuni. Its a slippery slope downhill.
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Such a high and respectable Lama in all His lives and also a practitioner of Dorje Shugden, how can it be wrong? How can someone who worships a 'demon' even have the chance to meet HHDL and receive advice from Him? Or even be one of HHDL's tutor? Trijang Rinpoche was recognized and enthroned therefore I am very sure that people won't need to read His 'certificate' nor think whether He is qualified or not like what HHDL asked him to do. Mind you, Trijang Rinpoche is doing much better and have many sponsors abroad. He can reach out to the western world and benefit much more rather than staying in India and get murder threats when He was there. If He is my Guru, I will not doubt for a second. I will follow what He says and DO IT!!
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i revisited this thread as it got me thinking deeper. In other words, what His Holiness said to HH Trijang Rinpoche is not a choice, in fact His Holiness predicts that if he abandon his Dorje Shugden practice, Nechung will protect him and make his work grow; if he doesn't he'll have a few students and his work won't grow. So if His Holiness can summon Nechung to protect and make things grow for HH Trijang Rinpoche then why not subdue Dorje Shugden? Instead just talking about it for decades, he could easily subdue a demon (if he is) after all he would like protect his root guru wouldn't he?
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Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.
It's admirable that you want to let the Dalai Lama off the hook again, but let's think about this. Trijang Rinpoche is already an enlightened being, he doesn't need torturing to purify his negative karma. Any obstacles that Dorje Shugden practitioners may have are for us to purify.
The only person who is creating obstacles for Dorje Shugden practitioners is the Dalai Lama, and he definitely needs to do some purification for creating a schism in the Sangha.
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Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.
I appreciate Big Uncle'd take on this. On the face of it, HHDL bullied the young Tulku into making impossible choices. but I think there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
Assuming Big Uncle is right, HHDL's move has first and foremost established the young Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as a practitioner of pure guru devotion, a noble and resolute character, and an enlightened mind that is not seduced by the promise of achievements and recognitions. This is important to seal the credibility of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and prepare him for great things to come. HHDL made a young Trijang Rinpoche more famous than Nechung could have.
Second, by "driving" the young Trijang Rinpoche away from the monastery, HHDL actually provided Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche with the freedom to keep practicing Dorje Shugden, build a following and garner international sponsors in preparation of Trijang Rinpoche perhaps taking over when HHDL passes on. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche would certainly face a much harder time with his preparations if he had to contend with political pressure by practicing Dorje Shugden openly as a monk.
In time when either the ban is lifted or when HHDL is no more, there will be little to stop Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche from sitting for his Geshe exams and receiving full ordination. Trijang Rinpoche would then have formally come back to continue his work to spread Dorje Shugden.
Every controversial thing HHDL did with respect to Dorje Shugden and the ban, has made the practice stronger and grow faster.
The things
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In time when either the ban is lifted or when HHDL is no more, there will be little to stop Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche from sitting for his Geshe exams and receiving full ordination. Trijang Rinpoche would then have formally come back to continue his work to spread Dorje Shugden.
Every controversial thing HHDL did with respect to Dorje Shugden and the ban, has made the practice stronger and grow faster.
The things
I do believe all these 'dramas' by HHDL are for the spreading of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.
Evidently from current situation that with the ban, Dorje Shugden's pratice had attracted international attentions to Buddhists and even non-Buddhists as well. Without the ban, not even all Tibetans know this powerful deity. So the ban actually promote DS to the world stage.
Secondly, since Chinese government has a fall out with HHDL and was originally controlling monasteries and even evading the practice of monks and claimed to 'recognise' incarnations of high lamas. With this ban, HHDL is creating a 'separate group' within Gelug which is out of HHDL's camp, they're viewed as 'anti-Dalai Lama', thus, this put them into the same camp with the Chinese authorities. In this way, at least there is a group of Gelug practitioners can continue to practice dharma peacefully in Tibet and China.
Though initially this ban gave so much sufferings and hardships to the lamas and practitioners of DS, ultimately, the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings is spreading widely among Tibetans and other Buddhists around the world. So, once the ban is lifted or when eventually HHDL passes on, there will be a great force of practitioners to continue the holy lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.
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I do believe all these 'dramas' by HHDL are for the spreading of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.
Evidently from current situation that with the ban, Dorje Shugden's pratice had attracted international attentions to Buddhists and even non-Buddhists as well. Without the ban, not even all Tibetans know this powerful deity. So the ban actually promote DS to the world stage.
Secondly, since Chinese government has a fall out with HHDL and was originally controlling monasteries and even evading the practice of monks and claimed to 'recognise' incarnations of high lamas. With this ban, HHDL is creating a 'separate group' within Gelug which is out of HHDL's camp, they're viewed as 'anti-Dalai Lama', thus, this put them into the same camp with the Chinese authorities. In this way, at least there is a group of Gelug practitioners can continue to practice dharma peacefully in Tibet and China.
Though initially this ban gave so much sufferings and hardships to the lamas and practitioners of DS, ultimately, the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings is spreading widely among Tibetans and other Buddhists around the world. So, once the ban is lifted or when eventually HHDL passes on, there will be a great force of practitioners to continue the holy lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.
if HHDL meant what he said, then it would mean that he has no Guru devotion at all, and he would lose all his attainments and status. There has been so many stories of mahasiddhas who as so much said "he is not my Guru", or even had the thought "not even my Guru can do this" immediately lose all of their attainments and become nothing but an ordinary person. We do not see that happening with HHDL.
In some way or another, even with these kind of things happening, HHDL can still teach and never reverts back to becoming an ordinary person and can still give initiations and teachings. So, he is definitely still devoted to his Guru if not, the Dharma protectors will not allow him to give transmissions of teachings and create obstacles or show signs that he has lost his attainments. This, again, obviously has not happened.
Sometimes, seemingly mythical stories from the olden times do happen and they can be used to analyze situations like these and provide a very clear answer to situations like these. And in this case, HHDL "survived" the test even tho he made such remarks against his root Guru. There is no way anyone of his stature would make remarks like that and get away with it. There will be signs that he lost his attainments if he really meant it.
The latest news after this was that HHDL has allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice: Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q#) by means of divination (and of course, the results would be YES) but this is also one of the cracks on the ban that are surfacing and more of them has surfaced since then.
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“…and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever... “
Trijang Rinpoche’s past incarnations include pandit ??ntarak?ita, Padmasambhava, Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na, Lang-ri Thangpa Dorje Senge, Buddha Je Tsongkhapa, Mönlam Pelwa (i.e. Eighth Ganden Tripa), Mikyö Dorje (eighth Karmapa), Zurchen Chöying Rangdröl (one of the Fifth Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso’s principal Masters), Trichen Jangchub Chöpel (sixty-ninth Ganden Tripa), Trichen Lobsang Tsultrim (eighty-fifth Ganden Tripa), and immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo (assistant and tutor of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama for forty years).
Trijang Rinpoche’s countless accomplishments and attainments of his past incarnations are incomparable. Trijang Rinpoche was already so successful and famous that he does not need further recognition or fame! Every Vajrayana practitioner knows who Trijang Rinpoche is! Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha. It is absurd to say Nechung, a worldly spirit can protect a Buddha and make Trijang Rinpoche more successful!
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much..."
Tibetan people especially those who were (and still are) suppressed by the ban on Dorje Shugden will appreciate it very much if there was no ban on Dorje Shugden in the first place. Dorje Shugden practice was transmitted from Trijang Rinpoche to all the Tibetan people. How can the Tibetan people who had received and benefitted from Dorje Shugden practice ask Trijang Rinpoche to give up his practice? No student of Trijang Rinpoche (including HH 14th Dalai Lama) has the authority to stop him from practising Dorje Shugden. Who do these students think they are? It is like telling a Buddha to stop engaging in bodhichitta!
"...If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible..."
Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha. Do we need to train a fully enlightened Buddha? Even if Trijang Rinpoche is not ordained, he can still train under so many high lamas of today.
“…So I leave it to your judgement."
HH 14th Dalai Lama’s question is very intimidating, unnecessary and irrelevant! From a Guru-disciple relationship’s point of view, it is very disrespectful of a disciple to even raise this question to a guru.
Trijang Rinpoche need not make any decision on whether to abandon Dorje Shugden practice or to pursue his monastic career. The World will always benefit from His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche’s presence even if His Holiness is a lay teacher.
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
From the outset, the whole question seems inappropriate. Like what many others had said in this thread, I feel that there are deeper meanings beneath this question. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and Trijang Rinpoche had been working hand-in-hand for the benefit of Dharma in many past lives.
When HH Dalai Lama manisfested as king Trisong Detsen, Trijang Rinpoche was pandit ??ntarak?ita. When Trijang Rinpoche manifested as Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na, HHH Dalai Lama was Dromtönpa Gyalwé Jungne. When Trijang Rinpoche was Buddha Je Tsongkhapa, HH Dalai Lama was Avalokiteshvara. When Trijang Rinpoche was Mikyö Dorje (eighth Karmapa), HH Dalai Lama was Gendun Gyatso. When Trijang Rinpoche became Zurchen Chöying Rangdröl, HH Dalai Lama was the Fifth Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso. When Trijang Rinpoche was Trichen Jangchub Chöpel (sixty-ninth Ganden Tripa), HH Dalai Lama was Lungtog Gyatso. Finally Trijang Rinpoche was the immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo who was the assistant and tutor of the 14th Dalai Lama for forty years.
From these relationships that lasted many past lives, both Trijang Rinpoche and HH Dalai Lama are very closely connected. It is impossible that HH Dalai Lama would want to harm or make Trijang Rinpoche’s current spiritual training difficult!
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In the video clip posted by Ensapa, HH said to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche:
"............If Rinpoche has to continue the practice, I will make this an exception. However if others want to consider Shugden very important then I request them not to take initiations and spiritual vows from me. Since this has to do with the purity of the spiritual bond between teacher and disciple, I request Shugden followers not to receive initiations and vows from me. Instead they should follow their own ways and practice without having anything to do with me."
Does that also mean that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's personal attendants may engage in the practice too?
Does that mean HH's purity of the spiritual bond with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was/is not pure?
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Do you really think that Trijang Rinpoche or Pabongkha Rinpoche needs training or something like that in order to grow? they can grow if they really want to, or if they want to keep a low profile it is really up to them. One thing for sure, they can definitely build a huge Dharma center than can benefit infinite amounts of people if they want to, and if that is their wish, but for now they would like to keep down.
From their past deeds and their past lives, it is pretty impossible for them to not benefit people unless they choose to stay low themselves. I am sure many, many, many people in the US know of Trijang Rinpoche's great achievements in his past lives and also that he is the root Guru of many of his Gurus. It is pretty much impossible for him to stay as low profile as he is now unless he willed it that way.
I have heard that there are assassins that is going after Trijang Rinpoche's life. I don't think that they will be successful because Dorje Shugden does protect him, and also that he does not have the karma to die that way. However it will cause a lot of negative karma on the side of the assassins. Thus from that aspect, Trijang Rinpoche is kind enough to avoid them so that they do not create harm for themselves.
Lastly, but not least, perhaps HHDL does not want him to study in the monasteries so that he is safe from negative influences or perhaps, from jealous people who would want to ruin him but he cannot say this too directly. Based on Dalai Lama's respect for Trijang Rinpoche, the words were meant to be heard for certain people, and not to Trijang Rinpoche...
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For me, it appears that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H. Dalai Lama the 14th, and Lama Zopa Rinpoche are staging a play for the whole world to see. All of them are Buddhas and enlightened beings - there are plenty of evidence of their work in this life and previous lives. As stated in many scriptures, it is just impossible to degenerate from enlightened state.
To have one Lama contradicts each other actually serve to attract our attention to the deity in question. In this case Gyalchen Dorje Shugden. Just like the Lama mentioned above, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden is also an enlightened protector. The work and inclinations of his previous incarnations from Birwapa up to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen provided plenty of evidence.
If we hold on to the premise that it is not possible to degenerate from an enlightened state, it will all be clear. That these Lamas only work for one thing and one thing only - to promote and attract people to Dorje Shugden. This whole controversy about whether or not we should practice DS provides DS with such visibility. Now he stands out from other deities.
When I contemplating on this, it just increases my faith. These high Lamas do not hesitate to make a fool of themselves, contradicting themselves, acting sad, oppressive, etc. All for the sake of benefiting sentient beings.
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HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche not only manifests laity but also chose to live away from the silly Tibetan politics. Why do you think most Dorje Shugden lamas chose to live in Switzerland and America? With HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche now living in Vermont, USA, HH has freedom of speech AND practice!
To add on to what you mention: 'I wonder if HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will become more high profile after the passing of HH Dalai Lama'. I think most Dorje Shugden lamas such as Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche and HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche (who were such illustrious Lamas in the previous lives) will become high profile. Even now with so much suppression, the are so high profile. They are now in the late twenties and in afew years time when HHDL passes in, they will be in the 'right' age to spread their good works.
Definitely i think that the Dalai Lama is not really giving HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche a choice. No wonder Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche decided to become a layperson and not be involved in the politics.
Signing the petition as mentioned in [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1388.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1388.0[/url]) thread is a good way to make our voice heard.
I wonder if HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will become more high profile after the passing of HH Dalai Lama.
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When he was a youth, he received death threats from the ‘Secret Society of External and Internal Enemy Eliminators’ for his practice of Dorje Shugden, which forced him to stop his traditional studies in India and go to Western Europe. In their meeting in Graz, Austria, in 2003, the Dalai Lama told him:
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."
Lama Zopa of the FPMT has expressed great sadness that the Guru of both the Dalai Lama and Lama Yeshe (the founder of the FPMT) felt it necessary to take this step: The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light.
source: [url]http://www.facebook.com/pages/Trijang-Chocktrul-Rinpoche/124472694264292?ref=ts[/url] ([url]http://www.facebook.com/pages/Trijang-Chocktrul-Rinpoche/124472694264292?ref=ts[/url])
I believe the time will come for Trijang Rinpoche to come out and teach. The time will be determine by Trijang Rinpoche himself. Afterall, all high incarnate lama will act when the time is appropriate and they are back to benefit all sentient beings. We just need to TRUST. The methods used in this time by high lamas are different from previously cause our attachment are greater. So we should not judge any high incarnate lama's action. They have their reasons for acting in a certain manner, the result will show who they are.
For example, eventhough Trijang Rinpoche is being "hidden" but Rinpoche is doing a lot of work related to the spread of dharma. Rinpoche is responsible for Domo Geshe incarnation. Rinpoche still gives a lot of instructions to his students in Chatreng, Shar Gaden and also all around the world from his "hidden" operation center. Trijang Rinpoche is beginning to travel again and his latest was to Mongolia last year. I believe we will hear more about Rinpoche soon. And when Rinpoche starts to speak publicly, it will bring the lineage to another level.
Just wait CTA.....
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I totally agree with shugdenpromoter that we should not judge the actions of high incarnate lamas, in this case HHDL, Trijang Rinpoche and Lama Zopa. As they are all enlightened beings, whatever they do are for the benefit of all sentient beings. We can only see what appears to us with our untrained eyes and minds. Even when going through this dileama, Trijang Rinpoche is teaching us all a very precious lesson on showing guru devotion. Even at the cost of his life being threatened and not be able to sit for his geshe exams, he is steadfastly continuing with his DS practice which was given by his guru. In my opinion, HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is really a true high incarnate lama, whether he sat for his geshe exam or not.
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It's now 2012 and it seems that Trijang Rinpoche has already started his Dharma career. he is starting to teach at europe and several other countries. This is all very good news. And I am sure he will continue to manifest more and more Dharma activities. This is ABSOLUTE PROOF that CTA or the Dalai Lama cannot stop real tulkus from benefitting others. I pray that Trijang Rinpoche's Dharma works may grow even more!
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Since this article was posted in 2011, Trijang Rinpoche having held onto His faith in Dorje Shugden has began to teach and give initiations to many.
I admire how Trijang Rinpoche has persevere and will soon do more and more to lift the ban.