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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Damian.D on June 05, 2011, 07:15:19 PM
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Your not the one actually doing the prayers.
You don't pay for the offerings.
Its not your commitment.
Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
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Yes, Damian D, I would say yes to your questions.
Whatever works involved in the process, be it set up, cleaning, sourcing, or any preparation towards a puja or a teachings given by a lama is meritorous.
I believe the key here is whatever you are doing towards any kinds of dharma activities, make a good motivation even for a simple job like cleaning the places or buying the offerings. Merits collection to propell our understanding of he dharma does not have to be only concerning with big sponsorships.
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If it were me, I'd take it a level higher.
Since I am making the effort to make the offerings anyways, why not take it all the way and also make the prayers and offer to buy some offerings or contribute to the costs of it too.
Why stop at that just preparing or making the offerings?
Everything good will bring some measure of merits to us, or for us.
But if we are serious about our spiritual path, why stop half way or quarter of the way - why not go a little further each time?
I find that a lot of people do not make full use of the opportunities around them. They stop at what is enough or comfortable, as if it is only to meet the minimum requirement. Why do we do that if we believe that the spiritual path is of utmost importance? Why do we delay and want to take our time?
It is perhaps the most puzzling paradox that afflicts us all.
We know that the end point of suffering, is our enlightenment.
Yet we relish in taking our time and doing what is just bare minimum but not rushing forward to get there as fast as possible.
I guess this is why some people progress very quickly despite starting late. While others could stay stagnant or not progress well, even though they start much earlier.
I think the question people should ask themselves is - do they really want to be in the spiritual path and if yes, why?
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Yes I understand whats being said and advised, yet I can't help it... What I hear is make offerings, make good motivation, yet what I see is taking an easy way out, getting someone else to do, and considering themselves "holy" "practicing buddhist" because their altar has offerings on it.
In this regards, its not unlike some mafia guy that makes a donation in the church to make up for all the negative karma created in their day to day existence. In some way its supposed to make up for everything that they do thats negative and they don't have to change at all.
I thought making offerings was supposed to transform our minds?
I will most definitely won't be collecting any merits with this wrong view i feel. But interested in knowing what people have to say.
I will fight my mind to set good motivation. After all it's to a Buddha, and its supposed to be on behalf of people who really need it.
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Making offering is the direct antidote to miserliness which arises from attachment ; be it attachment to material wealth , to our time or our own comfort zone.
To those who may be not so well off or their attachment to wealth is stronger, offering of time and effort will be an easier start of their spiritual practice. I've seen volunteers of this sort slowly succeeded and become more generous with offering of material things.
Those with greater material resources and/or stronger attachment to their leisure may find monetary or material offerings a much easier practice.
There is no question as to which is a "better" practice. It's more beneficial that we have taken the first step . With perseverance we shall definitely experience results and our motivation will become less self centered. All 84,000 practices are good and relevant to us. As fellow practitioners, our practice is to encourage and be supportive of each other.
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Apart from what has already been clearly said in this thread... we must not forget the fact that in rejoicing for the person/persons making these offerings also reaps merits. There are many ways of getting merits if out motivation is pure and we genuinely offer "ourselves". Our very actions, thoughts, words are offerings to the 3 jewels and these in my mind are the highest offerings... i.e. our transformation.
Physical offerings are wonderful but the offering of one's change for the benefit of others outweighs the truck loads of priceless gems one is able to offer! After all, arent Buddha's non attached and these offerings are merely a way of making us "let go" of our attachments to worldly means?
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Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
Yes. You will gain merits upon completion of the act of helping others to prepare the offerings. if you did it with the bodhichitta motivation, then you will gain vast amount of merits. There are many levels to the practice of giving. You would need to adopt the one applicable to you current level.
yet what I see is taking an easy way out, getting someone else to do, and considering themselves "holy" "practicing buddhist" because their altar has offerings on it.
There is no stopping someone who can afford to get another person to make offerings on their behalf. People who employ maids have the tendency to depend on their maids
We in fact should rejoice in their good fortunes to be able to afford this service. Rejoicing is another simple way to accumulate merits!
I thought making offerings was supposed to transform our minds?
Yes it will transform our minds if we do it with the proper motivation and without harming others.
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Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
Yes. You will gain merits upon completion of the act of helping others to prepare the offerings. if you did it with the bodhichitta motivation, then you will gain vast amount of merits. There are many levels to the practice of giving. You would need to adopt the one applicable to you current level.
yet what I see is taking an easy way out, getting someone else to do, and considering themselves "holy" "practicing buddhist" because their altar has offerings on it.
There is no stopping someone who can afford to get another person to make offerings on their behalf. People who employ maids have the tendency to depend on their maids
We in fact should rejoice in their good fortunes to be able to afford this service. Rejoicing is another simple way to accumulate merits!
I thought making offerings was supposed to transform our minds?
Yes it will transform our minds if we do it with the proper motivation and without harming others.
Yes I guess from our side we should not judge. Because at the end of the day, the person who can afford the maid is also giving the maid a chance to collect some merits. Whatever their motivation is, that is between them and the Buddhas and their karma. Only that will tell...
Yes I agree that motivation is really the key. If our motivation is not good and we are simply using the maid out of our pure laziness or pride, then in time you will see that person degenerating. But if it is because you are busy with work, you've got tons to do and simply just don't have the time, not that you are relaxing, holidaying off some beach in Acapulco, then sure... why not?
I have a question: I've heard some people say that you can't really dedicate merits to someone... is this true? If someone dedicates merits to another, does the other person really gets it? How much of it do they get?
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Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
Yes. You will gain merits upon completion of the act of helping others to prepare the offerings. if you did it with the bodhichitta motivation, then you will gain vast amount of merits. There are many levels to the practice of giving. You would need to adopt the one applicable to you current level.
yet what I see is taking an easy way out, getting someone else to do, and considering themselves "holy" "practicing buddhist" because their altar has offerings on it.
There is no stopping someone who can afford to get another person to make offerings on their behalf. People who employ maids have the tendency to depend on their maids
We in fact should rejoice in their good fortunes to be able to afford this service. Rejoicing is another simple way to accumulate merits!
I thought making offerings was supposed to transform our minds?
Yes it will transform our minds if we do it with the proper motivation and without harming others.
Yes I guess from our side we should not judge. Because at the end of the day, the person who can afford the maid is also giving the maid a chance to collect some merits. Whatever their motivation is, that is between them and the Buddhas and their karma. Only that will tell...
Yes I agree that motivation is really the key. If our motivation is not good and we are simply using the maid out of our pure laziness or pride, then in time you will see that person degenerating. But if it is because you are busy with work, you've got tons to do and simply just don't have the time, not that you are relaxing, holidaying off some beach in Acapulco, then sure... why not?
I have a question: I've heard some people say that you can't really dedicate merits to someone... is this true? If someone dedicates merits to another, does the other person really gets it? How much of it do they get?
I agree with the above. I too have a housekeeper which comes in to clean and she does the offerings on my altar. She does it very well and I am happy for the merits that she receives from it. She is not of my faith but she understands the benefits of making offerings and she loves doing it. I don't see anything wrong with that as it gives her an opportunity to gain merits and she helps me as I am busy at work. Often I am off early in the mornings and back in the wee hours of the night.
With regards to dedicating merits.... surely one can. I do... I often dedicate merits at the end of my day to my loved ones and also to the ones that have tested my resolve and patience throughout the day. Whether or not the person actually receives the merits, it is good to realise we need to give in order to receive. Well, at least that is how I go about it!
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According to Pabhongka Rinpoche in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, unless we do the offerings ourselves we will not accumulate any merits. An excerpt from the book says as follows:-
" You must put the offerings out yourself. If you make your pupils or your servant arrange the offerings, you will not receive any merits"
This is from the point of view of the person engaging someone else to do the offering on his/her behalf.
For the person engaged to do the offerings, I would imagine that with the rights motivation coupled with the physical actions in the process of making offering, merits would definitely be accumulated. The extent of merit would depend on the quality of the person's motivation, the lowest would be to obtain things for this life to the highest Bodhicitta motivation, the thought of attaining enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings,
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According to Pabhongka Rinpoche in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, unless we do the offerings ourselves we will not accumulate any merits. An excerpt from the book says as follows:-
" You must put the offerings out yourself. If you make your pupils or your servant arrange the offerings, you will not receive any merits"
This is from the point of view of the person engaging someone else to do the offering on his/her behalf.
For the person engaged to do the offerings, I would imagine that with the rights motivation coupled with the physical actions in the process of making offering, merits would definitely be accumulated. The extent of merit would depend on the quality of the person's motivation, the lowest would be to obtain things for this life to the highest Bodhicitta motivation, the thought of attaining enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings,
Thanks for sharing this, WT.
I can see the logic of this statement.
As with Karma and everything else in Buddhism, it is about empowering the self or the individual to do something for themselves - even to change their destiny so-to-speak.
I guess, when we seriously think about it, if we truly want to gain merits, we should do the acts itself that will grant us the merits.
In the same vein, if we want to purify our karma, we have to do the acts, prayers and pujas to purify and not someone else doing it for us.
I believe our motivation to do anything sets the stage, and our dedication after the act seals the deed.
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Dear Triesa, one can make merits by intangible methods too. Lama Gangchen once said " the 'cheapest' way to make merits is to truly rejoice in others good work and success"!
Yes, Damian D, I would say yes to your questions.
Whatever works involved in the process, be it set up, cleaning, sourcing, or any preparation towards a puja or a teachings given by a lama is meritorous.
I believe the key here is whatever you are doing towards any kinds of dharma activities, make a good motivation even for a simple job like cleaning the places or buying the offerings. Merits collection to propell our understanding of he dharma does not have to be only concerning with big sponsorships.
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i believe its all got to do with motivation as has been mentioned above.
How can it be that the Dalai Lama or even Trijang Rinpoche for that matter will put the offerings out themselves or they won't get the merits. Doesn't make sense does it.
And as Rihanna just mentioned if we can gain merits by rejoicing the we had better start rejoicing at everything that is virtuous as its the easiest way to create merits.
For the person who is just arranging the offerings of someone else. If the motivation is there i believe its the same as if they had offered themselves. If we with care attention to detail and even moreso with sincere prayers, doesn't it make sense that their will be merits gained?
Which do you think is better?
a/ visualise a stone as a huge diamond and offer it up...
OR?/????
b/ you can afford to make offerings grand but choose to make cheap offerings to save money.
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According to Pabhongka Rinpoche in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, unless we do the offerings ourselves we will not accumulate any merits. An excerpt from the book says as follows:-
" You must put the offerings out yourself. If you make your pupils or your servant arrange the offerings, you will not receive any merits"
This is from the point of view of the person engaging someone else to do the offering on his/her behalf.
For the person engaged to do the offerings, I would imagine that with the rights motivation coupled with the physical actions in the process of making offering, merits would definitely be accumulated. The extent of merit would depend on the quality of the person's motivation, the lowest would be to obtain things for this life to the highest Bodhicitta motivation, the thought of attaining enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings,
Thanks for sharing this, WT.
I can see the logic of this statement.
As with Karma and everything else in Buddhism, it is about empowering the self or the individual to do something for themselves - even to change their destiny so-to-speak.
I guess, when we seriously think about it, if we truly want to gain merits, we should do the acts itself that will grant us the merits.
In the same vein, if we want to purify our karma, we have to do the acts, prayers and pujas to purify and not someone else doing it for us.
I believe our motivation to do anything sets the stage, and our dedication after the act seals the deed.
Of course it would be ideal if we could make the offerings ourselves physically... however surely if we rejoice and "sponsor" the offerings merits are accumulated too! I think the key is the motivation behind it:
1. Are we making someone else prepare the offerings because we are lazy and it is easier to just buy the offerings and have someone else lay it out? OR are we making sure offerings are being made well and because we do not have the time, we have someone help us with it in order for that person to also gain merits in the physical work?
2. Do we choose "inferior" offerings even though we can afford it purely because we think it is a waste to "offer" expensive offerings because we do not consume it ourselves? OR do we give the best that we can afford even though it may not be expensive or extensive so long as it is from the heart and done with the best intent?
There is no absolute way as there are two sides to the coin. Hence to say one does not accumulate merits because one does not physically lay out the offerings, in mind is incorrect! It does not make sense!
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i believe its all got to do with motivation as has been mentioned above.
How can it be that the Dalai Lama or even Trijang Rinpoche for that matter will put the offerings out themselves or they won't get the merits. Doesn't make sense does it.
Well I think the Dalai Lama or Trijang Rinpoche do not need the merits because they have already accomplished the highest goal and have enough merits for themselves.
They are now in samsara in human form to help those of us who lack the merits. Their "problem" is not them not having enough merits but the beings they are trying to transform is having problem transforming because they do not have enough merits.
If they do make offerings, it is to show us a good example and to dedicate the merits for the beings they have the affinity with so that they can transform and be protected. The High Lamas also let their students do their offerings so that their students can collect merit.
Make sense?
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Of course it would be ideal if we could make the offerings ourselves physically... however surely if we rejoice and "sponsor" the offerings merits are accumulated too! I think the key is the motivation behind it:
1. Are we making someone else prepare the offerings because we are lazy and it is easier to just buy the offerings and have someone else lay it out? OR are we making sure offerings are being made well and because we do not have the time, we have someone help us with it in order for that person to also gain merits in the physical work?
2. Do we choose "inferior" offerings even though we can afford it purely because we think it is a waste to "offer" expensive offerings because we do not consume it ourselves? OR do we give the best that we can afford even though it may not be expensive or extensive so long as it is from the heart and done with the best intent?
There is no absolute way as there are two sides to the coin. Hence to say one does not accumulate merits because one does not physically lay out the offerings, in mind is incorrect! It does not make sense!
Your 2 points is correct and makes sense to me. Because we see sponsors sponsoring for pujas in the monasteries often... we do not see them making the physical offerings but they sponsored it for the monks to chant or do the prayers for them on top of that. So yes the key would say is your sincerity.
I think for your daily offerings... you will need to check why do you request your servant or maid or who ever to help? And is it a selfish like you say, lazy, too prideful, too busy due to worldly activities? We must ask ourselves sincerely and we must rejoice is all aspects of offering from the moment you shop, prepare and do it till the end.
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Your not the one actually doing the prayers.
You don't pay for the offerings.
Its not your commitment.
Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
Yes with good motivation. You give your time and effort to source and prepare for offerings, doing it happily :D, the puja goes smoothly and benefit other people.
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Your not the one actually doing the prayers.
You don't pay for the offerings.
Its not your commitment.
Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
of course you will collect some merits even though you did not do the prayer. Example in the monastery there are so many monks so it impossible for every monks to do the same things daily therefore each monk will have different responsibilities ie some monks do cleaning, some cooking, some plants vegetables, some in library, some take care of high lama, some do correspond which i believe all activities monks do are collect merit if that monks do with sincere, good motivation with the effort and want the best of result.
High lamas have many assistants to assist in many tasks in order to achieve many things which benefit others, more assistant he receive the more he can help people so this is right things and all assistants are collect merit even though they do in different tasks and of course the high lama collect merit too even though he did not do the preparation work.
Regarding to making offering, yes the best if we can do everything on our own from searching, purchase, set up till do a puja but if you have limit time as you need to do some other things which will benefit to others also i think you have people help you with set up an offering you will collect merit.
The bottom line is the motivation behind it, if you don't set up offering because of your laziness you know that not right.
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Your not the one actually doing the prayers.
You don't pay for the offerings.
Its not your commitment.
Yet, you prepare the offerings daily.
You go out to source for the offerings.
Would you make some merits when the person does the prayers?
We definitely collect the merits from any of the above because it is a collective actions that starts from sourcing to prayers. Some can't afford the offerings, some don't commit because their Guru did not instruct them to, some have no time to set up but have the time to do prayers. Whatever you do in a temple with the motivation to benefit others will definitely create merits. Merit is the result of good actions and intentions that will carry on to the next life.
For example, if a man is extremely thirsty and you give him water with your ego piously doing something good, the man still quenches his thirst. It’s a good action and good karma comes from this because we’ve helped another person. Although it’s not particularly influential in achieving buddhahood, this kind of charity would still be considered accumulation of merit.
For an offering to be complete, there needs to be an object, an offering and intention.
- The object can be the Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha) or the Three Roots (lama, yidam, protector).
- The offerings are the five sense objects: forms, sounds, smells, tastes and textures or touchables. In addition we add two waters, so altogether there are seven offerings.
- The intention is to be open to, connect with and appreciate the sublime beings’ compassionate blessings.
The way we make offerings is with care, love and affection. The offerings should be clean, our hands should be clean and the offerings arranged in a beautiful way. We never offer less then we have for ourselves. For example, when offering water, we offer nothing less then what we ourselves drink, be it spring water, purified water or mineral water. There is no limit to the amount of offerings that we may make; we can offer as much as we want or as much as we can afford. To make offerings we have to buy the material things we wish to offer. In order to buy the offerings, most of us have to work–money doesn’t just come without any effort. So it has meaning to spend money on the offerings to the sublime beings, and at the same time we are counteracting attachment. Offering whatever realization we may have is also appropriate. It cuts through any false pride we may harbor about ourselves as practitioners. Making sincere offerings of whatever we cling to opens the door to the flow of blessings. So no matter how large or small the offering, if we do it with a state of mind that is sincere and open-hearted, we can feel the offerings covering the whole sky. Then even a simple offering turns into the most exquisite, immense offering that you can imagine, and the connection is established.
However, you need effort, appreciation and generosity to make proper offerings. To make sure everything is the best you can afford, clean, and arranged beautifully–and to do this with mindfulness, non-attachment or ego-fixation and with regularity, so it is not so easy. But this is the whole point–offerings are not intended to be easy, but intended to open us to the blessings that flow from the sublime beings.
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I would say YES. We still can collect merits. When we sponsor a puja or Sangha to do pujas or sponsoring food because we cannot do it or cannot be there physically does not mean we are not doing it. In spirit, we are there making the offerings by the representation of the Sanghas offering them for us. Both parties do collect merits. When we do pujas it is an expression of our compassion and care for another person or being who may or has an obstacle, problem, difficulty, pain, sickness or fear to name a few.
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Dear Triesa,
To add to my earlier comment on this topic, one can also offer up pretty, colourful things that is enjoyable for the sight, great music, good stage performances or even a painting - it's a kind of sensory offerings that would please the enlightened beings.
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By making offerings, be it in the form of financial sponsorship or physically doing the laying out of the offerings are meritorious deeds. What is important is what is our motivation when the deed is done.
We shouldn’t judge or question why certain people make offerings in a certain way. Some people because of their financial position may not be able to afford to contribute financially and they instead contribute their time and physical work. Some may be able to afford financial help but cannot find so much time because of circumstances does not allow them to be physical to do it. Either way if motivation is right and proper I believe there is merit to whatever they do. An offering for a good cause and it is a combination of financial and physical resources.
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By making offerings, be it in the form of financial sponsorship or physically doing the laying out of the offerings are meritorious deeds. What is important is what is our motivation when the deed is done.
We shouldn’t judge or question why certain people make offerings in a certain way. Some people because of their financial position may not be able to afford to contribute financially and they instead contribute their time and physical work. Some may be able to afford financial help but cannot find so much time because of circumstances does not allow them to be physical to do it. Either way if motivation is right and proper I believe there is merit to whatever they do. An offering for a good cause and it is a combination of financial and physical resources.
Yes at the end of the day, as always, motivation is key. Regardless of whether we give the financial support or the physical support of the offering, I believe merit is accumulated. Sometimes due to a busy lifestyle AND the fact that we want someone else to benefit from making offerings, we can purchase the offerings and have someone else lay it out. I personally like to see someone making offerings in which they would never have the chance to or inclination if not given the opportunity.
Sure we can always "hog" the merits but then, to me, if that is the case, why am I accumulating merits to begin with? Surely my practice is about focusing out and giving... what better way, in my mind to create the causes for one to be able to accumulate merit by making wonderful offerings!
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Besides KARMA the next must used and referred word in Buddhism is MERITS. With the correct motivation and intentions that whatever we do is selfless and for the benefit of others will accumulate merits and with merits negative karma can be purified or subdued and positive karma enhanced.
There are many ways to accumulate merits and making offerings is one of the most common one. This article extensively talked about this very meritorious act of offering from the purchase of offerings for altars to the prayers been recited.
Let us find ways to create merits for benefit of others.