dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Big Uncle on January 28, 2012, 11:24:48 AM
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Here is a dilemma of a Dorje Shugden practitioner:-
I have two Lamas and one of them is the Dalai Lama and I sat through a Kalachakra initiation with him. After that, I met another Lama who is a Geshe and he taught me the commentary, set me on retreats, taught me the Lamrim, 50 Verses of Guru Devotion, Mind transformation teachings and so forth. Finally, he even gave me his special secret practice - Dorje Shugden. What do I do? Do I give up Dorje Shugden and look for another Lama who does not practice Dorje Shugden? Do I forget the Dalai Lama and carry on practicing? What do I do and what are the implications of either actions? Is there an alternative for me?
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You should have checked first. If you want to practice Dorje shugden the Dalai lama has requested you not be his student or go to his initations and if he's your Vajramaster which by default recieving the full Kalachakra tantra initation from him and not having recieved a HYT empowerment from any other master before him that would make him your Vajramaster.
Did you have the full initation or just the blessing because if it was the full initation thats a fair big commitment.
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I think you should recognize 1 guru as root guru between the 2 lamas. Choose the one which benefited you the most, and the one will keep you learning more, then follow all the way what the guru gives you.
Personally, I think choosing both is possible if my root guru is not Dalai Lama. Meaning I can still practice what DL gave me, but on the other hand I practice Dorje Shugden which my guru thinks it's beneficial to me. It's just like what DL always said, it's ok if you are Christian or Muslim, the point is you be a good person. So if practising Dorje Shugden (just like another religion) makes me a better person, to have a better life, then why not?
Sorry I am not familiar with the "rules and regulations" about initiations, but if initiations don't have restriction to practise something else from some guru else, I think you still have to freedom to do like this. Apologize if I made any silly suggestion.
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This is a common dilemma that many practitioners have been facing and are still facing. I would continue to practise Dorje Shugden quietly and continue to support the Dalai Lama. Nobody needs to know what I practise as long as I practise what's been given to me by my Guru. Keeping my Guru samaya clean is more important if I want attainments.
In this instance, I have the best of both. The Dalai Lama obviously has a higher reason for condemning Dorje Shugden. So no point going against the Dalai Lama. I believe that with time the ban on the practice will be lifted.
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Here is a dilemma of a Dorje Shugden practitioner:-
I have two Lamas and one of them is the Dalai Lama and I sat through a Kalachakra initiation with him. After that, I met another Lama who is a Geshe and he taught me the commentary, set me on retreats, taught me the Lamrim, 50 Verses of Guru Devotion, Mind transformation teachings and so forth. Finally, he even gave me his special secret practice - Dorje Shugden. What do I do? Do I give up Dorje Shugden and look for another Lama who does not practice Dorje Shugden? Do I forget the Dalai Lama and carry on practicing? What do I do and what are the implications of either actions? Is there an alternative for me?
Big Uncle, thank you for sharing this with us.
I am not in anyway in a situation like ours, so my thoughts on it are theoretical.
1. Is the Dalai Lama your root Guru?
I do not think that sitting at a Kalachakra initiation among many other thousands of people may be what qualifies the Dalai Lama as your root Guru, unless of course, you visualized His Holiness as your root Guru and HH also was the main Lama who brought you to Buddhism and that propelled you to start practicing, and even more so if the Dalai Lama is the monk that gave you refuge.
So, if I were you, I would find out first who is my root Guru, but I am sure you already have a clear answer on that.
2. If the Dalai Lama is not your root Guru and if your root Guru practices Dorje Shugden, I do not see any conflict to be resolved.
3. If the Dalai lama is your root Guru, there is indeed what appears to be a conflict, and you are finding yourself in a situation where many others are at the moment. And the best advise I can humbly give you is to learn as much as possible about the ban from this web-site (which is excellent) and elsewhere too and make your own decision as to the matter. Perhaps you should also request for guidance from the geshe that initiated you into the practice of Dorje Shugden.
4. At the end of the day, I would also divert from focusing onto a conflict that only has two solutions: "I practice / I don't practice", the matter may be less stringent than a choice between two solutions, there may be more than two solutions.
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Actually, I just read this post, and I find it is most remarkable and relevant to this topic also:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1614.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1614.0)
And I have xtracted this:
"Similarly when we approach one Lama and we are taught one thing but the next Lama whom we meet teaches us something contradicting, we should examine ourselves and not the qualified Lamas."
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Do what many monks do in secret. Treat both as your lamas. Keep your tantric vows and commitments if any but continue to practice DS. Do not attend DL's initiation and keep samaya clean with DL.
You did not mention which one is your root guru. If the Geshe is your root guru then do as above. If DL is your root guru, go ask the Geshe for advice if you have doubts. Otherwise, again do as above.
Personally, if I am you, I will continue both. DL has a higher reason. Don't take appearance literally. When in doubt, take Dharma as your refuge.
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Well, if I am in this situation, I will choose both. However it is best to ask your Geshe if you are in doubt. If I had taken initiation from HHDL, I will still keep a clean samaya with him, listen to his advise, put into practiced what he has taught me and at the same time do Dorje Shugden practices discreetly ;)
Think for yourself. Has Dorje Shugden helped and benefitted you in any ways? Learn from this website that provides you with logical information. Is Dorje Shugden a spirit? Is there a bigger reason why he is banning this practice? Are we at that level to understand what HHDL is doing?
I hope the ban will be lifted soon so that people like you will have their doubts cleared and will not face with this kind of dilemma.
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You may take may take another Kalachakra tantra initation from another Lama who will give you self generation oral transmission or You may take take Yamantaka empowerment from or any choose other three Main HYT empowerment from another Lama who give you DS empowerment. This is due to the four HYT empowerment are higher that Kalachakra tantra. That will make that Lama your root Guru instead of HHDL. Please consult that Lama for advice.
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Interesting topic...
Do we really have to choose only one? I too would like to choose both!
No doubt, the Dalai Lama has done so much for the benefit of mankind. Everywhere he goes, words of wisdom and compassion follows.
The same goes for our great Protector, Dorje Shugden. Interestingly, I have watched a couple of videos on youtube of Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama was giving teachings in foreign countries and he mentioned about Dorje Shugden. Albeit negatively but it still sends out a message that this Protector exist! This will stir the curiosity of the people in that country and they will search for more information regarding this 'evil spirit'.
Can this be the Dalai Lama's way of promoting Dorje Shugden to the world?
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It sounds like the Geshe is your root guru. Perhaps before when you have not met this lama who has given you so much such as your retreat and practice, you would not even need to go for initiation with Dalai Lama.
One should be so lucky to have one guru who can directly give you instructions and teachings. There is nothing better than that. So if I am you, I will stick to one guru who I have the fortune to meet and train under directly and gratefully do as he ask.
On the other hand, as many others here, I believe that HHDL will be very happy if you do continue to practice DS even though it may seem like it's not. It's all an illusory play. If there are future implications, then continue your practice in private. Hope this help!
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I don't know how true is this, but I heard that there are many Dorje Shugden practitioners, who do not openly declare to the world they are practicing Dorje Shugden, still goes to HH Dalai Lama's talk and initiations. Not only that, it is said that many people who work closely with Dalai Lama are in fact serious Dorje Shugden practitioners.
I think one of the good examples is 101th Gaden Tripa. He is a very devoted Dorje Shugde practitioner. I am sure HH Dalai Lama knows he is devoted practitioner, but why still allow him to be the Gaden Tripa?
I choose to believe this is just a part of the big plan to spread Dorje Shugden and Buddhism wide and far :)
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I would just keep both :)
If I have the fortune of ever attended any of HH's inititations, I would still keep my promise to HH for this is my practice. At the same time, I have also received many other initiations from other Lamas. So I will still keep it and would hold it as my daily practice. For Dorje Shugden practice, although the practice was banned by HHDL, but based on all the facts and reality that I found out, I know I am in the right and should keep on practicising it.
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Certainly choosing both would be the better solution, if you have the choice. Another alternative would be not to choose between the two. Since you had received the initiation from HH and you also have a Geshe, you would have to consider who is your root guru, for your root guru is the one person you have chose to be with you all your life. Obviously then you would choose your Geshe who has given you the DS practice; how could you give this up? Choose both then.
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Well... Personally, I do not think one needs to "choose" per se. It is a dilemma facing a lot of people at the moment. Especially ones caught directly within the netting of the ban. And they DO NOT have a choice because either way, they are suffering either socially or spiritually. The conundrum is not an easy one but one really needs to focus on what is important for oneself... do we want mere acceptance or do we want attainments.
I know speaking from across the pond is easy but if we really dwell deeper into this so called contradiction and ban, it is clear that there is a higher purpose behind it and we should apply resilience, empathy and patience but at the same time DO NOT give up on your practice and DO NOT break your samaya with your guru!
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Do what many monks do in secret. Treat both as your lamas. Keep your tantric vows and commitments if any but continue to practice DS. Do not attend DL's initiation and keep samaya clean with DL.
You did not mention which one is your root guru. If the Geshe is your root guru then do as above. If DL is your root guru, go ask the Geshe for advice if you have doubts. Otherwise, again do as above.
Personally, if I am you, I will continue both. DL has a higher reason. Don't take appearance literally. When in doubt, take Dharma as your refuge.
Although every one who replied has valid points, what Yonten Jamyang says is really to the point. Most monks do keep both the Dalai Lama and their gurus as their gurus.
If the Dalai Lama is your root guru, then I do believe that you should follow what he says - if he says, don't practice Dorje Shugden, then don't. I wouldn't know about secretly practicing Dorje Shugden's practice if HHDL is your root guru...
However if the Dalai Lama isn't your root guru, then I do believe that you should follow what your root guru tells you to do:
- If he doesn't have an opinion about the ban, but practicing it might endanger your guru's life, then practice it secretly.
- If your root guru continues to practice DS, then continue to practice DS.
- If your root guru doesn't practice DS and is very anti-Dorje Shugden, then perhaps you would have to contemplate whether your guru is part of the bigger picture (i.e. he really could still be secretly practicing DS!) or whether he has given up the practice altogether. It's very hard to decipher a living Buddha's actions, so if I were you: if my root guru gave me the DS practice, I would just continue doing it secretly.
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Choosing is not the question here. However determining who your root guru is will help with your answer. Asking your root guru what to do is the best way to go about this. If HHDL is your root Guru then follow his instructions. If your Root Guru tell you to practice Dorje Shugden then do it. Many practitioners are still practicing in secret, I'm sure they still follow the instruction of their root gurus to practice. But they need to do it secretly for now to avoid further problems.
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Do what many monks do in secret. Treat both as your lamas. Keep your tantric vows and commitments if any but continue to practice DS. Do not attend DL's initiation and keep samaya clean with DL.
You did not mention which one is your root guru. If the Geshe is your root guru then do as above. If DL is your root guru, go ask the Geshe for advice if you have doubts. Otherwise, again do as above.
Personally, if I am you, I will continue both. DL has a higher reason. Don't take appearance literally. When in doubt, take Dharma as your refuge.
This post speaks the truth. "When in doubt, take dharma as your refuge" is one of the best quotes I have heard in a while regarding the Dorje Shugden ban. Why make one small issue stop your dharma practice entirely? We shouldn't make it affect us to the point that we stop practicing. Dorje Shugden and the Dalai should be seen as one. After all the enlightened mind is the same, there should be no difference between them. Appearance isn't everything, there is always great purpose behind something that is perceived to be as bad.
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First of all, which is your root Guru? This should determine which Guru to follow.
If both of them are not your root Guru you may then follow both of them.
No doubt Dalai Lama ban Lord Shugden practices but it’s for a bigger picture. Look at how well DS monasteries doing outside. Don’t let go the opportunity from practicing lord Shugden as he is very powerful and has been practicing by the lineage master. They can never be wrong.
Suggest to just follow both and just do DS practices secretly until the ban lifted!
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Personally I would keep both and keep my practice of Dorje Shugden quietly. The HHDL must have a valid reason for him to ban the practice in the public over the years.
But if you are worried of breaking vow or samaya then check with the Guru that confers you the Dorje Shugden practice.
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I think its about faith ultimately. I can't read your mind but I know my own so I will share based on my thoughts.I hv faith in both my root guru and DL. You may ask how is that possible for me? Because they both teach the same dharma , share the same lineage and has no other agenda besides benefitting all living beings - there is nothing to separate one from the other. As root guru, his instructions are the essential practice I need . If he gives me a protector /yidam practice,that has to be what I need for now. If another Lama advices against it, for me it is a general advice and not a personal one. The instructions given by my Root Guru has more benefit karmically and takes precedence.
I don't see the DL's ban as evil or contradictory to my own practice as it arises from his wisdom for a larger picture and larger good . Due to my own ignorance, my opinions are unreliable whether to support, reject or criticise his decision at this point in time but I can rely on my strong faith in DL that whatever he is doing can only be wise decision ultimately.
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I agree with most that had shared their views that -
1) who do you consider as your root guru ?
2) if DL is not your root guru, then solution is simple - follow your oot guru's instruction
If you consider DL as your root guru, then you have a choice of -
1) follow his instruction literally on face value
2) find out more, contemplate , apply your own intuative wisdom and see from different perspectives . Either way, it is your own decision, no absolute right or wrong.
Whatever you decide to do is your own business, you don't need to let others know. Protector practice is after all, a secret practice. Most important is NOT to condemn others who do not share your views.
Spiritual practice is a very personal thing. No one is obligated to declare to others what they follow and blieve in their hearts.
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Well, you referred to both as Lamas and not your Guru. Yes, you attended HHDL initiation but that doesn't mean that you have taken Him as your root Guru. So this doesn't mean that with you practicing Dorje Shugden, it is going against HHDL. Who have benefitted you the most, HHDL or the Geshe that gave you Dorje Shugden? Sometimes it is hard to choose especially in a situation like this. I will personally choose Dorje Shugden as He has helped me a lot during my difficult times. ;D
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I have to say I will keep both. In fact I am still. I can't just make a turn on Dorje shugden's practise as He has helped me in the past. I will not forget that Dorje Shugden has helped me through my difficult times. It is definite that I will keep His practise as if it is my life. I have a lot of respect of Dalai Lama but I do sit on the fence and do both. I am not trying to say I have two face but I am thinking logically that Dorje Shugden can't be a spirit and practice Dorje Shugden will make Dalai Lama's life shorter. Dalai Lama is a Bodhisattva and Chenrezig himself. How will practicing a spirit practice can harm a Bodhisartva's life? We check it. We don't simply jump on something just like that.
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I don't see why it has to be a choice. One is a lama, one is a protector. The lama teaches the doctrine of the great saint Lama Tsongkhapa whilst the protector exists to protect the teachings of Nagarjuna which has been flawlessly taught by Lama Tsongkhapa. It is a choice only in our minds, because we have made it to be come a choice - with politics and what we think should and shouldnt be. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that it is because of the ban that so many are put in this dilemma, so many have to make heartbreaking either or choices, like Big Uncle. Whatever it is, to me the motivation and sincerity works best. Seek permission from one's root guru, and do as advised.
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I believe you have already checked out your root Guru (Geshe) before you follow his teachings and all the practices that he gives you. Once we have checked out and choose a Guru, we should follow through all his instructions as he will know what’s best for us.
If you have doubts on Dorje Shugden, I suggest you checked out on this forum and dorjeshugden.com. For me, DS has been practiced by all the great masters (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37)) such as HH Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Domo Geshe Rinpoche, His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche, etc and even the previous HHDL. Would these Masters wrong? Therefore, I choose to believe that HH Dalai Lama has a bigger picture for the ban.
DS is a protector practise that supports us in our spiritual journey by removing obstacles and creating more positive conditions for us to practise. Although as of now I may not be able to practise DS openly due to the ban, personally DS has helped me a lot to clear a lot of obstacles in my spiritual journey and I have more chances to practise Dharma and be connected with my Guru. I am sure he will help anyone who believes in him too. Therefore, I strongly urge you to just follow your Guru’s instruction and practice. ;)
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No matter what's happen this is a personal important issue between you and your root guru. Practice dorje shugden impossible will harm others on top of that even will help you on your spiritual path so i don't see why should give up this practice. All practices given by root guru is top priority, should not doubts for all your guru instruction. I am totally agreed should keep both practice, if still feel not comfortable should seek advise from any geshe.
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Is this in the right section because this the general Buddhism thread not the Dorje Shugden thread? Anyways, I think you should have examined both teachers. Which one do you believe you have more of an affinity with, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama or the other guru. Personally, I would pick both but more on the Dorje Shugden side. I still respect His Holiness and I believe that his in no doubt, an Enlightened being. I still have the freedom to trust in Dorje Shugden because he is an Enlightened. I do believe that the Dalai Lama is enlightened,so he has his reasons for "banning" Dorje Shugden. Don't worry, there will come a time when Dalai Lama will openly say, "Dorje Shugden is good!"
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Many practitioners ask this question many times as to how they would and could practise. How else? I would continue to practise Dorje Shugden quietly and keep practising what my Guru has given me. Have it best of both ways. We do not need to announce the whole world that we practise Dorje Shugden.
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i will still practice the kalachakra as i received from the Dalai Lama, and secretly practice Dorje shugden as my Guru kindly given to me. i think you have gain many benefit from Dorje shugden before and you know he is the buddha so there is no reason to not practice Manjushri who provide us a wisdom.
As i can see that the Dalai Lama has a bigger reason behind to ask everyone stop the practice of Dorje Shugden except H.E.Trijang Rinpoche..
I pray that the ban of Dorje shugden is lift soon and everyone can openly practice Dorje shugden..