dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on October 24, 2011, 07:34:51 AM
-
Once a being has achieved buddhahood, can his buddhahood degenerate?
I have heard that up some level, bodhichitta can degenerate, but can buddhahood degenerate?
Can a Buddha degenerate and become a sentient being?
-
It is said that before a being achieves buddhahood, he has to complete ten bodhisattva grounds. These are known as 'causal grounds'.
Upon seeing the truth ( path of seeing), a bodhisattva needs to meditate and abandon intellectually- formed delusions ,self grasping and overcome innate self-grasping.
There are 9 levels of innate self grasping : big-big, middling-big, small-big, big-middling, middling-middling, small-middling, big-small, middling-small and small-small.
Bodhisattvas on the path of seeing enter meditative equipoise on emptiness to overcome big-big innate self grasping.When their wisdom of meditative equipoise becomes powerful enough to act as the direct antidote to big-big innate self grasping, it has transformed into the wisdom of meditative equipoise of the uninterrupted path of meditation of the first ground. At this point the Bodhisattva advances to the Mahayana path of meditation to abandon the big-big innate self-grasping. When this abandonment has occurred, the Bodhisattva has attained the released path of the second Bodhisattva ground, Stainless. The good qualities of a Bodhisattva on this ground is multiplied a thousand times. These Bodhisattvas then arise from meditation and work to help others. Later, they enter meditation again to abandon middling-big innate self-grasping.
When Bodhisattvas have abandoned middling-big innate self-grasping they advance to the third ground. The process of entering into meditation and work to help others in their meditation breaks continue till they advance to the eighth ground.
On the eighth ground Bodhisattvas have abandoned all self grasping and all delusions, but they still have obstructions to omniscience. Once again, they enter meditation on emptiness. When they have abandoned the gross obstructions to omniscience they advance to the ninth ground to abandon the subtle obstruction to omniscience.
When Bodhisattvas on the tenth ground enter meditation equipoise on emptiness their wisdom becomes powerful enough to act as the direct antidote to the very subtle obstructions to omniscience. This concentration is known as the 'vajra-like concentration of the path of meditation'. It is also called the 'exalted wisdom of the final continuum' because it is the last moment of the mind of a sentient being. In the next moment the Bodhisattva becomes a Buddha.
In the final session, Bodhisattvas free themselves from the very subtle obstructions to omniscience and attain the final released path - the Mahayana Path of No More Learning. When this path is attained, the Bodhisattva has become a Buddha and has gained the exalted omniscient wisdom. At this time the meditator attains the four bodies of a Buddha. Bodhisattvas on the tenth ground have many emanations, and all their emanations work for the benefit of all living beings.
So once a being has become a buddha, his buddhahood will not degenerate because this being has abandoned all innate self-grasping and the subtlest obstruction to omniscience.
I think after attaining the eighth ground, bodhichitta will not degenerate.
No, a Buddha will not degenerate and become a sentient being but he can emanate as an ordinary being to work and help others.
-
Thank you Kurava, your explanations are very clear.
-
I thought 3 level Bodhisttvas cannot degenerate anymore ?
Also Arhats they can't come back to samsara right?
-
There are many levels of realizations. At the entry level is what the Mahayanists called the Path of Seeing.This removes intellectually acquired delusions. But there are still the imprints of delusions which need to be removed over the whole Path of Meditation mentioned by Kurava.
I agree a fully enlightened being cannot degenerate because they have extinguished all negative karma and do not have the causes to harm or suffer.
Such attainments are true cessations and irreversible.
-
Also Arhats they can't come back to samsara right?
Thanks Dharma Space for this bonus question, please allow me to turn it into 2 questions:
question 1:
Can Arhat come back to samsara?
Is arhatship reversible?
question 2:
Arhatship is achieved without bodhichitta?
Can we call arhaship an enlightenment without bodhichitta?
And if the answer to question 1 is YES, is this "missing bodhichitta" the reason for it?
-
After watching the video clip "Documentary on Tulku" about Tulku that took rebirth in the West, I have these questions :
1) If tulkus are high masters who could control their rebirth, what ground are they on their spiritual training?
2) The tulkus that took rebirth in the West seem reluctant to continue with their bodhisattva career, are they degenerating?
Thanks.
-
After watching the video clip "Documentary on Tulku" about Tulku that took rebirth in the West, I have these questions :
1) If tulkus are high masters who could control their rebirth, what ground are they on their spiritual training?
2) The tulkus that took rebirth in the West seem reluctant to continue with their bodhisattva career, are they degenerating?
Thanks.
One thing I can say about this, for I personally know of a young tulku in "the West".
And I was warned by my Teacher to look after him for he might turn as a mischievous adult if he does not reconnect with the practices that propelled him to take rebirth again as a tulku.
This made me think some more about is:
If he turns mischievous (I pray not!), would it be because he has not attained enough realization, or because I did not stood up to the task and did not create the causes for him to resume his practice?
I think, likely a combination of both, after all there is no him and I, there is us.
In the same vein, even some Rinpoche's "seem" reluctant to continue on their bodhisattva path.
Bu then, I think, this can only be because the students that they came back for are not creating the causes for their Teacher to manifest as a Teacher.
If the students show degeneracy, failing Guru samaya, or put mundane above supra mundane, the Teacher might do the same in an attempt to teach them something...
In this case it is not degeneracy from the side of the Teacher.
-
In response to Kurava's question -If tulkus are high masters who could control their rebirth, what ground are they on their spiritual training? - I would like to refer to the Dalai Lama's explanation of three classes of Tulkus.
The three classes or types are:
1) tulkus who are emanations of Fully Enlightened Beings;
2) tulkus who are incarnations of Bodhisattvas(who have not attained full enlightenment); and
3) tulkus who are incarnations of previous great Masters who reincarnate to continue their teachings and their spread of Dharma.
Among the three, the first one, tulkus who are emanations of fully enlightened beings, would not require any more spiritual training.
-
After watching the video clip "Documentary on Tulku" about Tulku that took rebirth in the West, I have these questions :
1) If tulkus are high masters who could control their rebirth, what ground are they on their spiritual training?
2) The tulkus that took rebirth in the West seem reluctant to continue with their bodhisattva career, are they degenerating?
Thanks.
One thing I can say about this, for I personally know of a young tulku in "the West".
And I was warned by my Teacher to look after him for he might turn as a mischievous adult if he does not reconnect with the practices that propelled him to take rebirth again as a tulku.
This made me think some more about is:
If he turns mischievous (I pray not!), would it be because he has not attained enough realization, or because I did not stood up to the task and did not create the causes for him to resume his practice?
I think, likely a combination of both, after all there is no him and I, there is us.
In the same vein, even some Rinpoche's "seem" reluctant to continue on their bodhisattva path.
Bu then, I think, this can only be because the students that they came back for are not creating the causes for their Teacher to manifest as a Teacher.
If the students show degeneracy, failing Guru samaya, or put mundane above supra mundane, the Teacher might do the same in an attempt to teach them something...
In this case it is not degeneracy from the side of the Teacher.
This is a intellectual and interesting thread. On this same line of thoughts about Tulkus in the West who are reluctant, then I ask about monks who disrobe? Are monks then Buddhas? If so by disrobing are they not degenerating?
-
Tulkus just means 'emanation body'. They are not necessarily Buddhas. There are some Tulkus that are really emanations of Buddhas while many of them are simply reincarnation of past great masters who are somewhat advanced in the their practice but are not fully enlightened. Therefore, some Tulkus can go wayward if they are guided properly so that the aspirations and prayers from previous life can come to fruition.
Monkhood does not mean one is a fully enlightened Buddha. Monkhood means one upholds the vows of the Vinaya and therefore a vehicle to attain full enlightenment. Disrobing is degeneration of the Dharma and not the degeneration from being an exalted state of a Buddha.
A fully enlightened Buddha has no degeneration. It is the inherent nature of all sentient Beings. Since it is inherent, it cannot be corrupted once we have realized this nature. Degeneration can only happen along the path as we have not realized our true nature yet. On top of that, if Buddhas can degenerate, they will not be suitable objects of refuge.
-
Tulkus just means 'emanation body'. They are not necessarily Buddhas. There are some Tulkus that are really emanations of Buddhas while many of them are simply reincarnation of past great masters who are somewhat advanced in the their practice but are not fully enlightened. Therefore, some Tulkus can go wayward if they are guided properly so that the aspirations and prayers from previous life can come to fruition.
Monkhood does not mean one is a fully enlightened Buddha. Monkhood means one upholds the vows of the Vinaya and therefore a vehicle to attain full enlightenment. Disrobing is degeneration of the Dharma and not the degeneration from being an exalted state of a Buddha.
A fully enlightened Buddha has no degeneration. It is the inherent nature of all sentient Beings. Since it is inherent, it cannot be corrupted once we have realized this nature. Degeneration can only happen along the path as we have not realized our true nature yet. On top of that, if Buddhas can degenerate, they will not be suitable objects of refuge.
Thank you Big Uncle for a clear explanation.
And indeed... it is logical: if Buddhas can degenerate, how could the possibly be suitable objects of refuge?
-
Dear Kurava,
Thanks for the comprehensive and clear explanation. Anyhow, it is illogical for a fully awakened or Enlightened person to degenerate. With Perfect Wisdom and Bodhicitta, how can there be any room for degeneration? Doesn't make sense.
It is said that before a being achieves buddhahood, he has to complete ten bodhisattva grounds. These are known as 'causal grounds'.
Upon seeing the truth ( path of seeing), a bodhisattva needs to meditate and abandon intellectually- formed delusions ,self grasping and overcome innate self-grasping.
There are 9 levels of innate self grasping : big-big, middling-big, small-big, big-middling, middling-middling, small-middling, big-small, middling-small and small-small.
Bodhisattvas on the path of seeing enter meditative equipoise on emptiness to overcome big-big innate self grasping.When their wisdom of meditative equipoise becomes powerful enough to act as the direct antidote to big-big innate self grasping, it has transformed into the wisdom of meditative equipoise of the uninterrupted path of meditation of the first ground. At this point the Bodhisattva advances to the Mahayana path of meditation to abandon the big-big innate self-grasping. When this abandonment has occurred, the Bodhisattva has attained the released path of the second Bodhisattva ground, Stainless. The good qualities of a Bodhisattva on this ground is multiplied a thousand times. These Bodhisattvas then arise from meditation and work to help others. Later, they enter meditation again to abandon middling-big innate self-grasping.
When Bodhisattvas have abandoned middling-big innate self-grasping they advance to the third ground. The process of entering into meditation and work to help others in their meditation breaks continue till they advance to the eighth ground.
On the eighth ground Bodhisattvas have abandoned all self grasping and all delusions, but they still have obstructions to omniscience. Once again, they enter meditation on emptiness. When they have abandoned the gross obstructions to omniscience they advance to the ninth ground to abandon the subtle obstruction to omniscience.
When Bodhisattvas on the tenth ground enter meditation equipoise on emptiness their wisdom becomes powerful enough to act as the direct antidote to the very subtle obstructions to omniscience. This concentration is known as the 'vajra-like concentration of the path of meditation'. It is also called the 'exalted wisdom of the final continuum' because it is the last moment of the mind of a sentient being. In the next moment the Bodhisattva becomes a Buddha.
In the final session, Bodhisattvas free themselves from the very subtle obstructions to omniscience and attain the final released path - the Mahayana Path of No More Learning. When this path is attained, the Bodhisattva has become a Buddha and has gained the exalted omniscient wisdom. At this time the meditator attains the four bodies of a Buddha. Bodhisattvas on the tenth ground have many emanations, and all their emanations work for the benefit of all living beings.
So once a being has become a buddha, his buddhahood will not degenerate because this being has abandoned all innate self-grasping and the subtlest obstruction to omniscience.
I think after attaining the eighth ground, bodhichitta will not degenerate.
No, a Buddha will not degenerate and become a sentient being but he can emanate as an ordinary being to work and help others.
-
What Are the Four Current Types of Buddhism?
It is said that there are four types of Buddhism being practiced all over the world.
Religious Buddhism. It refers to the religion practiced in Buddhist temples. The Asian countries witness numerous Buddhist monasteries, especially in Taiwan, but it is not the real Buddhism. What people do in those temples and monasteries are giving offerings and incense to the monks and the paying reverence to the image of the Buddha.
Academic Buddhism. It can be witnessed in many universities in Japan. As an academic pursuit, Buddhist is taught purely as philosophy but not exactly Buddhist education. It seems that the study of Buddhism is to seek shiny labels to slap on one’s reputation. The knowledge of Buddhism is based on the understanding of the Buddha’s teaching, but not on the purpose of showing off.
Degenerated Buddhism. Buddhism is degenerated into cult by some in some area. This is the most unfortunate things. Buddhism opens a door for people to attain spiritual freedom and enlightenment, but it is used as cult to confused and distracted people who believe in it. If one wants to gain a promotion or wealth by chanting Buddha’s name.
-
Also Arhats they can't come back to samsara right?
Thanks Dharma Space for this bonus question, please allow me to turn it into 2 questions:
question 1:
Can Arhat come back to samsara?
Is arhatship reversible?
question 2:
Arhatship is achieved without bodhichitta?
Can we call arhaship an enlightenment without bodhichitta?
And if the answer to question 1 is YES, is this "missing bodhichitta" the reason for it?
Interesting thread. I found something may shed some light for the above questions.
Chittamatra
In general, the Chittamatra school of tenets speaks of three major castes or families:
1. the shravaka family of listeners to Buddha’s teachings,
2. the pratyekabuddha family of self-evolvers,
3. the bodhisattva family.According to Chittamatra, the naturally abiding family-traits are the seeds (sa-bon) that, without beginning, are imputable on the basis of the stained mind of each limited being (sentient being) and which serve as factors allowing that being to attain one of three purified states (byang-chub, Skt. bodhi). The purified states are those of an arhat (liberated being) – either a shravaka arhat or pratyekabuddha arhat – or that of an enlightened being (bodhisattva arhat, Buddha).
The evolving family-traits are the seeds that, newly gained by listening to, contemplating, or meditating on Buddha’s teachings, are imputable on the basis of the stained mind of each limited being and which serve as factors allowing that being to attain arya pathway minds (‘ phags-lam) in the category of shravakas, pratyekabuddhas, or bodhisattvas. The arya pathways of mind are seeing pathway minds (path of seeing), accustoming pathway minds (path of meditation), and pathway minds needing no further training (paths of no more training).
One or Three Ultimate Vehicles of Mind
Within the Chittamatra school, the Followers of Scripture (lung-gi rjes-‘brang-gi sems-tsam-pa) and the Followers of Logic (rigs-pa’i rjes-‘brang-gi sems-tsam-pa) both accept the above assertions, but differ concerning further details.
Chittamatra Followers of Scripture assert, in addition to limited beings of the shravaka, pratyekabuddha, or bodhisattva families, there are persons of uncertain family and persons of no family.
Persons of uncertain family are those limited beings who have naturally abiding family-traits, but which are not specifically in the shravaka, pratyekabuddha, or bodhisattva categories.
Persons of no family are those limited beings whose naturally abiding family-traits have been severed, either temporarily or forever. No matter how many evolving traits they may build up after they have severed their roots of positive force (dge-ba’i rtsa-ba) (equivalent to the naturally-abiding family traits), they can never develop renunciation and reach liberation.
The Followers of Scripture assert that among shravaka and pratyekabuddha arhats who have achieved nirvana with residue (lhag-bcas-kyi mya-ngan-‘das), some may enter the bodhisattva path and some may chose not to enter it. Once these arhats have passed away from the lifetime in which they have achieved arhatship – in other words, once they have achieved nirvana without residue (lhag-bcas-kyi mya-ngan-‘das), they are no longer able to enter the bodhisattva path. Thus, Chittamatra Followers of Scripture assert three ultimate vehicles of mind (mthar-thug theg-pa, ultimate vehicles) – shravaka-yana, pratyekabuddha-yana, and bodhisattva-yana. In other words, they assert three ultimate goals that can be achieved and then last forever – shravaka arhatship, pratyekabuddha arhatship, and Buddhahood.
The Chittamatra Followers of Logic do not accept that anyone’s roots of positive force can be severed completely. Thus, they do not assert that there are limited beings of no family. Moreover, they assert only one ultimate vehicle of mind. Thus, all shravaka and pratyekabuddha arhats, even after achieving nirvana without residue, will eventually develop bodhichitta and enter the bodhisattva path. The only goal that will last forever is that of Buddhahood.
Source:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/buddha_nature/buddha_nature_according.html (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/buddha_nature/buddha_nature_according.html)[/list]
-
I was just discussing this very issue with a friend recently. We were discussing if the innate Buddha nature in all sentient beings meant that we used to have this Buddha nature but we had covered it with crap (our negative karma) so we had to clear the crap in order to rediscover our Buddha nature and become Buddhas (again?). Now, if that is true, does it mean that we were Buddhas before? But we had somehow degenerated? Or was our initial state of being that of what we are now – i.e. with a Buddha nature but covered with crap.
I know that we have been around since beginningless time and that it doesn’t matter how we were created or how we came into being, but what we do with our present lives, but I am curious whether in the beginning, were we pure and somehow became unpure? Because that would reveal some light into this very topic.
-
In my opinion, Buddhas do not degenerate because they are already enlightened. Arhats, or foe destroyers, having extinguished all defilements, are not reborn again. The title "arhat", meaning "worthy one" is one of the epithets given to the Buddha. Arhats have attained Nirvana, the state beyond sorrow and therefore have liberated themselves from cyclic existence. At this stage, falling back is impossible. Even those who are not fully enlightened but after death, manage to be reborn in a pureland like Sukhavati, will also become enlightened and enter Nirvana after one further rebirth in Sukhavati.
However, bodhisattvas who have not yet gained direct perception of the meaning of emptiness can degenerate. This is because bodhicitta is not stable at this stage. This is the level of the ordinary bodhisattva, not the aryas who have already experienced direct realisation of emptiness. It is said that during the 8th level (bhumi) of the stages of development, bodhisattvas are incapable of backsliding and will progress towards Buddhahood. There are also bodhisattvas who delay their Buddhahood in order to remain in samsara to lead beings to seek enlightenment. These are fully enlightened beings who, out of compassion for sentient beings, decide to remain in samsara but they are actually out of samsara.
-
To answer Hope Rainbow's question on whether arhats come back to Samsara, well... I don't think so because they have entered Nirvana and are free from the suffering of cyclic existence. I know of meditators who deliberately chose the path of arhatship because they couldn't bear to be reborn in samsara again. For them, the path of the bodhisattva is too long. This means that if they wish to become Buddhas after attaining arhatship, they would have to cross the stream twice. My guess is they continue to practice after death by following certain Buddhas. They would attain enlightenment in a pureland.
Is arhatship reversible? I don't think so.
Can arhatship be achieved without bodhicitta? Yes, in the case of the Shravakas and the Pratyekabuddhas.
Is arhatship enlightenment without bodhicitta? Yes and No. Yes in the sense that they do not have as their goal the altruistic aim of saving all sentient beings. No, because all arhats have to eradicate greed and selfishness. They also inspire others to achieve liberation out of compassion. Theravadin monks who have attained realisations are very compassionate and have large followings of disciples. Even devas and nagas seek their teachings.
Do arhats come back to samsara? If I were an arhat, I wouldn't want to come back to samsara. I would settle to be a less noble being than a Buddha but at least I'm free. Arhatship is one of the three ideals but the highest and noblest ideal is that of Buddhahood. The other ideal is that of a Silent Buddha. Look at it this way. As one Buddhist monk I know said, not everyone is capable of becoming a doctor, just as not all scientists can be Einsteins and Newtons. There must be some lesser scientists who nevertheless help the world according to their capabilities.
-
A fully enlightened Buddha has no degeneration. It is the inherent nature of all sentient Beings. Since it is inherent, it cannot be corrupted once we have realized this nature. Degeneration can only happen along the path as we have not realized our true nature yet. On top of that, if Buddhas can degenerate, they will not be suitable objects of refuge.
I fully agree with Big Uncle. Buddhas cannot degenerate. Buddha nature is pure and will not degenerate.
I was just discussing this very issue with a friend recently. We were discussing if the innate Buddha nature in all sentient beings meant that we used to have this Buddha nature but we had covered it with crap (our negative karma) so we had to clear the crap in order to rediscover our Buddha nature and become Buddhas (again?). Now, if that is true, does it mean that we were Buddhas before? But we had somehow degenerated? Or was our initial state of being that of what we are now – i.e. with a Buddha nature but covered with crap.
Yes Buddha nature abides in sentient beings all this while but due to the temporary obscuration of their minds, sentient beings have not yet recognised their Buddha nature. Once these obscurations are fully cleared sentient beings become Buddhas. No, we were not Buddhas before!
I know that we have been around since beginningless time and that it doesn’t matter how we were created or how we came into being, but what we do with our present lives, but I am curious whether in the beginning, were we pure and somehow became unpure? Because that would reveal some light into this very topic.
Sentient beings’ Buddha nature is always pure in the past, in the present or in the future. It is not that the Buddha nature has become impure, it is that sentient beings have not yet cleared the impurity!
-
This is an interesting thread. There are a few more inputs that I would like to add, tho.
On the topic of arahats, there are mahayana arahats and theravarda arahats. I have read about something that Hsuan Hua said about a practitioner who got annoyed at the fish who was swimming in the pool near his cave and distracting him with the flapping of the fishes' tale, and he made a wish/grudge that he would reincarnate as a bird to eat it. The practitioner somehow attained arahatship, but after many aeons, he fell from his self absorption and really reincarnated as a bird. Hsuan Hua also describes arahats being practitioners who got stuck during a certain stage of meditation and instead of opting for full enlightenment, opted for the bliss of one of the dhyana levels instead. According to him, this stage is actually reversible. Thus, arahatship is more or less a kind of suspended animation, where 0 karma is created by the body, speech and mind, and therefore there is no way to experience its results. Since there is no way to experience suffering, compassion, wisdom, skillful means cannot arise so how can be fully enlightened? The theravardans however, believe that arahatship is equal to attaining enlightenment and that is the ultimate goal, to be free of suffering. The word arahat is also used to describe a being who is completely free of suffering, and is also used to venerate the Buddha.
On the degeneration of tulkus, my friend have encountered a tulku who was recognized by the dalai lama. he was even given robes but he refused to return to the monastery, in exchange for sexual pleasures. He is very boastful and tells people he does Chod practice as well as fire pujas, and claims that he is of the same incarnation line as padampa sangye. He also boasts that the land deities gives him money and he has not worked in a year but still has money. Personally, if a tulku can become like this, it is extremely sad indeed as it seems that he has completely forgotten about his purpose to spread the Dharma and instead engage in samsaric activities....he claims that he still wants to benefit sentient beings....through an environmental group. How can a dharma teacher become this way?