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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on February 11, 2011, 09:10:57 PM
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Dalai Lama's visit to Gaden/Drepung Feb 2011
1. In a private meeting with Abbots/Ex Abbots, Dalai Lama mentioned the ex abbot of Gyume Tantric College (who hails from Gaden Jangtze) hasn't come to see him for a few years already. Doesn't come for teachings. With that mention, the Abbot of Gaden Jangtze wrote a letter to Gyume Kensur Rinpoche in France expelling him from Gaden Jangtze Monastery immediately. No ex abbot or abbot has ever been expelled in Gaden's history.
The abbot of Jangtze was so frightened and eager to please the Dalai Lama in any way he can he expelled Gyume Kensur on that basis alone. Dalai Lama could have stopped the expulsion easily, but he didn't. A noteworthy point is the Gyume Kensur is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze. Disciples have to expel Gurus these days in such political uncertainty. Gyume Kensur continues to reside in France.
In time Gyume Kensur would have ascended the throne to be Jangtze Choeje Rinpoche (Dharma Lord of the North) and then to the Gaden Tripa Throne. Now it is not possible with his expulsion.
2. In Drepung Dalai Lama mentioned that there are some Tulkus and Lamas who play two faces. In front of the Dalai Lama they claimed to have given up Dorje Shugden while secretly practicing from behind. It was a disturbing statement. The monks mentioned it was aimed at Jampa Rinpoche and Denma Locho Rinpoche.
Jampa Rinpoche is a direct disciple of the previous Ling Rinpoche, strong Shugden practitioner, known to be a scholar and very dedicated to the Monastery. Jampa Rinpoche is already in his 70's. It was observed the monks of Shar Gaden Monastery quietly went to Jampa Rinpoche's house (Labrang) to receive teachings. Jampa Rinpoche of course should not have any connections to Shar Gaden. Based on this, he is suspected now.
Denma Locho Rinpoche fell from grace of the Dalai Lama's favour because he went to Taiwan to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's centre and was photographed with their members. Tritul Rinpoche has been banned by Tibetan Govt and expelled from Gaden Jangtze where he is from. Any associations with Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is very 'dangerous' in relations to the Tibetan Govt. If you associate with Serkong Tritul or his centre (due to a few factors of which one is their Shugden practice), you will be watched, suspected and eventually confirmed to have Shugden ties.
3. There was around 500 Indian police deployed during the Dalai Lama's stay in Gaden/Drepung. There were four top brass police officers who stayed throughout and were the guests of Shar Gaden Monastery. Shar Gaden played host to these high ranking officers.
Good to update, no untowardness or negative circumstances occured to Shar Gaden during the Dalai Lama's visit.
TK
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It's good to hear that nothing bad happened in Shar Gaden or to Shugdenpas during HHDL's stay in Gaden.
It's really sad though, to read that even the elderly monks are not 'spared' by the TGIE's. Even on a samsaric level, if there was a 70 y/o man standing in a trial he/she would be treated more leniently. No Shugdenpa is spared by the TGIE it seems...
Whenever I read things that seem so terrible, I can't help but wonder if this is all planned.... I mean, reading about how Gyume Kensur Rinpoche got expelled by his own student. Is this the first in Buddhist history? If these teachers are so highly attained, would they not have the foresight to see things that will happen and hence avoid it? Or was it all planned out?
Or even with Denma Locho Rinpoche taking photos in Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's centre. Wouldn't he have known that it's dangerous to do such a thing?
Are all these highly-attained being working together, or are they really all mistakes that got them in "trouble"?
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Or even with Denma Locho Rinpoche taking photos in Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's centre. Wouldn't he have known that it's dangerous to do such a thing?
Are all these highly-attained being working together, or are they really all mistakes that got them in "trouble"?
Denma Locho Rinpoche is a High Lama and quite a senior monk, he probably was unaware of the seriousness of the connection until TGIE came down hard on him. It is really sad and a sure sign of our degenerate times! Who would imagine disciples singling out their Gurus to be expelled from the monastery. It sounds almost like the cultural revolution of China. It is really really disturbing and on top of that, Lamas who play two faces? Come on! Almost every other Lama, Tulku, Rinpoche and Geshe has had connections directly or indirectly with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and other great Dorje Shugden Lamas. As for Jampa Rinpoche giving teachings to monks from Shar Gaden, I think he is a very kind Lama to risk his reputation like this... May all of us have this courage.
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The abbot of Jangtze was so frightened and eager to please the Dalai Lama in any way he can he expelled Gyume Kensur on that basis alone. Dalai Lama could have stopped the expulsion easily, but he didn't. A noteworthy point is the Gyume Kensur is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze. Disciples have to expel Gurus these days in such political uncertainty. Gyume Kensur continues to reside in France.
TK
Disciples expelling Gurus..........What an era we are living in!!! Perhaps the abbot of Jangtse would like to re-write the "50 stanzes of Guru Devotion" ???
It is extremely sad that being politically right has so much power over spiritual righteousness. The abbott of Jangtze is like a shoeshine boy, to me, it is severe degeneration.
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Thanks TK for sharing with us on the latest inside news of Dalai Lama in Gaden. I had wondered how things went. It's good that there weren't any mishaps or violence.
Could it be that he expelled his Guru for the sake of the many monks in the monastery, so that no "problems" are inflicted? I find it hard to believe that it was an easy task to do,... to expel his own Guru! I believe that in his mind, he did not expel his Guru...
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Wow, interesting news. HHDL approves of expelling the teachers of Dharma throught an acceptance of silence.
Anti-shugden Teachers teach pro-shugden followers... amazing!
An environment of suspicion and intrigue, that even the students would give up their teachers, ultimate results no attainement. With so many Lamas/tulkus that have the practice, or continue the practice, it would be a sad day that all were expelled. I would say all of Gaden would be out, as these lineage lamas pabongka, trijang, ling, zong have taught many many of todays teachers... perhaps thats why it only stopped at the ex.abbot huh!?
Good to note that nothing happened to Shar Gaden during HHDL stay nearby.
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So many illustrious lamas and tulkus seems to be living away from their main monasteries of many lifetimes. New monasteries are being built all over the world. Now Ex Abbot who have served the sangha been expelled.
Could this be the beginning of the manifestation of a new kadampa lineage with Dorje Shugden?
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Ex-Abbots expelled and Lamas tied with Dorje Shugden practice will be targeted.
Monks have been expelled and that's how we have Shar Gaden and Serpom now.
As more high Lamas and Abbots are forced out, they will undoubtedly continue to practice wherever they are established or can establish.
Sounds like a beginning of a new tradition with Dorje Shugden...perhaps the resurection of the Guru Tree that DOES include Dorje Shugden, as it should have been all along.
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So many illustrious lamas and tulkus seems to be living away from their main monasteries of many lifetimes. New monasteries are being built all over the world. Now Ex Abbot who have served the sangha been expelled.
Could this be the beginning of the manifestation of a new kadampa lineage with Dorje Shugden?
That is an intriguing thought and I think the only logical development for Dorje Shugden practice as the Dalai Lama continue to suppress us, practitioners. I believe Serpom and Shar Gaden will be forefront in the development of this new Dorje Shugden lineage. However, it would be good if more Tulkus and brave Lamas like Jampa Rinpoche who would risk their reputation by passing down valuable teachings and lineages to these courageous monks. In the end, this split will only be temporary- the practice after all will become mainstream.
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So many illustrious lamas and tulkus seems to be living away from their main monasteries of many lifetimes. New monasteries are being built all over the world. Now Ex Abbot who have served the sangha been expelled.
Could this be the beginning of the manifestation of a new kadampa lineage with Dorje Shugden?
You know what Big Uncle says sounds interesting: it does sound like the Chinese cultural revolution! What happened because of that? Dharma got spread out into the world. As harsh as it sounds (and I was part of a Free Tibet protest, so please no "you don't think about the tibetan people's suffering" response), without the Chinese invasion dharma would have stayed and remained in Tibet. Due to the invasion it is now available even where I am, in Toronto.
With monks being expelled from the monasteries because they are pro-DS - DS will spread...far and wide. Like what DSfriend has written, DS monasteries are being built around the world!
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just curious - when Tsongkhapa set up the Gelugpa school - was there resistance to a new school or tradition of Buddhism?
Though i guess there was no controversy, unlike Dorje Shugden today.
With a belief in impermanence though, i do think that whatever is most conducive for Tsongkhapa's tradition to spread - whether by a new Dorje Shugden lineage or not - Dorje Shugden will create the causes for it to manifest...
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I think with anything new and anything that changes an existing "comfort zone" will be met with difficulty, obstacles (within or external) and resistance, to say the least.
If I recall correctly, before the establishment of the Yellow Hat tradition - monastic code of conduct was not uphold and as disciplined.
Lama Tsongkhapa created strict monastic discipline of celibacy and etc in the Gelug School of Buddhism to counter the "loose' moral values of ordained folks at that time.
So, I don't imagine it was all received with wide open arms - judging from how a normal person would view it as his or her freedom has been curbed or compromised.
If anyone has more to share, please do.
We can all learn so much here by sharing.
I am always grateful for all the learning I receive from this Forum and website.
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just curious - when Tsongkhapa set up the Gelugpa school - was there resistance to a new school or tradition of Buddhism?
Though i guess there was no controversy, unlike Dorje Shugden today.
With a belief in impermanence though, i do think that whatever is most conducive for Tsongkhapa's tradition to spread - whether by a new Dorje Shugden lineage or not - Dorje Shugden will create the causes for it to manifest...
Dear WisdomBeing,
I don't know if there were any resistance during the lifetime of Lama Tsongkhapa but there were resistance after his passing into Parinirvana. I think during Lama Tsongkhapa's time, his students and monasteries weren't officially a new tradition. It was his disciples that formulated his teachings into a new lineage.
Before the Fifth Dalai Lama was discovered and during the Panchen Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen's time (4th Panchen Lama), the Tsangpa kings seized power in Tibet. Unfortunately, they were patrons of the Karma Kagyu tradition and somehow, the king fell ill and he seemed to blame and bore a grudge against the Dalai Lama. Thereafter, he suppressed the fledgling Gelug institutions except Tashi Lhunpo because he still had some respect of Panchen Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen. This was a crucial moment because the Gelug monasteries were in danger.
The Fifth Dalai Lama was already recognised by the Panchen Lama but the Tsangpa king forbade his enthronement in Lhasa. Things turned around when the Mongols arrived on the scene and allied themselves with the Fifth Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama. In the end, the Mongols drove the Tsangpa king out of Lhasa and defeated them.
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Source : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6620 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6620)
Referring to an excerpt from "The Dangers of Mixing Religion and Politics"
One example of how the Fifth Dalai Lama regarded maintenance of his political power as more important than his duty as a Buddhist practitioner was his efforts to destroy the power of two important officials whom he considered to be rivals to his political authority. (These events are described below in Chapter 8.) When they took refuge in Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, the monastic seat of his own Spiritual Guide, the Fifth Dalai Lama raised an army to attack it. He dismissed his Spiritual Guide’s attempts at conciliation; and some years later, in an unprecedented act of public disrespect, the Fifth Dalai Lama did not even attend his Spiritual Guide’s funeral.
Now, dear forum posters, ...please refrain from going on a rampant and engage in lama bashing. The intention of this information is for us, with an open mind to consider logically and see it from different view points. If the 5th Dalai Lama was so wrong in his actions, then how could the 5th incarnate back to be the 6th and so forth till now.
No one is above the law of karma.
What happened during the time of the Fifth is quite similar to what's happening now, with the Ex Abbot being expelled, it's about the samaya with the Guru.
In Vajrayana, samaya with our Guru is pinnacle to bring about any results from our practice. What will happen to the Abbots, Ex Abbots, Dalai Lama who had that private meeting to discuss about the Ex Abbot from Gyume, and to expel him. I find it hard to believe that they engaged in schism. So many lamas are being targeted...most of all the Gelug high lamas are being put down as most are practitioners of Dorje Shugden.
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Source : [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6620[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6620[/url])
Referring to an excerpt from "The Dangers of Mixing Religion and Politics"
One example of how the Fifth Dalai Lama regarded maintenance of his political power as more important than his duty as a Buddhist practitioner was his efforts to destroy the power of two important officials whom he considered to be rivals to his political authority. (These events are described below in Chapter 8.) When they took refuge in Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, the monastic seat of his own Spiritual Guide, the Fifth Dalai Lama raised an army to attack it. He dismissed his Spiritual Guide’s attempts at conciliation; and some years later, in an unprecedented act of public disrespect, the Fifth Dalai Lama did not even attend his Spiritual Guide’s funeral.
Now, dear forum posters, ...please refrain from going on a rampant and engage in lama bashing. The intention of this information is for us, with an open mind to consider logically and see it from different view points. If the 5th Dalai Lama was so wrong in his actions, then how could the 5th incarnate back to be the 6th and so forth till now.
Perhapes He didnt reincarnate, I remember being told that there was a secret biography of Guntang rinpoche was it ? Whom claimed that only one Incarnation in the entire lineage of the Dalai lamas had been Avaloketishvara, and that some where manifestations of the 16 arhants and beyond that inauthentic.
Looking from a logical point of view would one consider raising an army and attacking monastrys infitting with Buddhist morale discipline ? Vinaya, refuge, Bodhisattva and Tantric Morale disciplines all have restraints against harming others do they not.
There may well be some Far-looking crazy wisdom that see's the end effects of immediate action...But they certainly do not make the person whom practise them look appealing as one who fulfills the requirements of a spiritual guide.
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just curious - when Tsongkhapa set up the Gelugpa school - was there resistance to a new school or tradition of Buddhism?
Though i guess there was no controversy, unlike Dorje Shugden today.
With a belief in impermanence though, i do think that whatever is most conducive for Tsongkhapa's tradition to spread - whether by a new Dorje Shugden lineage or not - Dorje Shugden will create the causes for it to manifest...
WisdomBeing,
You brought up a very interesting question - " was there resistance to a new school or tradition.."
As we know, Je Tsongkhapa took the three old Kadampa lineages by the Great Atisha, and combined them into one stream which later became the Gelug tradition. This lineage is held by the Ganden Tripas (throne holders) or spiritual heads, with the Dalai Lama holding a key role.
There has always been political conflicts between the four traditions for growth and power over Tibet. Sakya Pandita reunited Tibet. However, Altan Khan gave the title "Dalai" to a Gelugpa. Gushri Khan enthrones the 5th Dalai Lama as temporal ruler of Tibet. Gelugpa became the dominant lineage in Central Tibet. Monasteries of other traditions such as Phegyeling originally Kagyu were converted or annexed in the case of Jonang.
There were resistance towards the Gelug lineage, and it was via what seemed to be political means, championed by no other than the Dalai Lama as the head of TIbet to ensure growth.
Dalai Lama's incarnations seems to be so intermingled with politics...in this incarnation, he is still being accused of using politics, for imposing ridiculous ban.
However, the more I research and read about the works of the Dalai Lama, I find his works extraordinary and unconventional. Though it seems to come across as "worldy, in humane, manipulative" but it has somehow brought about much growth for Buddha Dharma.
Just look at where Tibetan Buddhism is today. What do you make out of all these?
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It is really sad and a sure sign of our degenerate times! Who would imagine disciples singling out their Gurus to be expelled from the monastery. It sounds almost like the cultural revolution of the China.
Very sad to read about this, but I still find it very hard to digest all these story/news, doesn't sound logic at all.
How am I supposed to relate "sign of degenerate times", "broken samaya", "create schism in the Sangha" etc etc to HH Dalai Lama? To many ordinary people who are very new to Buddhism, just like me, His Holiness almost equals to Tibetan Buddhism, He is a buddhist icon, He represents compassion, wisdom, peace...But what He has been doing now doesn't show all these qualities.
Sorry if I sound rude, but it just doesn't make sense at all to me. How can a living buddha who stresses so much on wisdom and compassion let such things happen? Not only that, He even "plays" an important role behind the whole drama. I think any person with average IQ would know that this could only bring harm, not only to his own reputation and Tibetan Buddhism, but the whole Tibetan community as well.
What is His real purpose? I just can't believe that He is actually threatened by the so called "Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Dalai Lama" things.
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It is really sad and a sure sign of our degenerate times! Who would imagine disciples singling out their Gurus to be expelled from the monastery. It sounds almost like the cultural revolution of the China.
Very sad to read about this, but I still find it very hard to digest all these story/news, doesn't sound logic at all.
How am I supposed to relate "sign of degenerate times", "broken samaya", "create schism in the Sangha" etc etc to HH Dalai Lama? To many ordinary people who are very new to Buddhism, just like me, His Holiness almost equals to Tibetan Buddhism, He is a buddhist icon, He represents compassion, wisdom, peace...But what He has been doing now doesn't show all these qualities.
Sorry if I sound rude, but it just doesn't make sense at all to me. How can a living buddha who stresses so much on wisdom and compassion let such things happen? Not only that, He even "plays" an important role behind the whole drama. I think any person with average IQ would know that this could only bring harm, not only to his own reputation and Tibetan Buddhism, but the whole Tibetan community as well.
What is His real purpose? I just can't believe that He is actually threatened by the so called "Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Dalai Lama" things.
Dear Daka
Welcome to Dorjeshugden.com.
Just like you, I was devastated and felt confused the more I learn about everything else which surrounds Tibetan Buddhism.
It wasn't until I stumbled on this website that I started to gather more information to fuel a new perspective... I find this website and forum to be an oasis and appreciates very much that the information provided is non-biased.
There is a strong house rule also which disallow lama bashing. There's much respect towards each other and also all the lamas.
Do take sometime to read through this forum.
My wish is that in time, you will make your own views, views which are peaceful, empowering you on your spiritual journey, and see that all the lineage masters are one in bringing liberation to us.
best wishes
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It is such a shame that high lamas are being dispelled by students. Where is the practice of Guru Devotion? What happened to samaya? Why didn't HH Dalai Lama said or take any actions? Is it destined and planned this way for a new practice to come about?
With more and more pro-ds being expelled out of monasteries, they will definitely need a place to practice.For that, we can now see that more and more DS monasteries are being built to cater to influx of DS practictioners.
May this be the beginning of a new lineage - DS lineage!
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Strangely in a twist of events, the Dalai Lama was not happy this Gyurme Kensur Rinpoche was expelled from Gaden Jangtze Monastery due to his suspected affiliations with Shugden. The abbot of Gaden Jangtze expelled him to please the Dalai Lama.
Mana
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If the Dalai Lama was not happy with the ex-Abbot being expelled, why didn’t he stop it? I find this rather contradictory. If the Dalai Lama had stopped the expulsion, then it would have sent a strong signal to the Tibetan community that just because the Dalai Lama made a comment like that, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he is accusing anyone or hinting at anything. This would stop the unhealthy atmosphere of paranoia and sycophancy which is currently prevalent in the Tibetan monastic institutions. All it takes is for the Dalai Lama to speak up.
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The abbot of Jangtze was so frightened and eager to please the Dalai Lama in any way he can he expelled Gyume Kensur on that basis alone. Dalai Lama could have stopped the expulsion easily, but he didn't. A noteworthy point is the Gyume Kensur is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze. Disciples have to expel Gurus these days in such political uncertainty. Gyume Kensur continues to reside in France.
TK
Disciples expelling Gurus..........What an era we are living in!!! Perhaps the abbot of Jangtse would like to re-write the "50 stanzes of Guru Devotion" ???
It is extremely sad that being politically right has so much power over spiritual righteousness. The abbott of Jangtze is like a shoeshine boy, to me, it is severe degeneration.
I was just thinking about that.
I mean Guru Devotion is the very cornerstone of proper practice and that is a well known fact every where we look.
Milarepa advised us to try and see the Guru in his actual dharmakaya aspect. Je Tsongkhapa himself tells us in no uncertain terms that the door to great bliss and higher attainments is through the cultivation of Guru Devotion.
Even Kyabje Lama Zopa advocates guru devotion:
"...If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that’s totally incorrect; that’s opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion..."
I cannot help but notice that the monks and Lamas who are being persecuted for not betraying DS, are the ones actually practicing Guru Devotion and these are high Lamas well recognized for their attainments. Whereas the anti Shugden-ites seem to have abandoned the very foundation of all they have learned. If you remove devotion to your Guru, you remove the very foundation of your knowledge and attainments. You are in fact saying: "everything I have learned have been taught by someone that I do not trust. Doesn't that make your attainments and realizations also untrustworthy?
It appears to me that not only have these anti DS people made an issue out of the practice of a great Dharma Protector, they are also making an issue out of Guru Devotion. Nothing is sacred to them any longer.
Here is an example of one of them Lama Zopa inserting his own caveat into the 50 Verses Of Guru Devotion that has been loyally adhered without any attempts to tamper with it, until now.
"I want to specify one extra point, on the basis of the usual examination [ of the Guru] that is explained in the teachings. I want to add that, if you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, you should examine to make sure that that teacher is not someone who is against His Holiness Dalai Lama with respect to the practice of what’s called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that that person does not do the practice. These days, that’s an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in future..." [written in April 2001, ironically entitled Guru Devotion and His Holiness The Dalai Lama]
If DS is an evil spirit, how come all the wrong doings, all the betrayals, all the breaking of sworn oaths, all the inflicting of pain and sufferings, all the violence have been perpetrated by the anti DS people.
The more I look at it, one does not need to go into very deep analysis of Dorje Shugden to see the fruits of this practice. Those who practice Dorje Shugden also practice the upholding of Lama Tsongkhapa's Dharma (and that is upholding the dharma of Chenrezig; Manjushri and Vajrapani). Those who practice Dor je Shugden FOR SURE practice Guru Devotion as delivered by the Fifty Verses Of Guru Devotion, a teaching given by Vajradhara himself and summarized by Ashvagosha.
In his Uttaratantra, Maitreya Buddha said one can only realize Emptiness when one has fervert regard and gret respect for the Guru.
The good thing I see in this DS ban is that the darker the shadows that fall on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, the brighter Dorje Shugden shines, simply by maintaining the Buddha's dharma.
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How could a disciple expel his guru from a monastery as in the case of Gyume Kensur who is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze? His Holiness Dalai Lama (HHDL) could have prevented the expulsion of Gyume Kensur but he hasn’t.
HHDL’s statement of tulkus and lamas who played two faces is also very disturbing. How could all these tulkus and lamas be wrong to continue their practices in secret? How could these tulkus and lamas abandon the sacred DS practices which they had received from their gurus?
The ban had prevented the freedom to practise DS openly without any fear for so long. Nothing seems to indicate the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration) or HHDL would lift the ban. In fact the ban gives rise to further sufferings as in this case of abbots being dispelled.
Perhaps the solution to all these restrictions is to form new schools, lineages or monasteries of DS practitioners. It is high time all DS practitioners – tulkus, lamas, lineage holders, lay and ordained practitioners - stay united and come out in the open bravely and create the change. We need to initiate this change quickly and stop the confusion and sufferings that have arisen since the ban.
The only opponents are the ignorant anti-shugdenites, CTA and HHDL which is small compared to the many DS practitioners out there in the World today. The ban has no basis to sustain its continuity. Sooner or later the ban will lose its power as the DS practice is based on an authentic source, lineage, valid and logical reasoning. The truth will always prevail.
Many political parties in the World today had collapsed due to their inabilities to have the welfare of their people in mind. If CTA continues to ban and suppress DS practice which brings no harm but only benefits to the Tibetan people, sooner or later CTA will collapse under its own doing.
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Upon reading the story, I am confused about two things. Believing that HHDL is an enlightened beings, why would he did not say anything when a student expelled his guru from the monastery. It violated to my knowledge:
- the very principle of guru devotion as stated in the 50 verses of Guru Devotion
- Bodhisattva vows.
Understood that the more DS practice is surpressed, the more it shines forth. But why this has to be done through the means of encouraging a disciple expelling his own Guru?
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Since the beginning of the ban, the Dalai Lama has continuously exhibited seemingly self sabotage:
1. his irrational condemnation of Dorje Shugden without explanation of its logic.
2. instituting the ban and forcing monks to stop a practice given by their teachers.
3. turning a blind eye to the ostracisation of DS practitioners – lay and Sangha – throughout the Tibetan refugee community.
4. Saying his Teachers are wrong. This contradicts the very core of Tibetan Buddhism.
5. Saying HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is evil, shortens the Dalai Lama’s life and prevents the independence of Tibet, why can Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche do the practice?
6. Forcing monks to swear in at the monasteries when swearing in is not permitted.
7. Forcing monks to vote in the red/yellow stick referendum which was not democratic at all.
8. Prohibiting Dorje Shugden practitioners from attending his teachings although people from other religions and even Satanic worshippers are allowed to attend. Only Dorje Shugden practitioners are not.
All this erratic and contradictory behaviour serves the purpose of letting people who are intelligent think a bit deeper. If the Dalai Lama IS Avalokiteshvara, why is he doing all this? There must be a certain agenda.
Whether we agree with the agenda hypothesis or not, it does not harm to not think badly about the Dalai Lama and highlight these inconsistencies consistently to others so they can consider other possibilities about Dorje Shugden also.
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To me, the ban did nothing more than expose the stupidity and backwaterness of the Tibetan people. The reasonings given on HHDL's website regarding the ban is very, very weak, inconsistent and warped, so to speak. He claims that the 5th Dalai Lama claims that Dorje Shugden is evil but he completely skipped the part where the 5th Dalai lama wrote prayers and even made a statue to Dorje Shugden. Also quoted were weak and unverifiable accounts of Dorje Shugden being "evil". That seems to be the prevalent them in Tibetan history.
It is horrifying to see students expelling their teachers from the monastery, all because of wanting to tow in line to be politically correct. Again, this issue isnt really about Dharma practice but rather being politically aligned to the Dalai Lama. HHDL practices teachings from other lineages, which Dorje Shugden would have warned him against which is probably why he banned Dorje Shugden in the first place. It seems that there are many things that the current incarnation of HHDL is doing that is not standard of Gelugpa practice...but the result of the ban is this much suffering and even expulsion of such great masters from monasteries.....the effects of the negative karma must be huge and HHDL has said that he will absorb them all.
I am hoping that this is all temporary, and that it really has a higher purpose.
But then again, we have Shar Ganden and Serpom now!! And they will be bigger and much more efficient compared to the monasteries who cut off their lineage Gurus, lineage practice, and expunge their senior practitioners just to be politically correct. Their growth will be slowed down as a result of their actions.
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To me, the ban did nothing more than expose the stupidity and backwaterness of the Tibetan people. The reasonings given on HHDL's website regarding the ban is very, very weak, inconsistent and warped, so to speak.
Ensapa, please be careful of the words that you use. While many may agree with you, this forum is not a place to launch any personal attacks on groups of people, no matter what we may think of them personally.
However, I do understand what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, although the Tibetans are so often praised for their religion - and of course, there is much to praise - religion has taken over and become one with secular matters, making it very difficult for the current governments and people to function on a truly practical, secular level. This debate about the secular / religious has been longstanding for nations throughout the world. Many learnt to separate the two many centuries ago. Unfortunately, as such an isolated country, the Tibetans didn't need to do this until they were literally forced out of their country. Now, they are suffering the after-effects of integrating religion into secular matters too strongly.
This is true not just in the case of this ban, but in many aspects across the people and community. Look at education, for example. So many tibetan youths these days do not have the same educational or career opportunities as their peers in other more developed countries. As a country and people who have focused so much and so solely on religion, they have neglected other much needed areas, such as education. A clear example: apart from religious figures, have we heard of any famous Tibetans around the world? Are they known for their contributions in arts, sciences, politics etc? Hardly. It is not their fault. It's that the government and leaders do not provide opportunities for their young people do climb further. It is a well known fact that many young Tibetans do very little - they finish school and then do little other than loaf about, drinking and just partying their days away. You only need to go to Tibetan settlements like Manjukatilnath in Delhi or even McCleod Ganj in Dharamsala to see that this is sadly true.
The government needs to be much clearer in separating church from state, and focusing on providing better opportunities and welfare for their people. Only then will people start to look at Tibetans and perhaps eventually even support them in whatever they are doing - be it their religious practices or even their fight for independence. For right now, why would anyone listen to them and their appeals? Sadly, they have no results to show for whatever they are fighting for. I mean no disrespect. This is what I observe as an outsider and a non-Tibetan. There needs to be much clearer distinctions between their religious policies and other secular affairs.
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Ensapa, please be careful of the words that you use. While many may agree with you, this forum is not a place to launch any personal attacks on groups of people, no matter what we may think of them personally.
However, I do understand what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, although the Tibetans are so often praised for their religion - and of course, there is much to praise - religion has taken over and become one with secular matters, making it very difficult for the current governments and people to function on a truly practical, secular level. This debate about the secular / religious has been longstanding for nations throughout the world. Many learnt to separate the two many centuries ago. Unfortunately, as such an isolated country, the Tibetans didn't need to do this until they were literally forced out of their country. Now, they are suffering the after-effects of integrating religion into secular matters too strongly.
This is true not just in the case of this ban, but in many aspects across the people and community. Look at education, for example. So many tibetan youths these days do not have the same educational or career opportunities as their peers in other more developed countries. As a country and people who have focused so much and so solely on religion, they have neglected other much needed areas, such as education. A clear example: apart from religious figures, have we heard of any famous Tibetans around the world? Are they known for their contributions in arts, sciences, politics etc? Hardly. It is not their fault. It's that the government and leaders do not provide opportunities for their young people do climb further. It is a well known fact that many young Tibetans do very little - they finish school and then do little other than loaf about, drinking and just partying their days away. You only need to go to Tibetan settlements like Manjukatilnath in Delhi or even McCleod Ganj in Dharamsala to see that this is sadly true.
The government needs to be much clearer in separating church from state, and focusing on providing better opportunities and welfare for their people. Only then will people start to look at Tibetans and perhaps eventually even support them in whatever they are doing - be it their religious practices or even their fight for independence. For right now, why would anyone listen to them and their appeals? Sadly, they have no results to show for whatever they are fighting for. I mean no disrespect. This is what I observe as an outsider and a non-Tibetan. There needs to be much clearer distinctions between their religious policies and other secular affairs.
Hi Beggar, I dont think reiterating what the Tibetans actually do admit and think about themselves as launching a personal attack haha. Most tibetans themselves believe that their ancestors came from the copulation between the monkey which was Avalokiteshvara's emanation and also a female rock ogress, and thus possess the kindess and soft heartedness of Avalokiteshvara and the stubbornness and ferocity of the orgress, and they are proud of that. I am not sure how is it still now but from what I heard the last time, they are.
If CTA is successful, then they would be the world's first buddhist government to ever rule and govern a country and set a good example to other countries that Buddhist principles do work and they are realistic. That would be fantastic for the growth of the Dharma. From how I see it, there is no need for the separation of religion and government if the government follows Buddhist principles, like for example operating on the law of karma and providing properly for the needs of the people as expected of governments, while picking up what is good from other governments. Then CTA can change to Shambala on earth. That is one thing that I wish I would see. HHDL said just not to practice, not to go on a witchhunt.....
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It is indeed very sad to hear what Abbot did to his Guru Gyume Kensur Rinpoche just to please HH Dalai Lama because of "political correctness", and even more sad HH Dalai Lama didn't stop it.
Indeed this whole ban of Dorje Shugden has created a lot of doubts in people's mind especially on the subject of guru devotion. If someone who is highly attained as HH Dalai can say that his guru is wrong for practicing Dorje Shugden, then does it mean my Guru can be wrong too? How can we know?
But at least, there is no "bad" things happen to Shar Gaden during HH Dalai Lama's visit..
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revisiting this post, it is amazing how things have improved from what was discussed earlier. There is lesser protest, lesser news on the ban.. and not as bad as the situation mentioned in the beginning of the post. Yes, the swearing in, the segregation, the unfairness in treating Dorje Shugden practitioners still stand. But it is not as violent as it sounded before... In Fact, if you read through the back dated posts, and comparing the situation now... Things are improving.
If within a one year, things can mellow down quite a bit, it is a clear bright light at the end of the tunnel. Which means the ban can be lifted sooner. But we have to do our part too. It is not just for our own individual practice but to preserve dharma as a whole in fact it isn't just for Gelug. Everything happens for a reason, if people can only see that it is not just about a spirit going against His Holiness The Dalai Lama but to spread dharma as a whole.
I am proud to be a Gelug, proud of the protector, proud to be a part to contribute in spreading the dharma even though now it might seemed impossible while the ban is still on. But just one year ago, the practitioners were angry, dismay, disappointed, sad etc... But look how the movement has spread in to different parts of the world like China, Singapore etc etc.
I think we should push to do our part in helping to lift the ban because we can not let the Lamas, the monks, our fellow practitioners' sacrifices pour down in drain.
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Yes Barzin it is totally amazing how everything is unfolding. Now is the time we work even harder to educate educate, spread spread the benefits of Dorje Shugden to as many as possible. Lets not waste time with protest and demonstration... it is better we focus our energy on creating more and more Dorje Shugden temples, centres, shrines, websites, fb, tweet whatever to make his presence known and felt.
I feel that His Holiness toning down everything now and going on world tour talking about equality in religion is a great way for us to rid on the subject since we're talking about equality ;)
Shugden practitioners are also getting stronger, Shar Gaden and Serpom and all these Shugden monasteries that had to start from scratch have grown so rapidly. They prove those anti-shugdens wrong! So if we're worshipping some evil demon... shouldn't the Dharma protectors rain thunder on these monasteries already. Obviously not. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!!!
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If within a one year, things can mellow down quite a bit, it is a clear bright light at the end of the tunnel. Which means the ban can be lifted sooner. But we have to do our part too. It is not just for our own individual practice but to preserve dharma as a whole in fact it isn't just for Gelug. Everything happens for a reason, if people can only see that it is not just about a spirit going against His Holiness The Dalai Lama but to spread dharma as a whole.
One year down the road, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is still strong and healthy, travelling the world, and Shugden practitioners are still around in Tibet and around the wrld. I don't see that practice of Shugden harms the health of the Dalai Lama. So for that, there's a new "reason" - CTA claimed that China is gathering intelligence on the Dalai Lama's health and secretly trying to procure his blood, hair and urine samples. CTA also claimed that Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society - founded in 1996 and allegedly responsible for killing three monks close to the Dalai Lama - of conspiring to kill the leader.
As for harming the cause of Tibet, the recent resignation of 2 envoys representation His Holiness said it all - 9 rounds of talks with Chinese officials from 2002 to 2010 and Beijing is showing “no willingness’’ for dialogue. I am sure Shugden practitioners didn't cause that to happen? Even the officials themselves are getting tired of fighting for the cause of Tibet.
I wonder what's the next accusation or plan to further humiliate Shugden practitioners?
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One year down the road, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is still strong and healthy, travelling the world, and Shugden practitioners are still around in Tibet and around the wrld. I don't see that practice of Shugden harms the health of the Dalai Lama. So for that, there's a new "reason" - CTA claimed that China is gathering intelligence on the Dalai Lama's health and secretly trying to procure his blood, hair and urine samples. CTA also claimed that Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society - founded in 1996 and allegedly responsible for killing three monks close to the Dalai Lama - of conspiring to kill the leader.
As for harming the cause of Tibet, the recent resignation of 2 envoys representation His Holiness said it all - 9 rounds of talks with Chinese officials from 2002 to 2010 and Beijing is showing “no willingness’’ for dialogue. I am sure Shugden practitioners didn't cause that to happen? Even the officials themselves are getting tired of fighting for the cause of Tibet.
I wonder what's the next accusation or plan to further humiliate Shugden practitioners?
There is absolutely no or little reason for CTA to talk about Dorje Shugden practitioners, so they resort to illogical accusations and also all kinds of theories that can be very hard to believe if you are educated. CTA is getting very desperate to justify to themselves that the ban is good because they know and they believe, deep down inside of them, that the ban is wrong but they still need to justify and believe that the ban is right because of His Holiness. There will be all kinds of further and more hilarious accusations that will happen in the near future against Dorje Shugden practitioners, but nothing will make us give up the sacred practices that has been handed down to us by our Gurus, not even one single practice and nothing can make us waiver in our Dharma practices.
In fact, these kind of situations are ideal for the higher practitioners as they can use this situation to train their compassion, forgiveness, patience and determination in overcoming this and still continue to do Dharma practice for the sake of all sentient beings. This is a perfect situation for Dorje Shugden practitioners to practice lojong and to gain attainments from it by being unwavering in our own practice while not allowing others to disturb our minds or practice.
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To me it sounded like some people has been waiting for a chance to act on someone in this case of expulsion. Its just a feeling i got after i read TK posting. Nobody stop/pause the expulsion for reconsideration at all...Expulsion is very serious and damaging to the disciplinary image of the individual. And moreover, its disciple expelling Guru. Why cannot the anti-shugdens leave people who wishes to do this practice alone?
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It is such a shame to read that the CTA is expelling holy senior Lamas without even proper proof! Instead of thinking expelling their own High Lamas, Monks and people and creating such a big deal about Dorje Shugden practice when all other practices are "okay" even satanic... they should just request their own people in Tibet to just stop protesting for a "FREE TIBET" and burning themselves silly.
Instead unite with Shugdenpas so that they can have a better bigger voice in helping their own people in Tibet to get autonomy... if that is truly what CTA wants. Do they???
The more Shugden practitioners and High Lamas they expel, excommunicate, the lesser the weaker they become, the lesser the credibility and respect they will get from everyone who can logically look at this situation.
If we can see right through them, imagine the Chinese Govt who is probably laughing at the CTAs situation and rejoicing the fact in their own house it is "messy" and there is a "divorce" between them 'SIGH'. Anyways China is happily accepting Shugden practice just cause CTA is rejecting it ;)
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This is so sad, can you imagine being thrown away from home just because you have a different religious view? If this is not discrimination, then what is this? Everyone should be treated with equality, everyone should be given the freedom of religious, its one of the most basic human rights.