dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Atishas cook on February 12, 2010, 02:47:40 PM
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ok everybody -
i've read, with some suspicion, frankly, here and in many other forums online, many posts recently from a few individuals (or one individual posing as many) revisiting beggar's old argument that the Dalai Lama is, in fact and contrary to appearances, an omniscient Buddha working in collaboration with Dorje Shugden to spread the holy Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa throughout the world.
if this idea is sincerely put forward then i appreciate the good heart that motivates it. however, many of those propounding this view appear to be incapable of accepting the repeated assurances of the DL's critics here that our criticism is not tantamount to hatred for him. this makes it harder for me to believe that these proponents are actually sincere...
another view they are putting forward is that, while it is good to defend the holy lineage of reliance upon our Protector, the WSS has gone too far in organizing protests, and in publishing A Great Deception, and that the WSS' actions are harmful. they say that we should "practise lojong" and remain quiet, thereby "setting a good example" of sincere Dharma practitioners. again, i can't help but feel that this is a conveniently beneficial teaching with respect to the aims and intentions of the DL and TGIE...
so i call you out. your view is wrong. when a mad dictator tries to destroy a religion, and all attenpts at negotiation, discussion and debate have failed - well, then the time for sitting quietly has passed. whether or not the Dalai Lama is in fact a Buddha is entirely irrelevant. conventionally, his actions are those of a deluded person, a mad dictator. when a Buddha manifests as a deluded being engaged in deluded actions, the correct - the only - response is to try to stop those deluded actions and protect the deluded being and others from its harmful effects. to say "i will not help those who suffer in case it is all manifested by Buddha as part of his unseen plan to benefit all beings" is patently ridiculous.
please stop spreading your, apparently, good-hearted but finally extremely foolish and harmful wrong view. if you as an individual do not understand the wrathful actions of the WSS and others, you are free to abstain from involving yourself. but don't denounce or try to stop them, please; this only plays into the DL and TGIE's hands by trying to create division amongst his critics. it is not helpful.
Now is the time to distinguish the truth and falsity of actions and effects...
with love, believe it or not,
Atisha's cook
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Dear Atisha's cook,
Just because several people share the same viewpoint, doesn't mean that we are the same person. Please bear that in mind. By the way, there are 260,000 people who come into this website and not all of them are just one person!
Love,
Big Uncle
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Some doubt whether we know the Dalai Lama's intention, since we cannot know his mind. However, our Gurus have told us what the Dalai Lama's intention is, and we believe them because we believe our Gurus are enlightened. Of course, your Guru may have told you something differently than my Guru, and each of our Gurus has asked us to take different courses of action. The mistake is to then impose my Guru's or your Guru's views and instructions onto another Guru's disciple. Please, follow your own Guru's example, but don't assume this applies to other Gurus' disciples.
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Every disciple follows their guru's advice/views and hence applicable to themselves and perhaps not another disciple's.
But this is a forum and hence we are here to discuss, think, and hopefully the forum helps us to elevate our personal practice by sharing openly. So if we are not to share because we have our own views and it might not apply to another, we would not need a forum.
So I appreciate the many varied views of some I do not agree with at all. But that does not mean, it is wrong. Nor does it mean they have no right to express. Everyone may express. I learn alot quite frankly.
Thanks,
TK
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yes, well... i'm all for discussion and freedom of expression. i'm just having difficulty accepting the sincerity of all these new contributors. it would appear that they've all decided to start propounding this frankly divisive view at the same time and in several different places online, which certainly looks like either sockpuppetry or a coordinated effort with a particular agenda: to find the faultline within the community of Dorje Shugden practioners opposing the Dalai Lama's ban, which is some practitioners' natural discomfort about engaging so publicly in wrathful speech towards such a well-known "Buddhist" icon. it's difficult for me not to conclude that this is aimed at weakening and ultimately silencing his opponents.
for example, an alert appeared last week in my inbox about new comments on a post in quite another forum - an Apple computers blog i happen to subscribe to - on which i commented months ago re. the DL (it was a post about the Chinese government censoring an iPhone app containg DL quotes) by several of the same new contributors as have been posting here. the topic was dead months ago, yet several new comments appeared on the same day from these folk - all trying to undo the damage i'd done in my comment to "His Holiness'" reputation.
so forgive me if I suspect their motives. but whether they are simply naive or do in fact have a divisive ulterior motive, the results of their efforts are potentially weakening to our aim of defending our lineage for future generations.
if they're really naive, then i hope to make them think more clearly. if they're disingenuous and not what they seem - not Dorje Shugden practitioners at all but Dalai Lama sympathisers - then i hope to show them up.
one of them can't even bring him/herself to spell "Shugden" correctly, let alone write "Gyalchen Dorje Shugden".
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I hear you Atisha´s cook, I hear you.
Obviously you are not the only one having the same doubts, many people find these people´s interventions divisive and suspicious. It´s true that here we were having discrepancies but we conducted ourselves as one family. Some of these people came here not only with arrogance but with sarcasm and obvious contempt. Threatening us with talking with their friend monks about how laughable our posts are!
One thing is clear: the Noobs came several together --I wonder, are they really so many, with fresh sweet arrivals and new voices?-- and they have the same external agenda. I´m not omniscient, I don´t know which their secret agenda is.
TK, we are all for freedom of expression. The fact to allow people to express themselves in the Forum does not mean that they are right. They have the right to express themselves, but that does not give them a certificate of correctness in their views.
Anyway, we should at least thank them for the entertainment. Because we are still wondering, are we not? what´s up with the Noobs?
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TK, we are all for freedom of expression. The fact to allow people to express themselves in the Forum does not mean that they are right. They have the right to express themselves, but that does not give them a certificate of correctness in their views.
Dear A Friend,
I totally agree with you. Just because they, you and me have the freedom to express as we like on the forum does not give any of them, you and myself the 'certificate' of correctness.
So should we keep on expressing or stop. I vote keep on doing it.
Thank you and everyone else that takes the time to express,
Tk
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haha i had no idea i disturbed all of you so badly and when did i threaten you guys? how can that be perceived as a threat when all i said that the way some of the posts would make my monk friends laugh because they know whats really going on? when have Dharma practitioners become so paranoid and unsettling? is this the result of propitiating Shudgen? Please let me know it is not.
Just because I spell Shudgen in this way dosent mean that 'i cant spell it correctly' it just happens to be a different dialect. And i'm more comfortable with that one.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe perhaps an extremely realized being has asked his disciples to perhaps, help you see the bigger picture which is why they come in here to not only help you realize but make this forum more active than it could be? Because he sees the big picture?
Especially because we are Shudgen practitioners we should not be BITTER or show our bitterness towards DL. What kind of example is that? Shudgen himself has ask his followers to respect DL in trances. Yet why do some people explicitly transgress this simple instruction?
i'm not telling anyone what to do but just a few points that i'm putting here for everyone to think about.
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Dear all,
I think this is getting ridiculous. What's wrong with the 'Noobs' expressing what we believe and feel? Who gave the authority of this forum to a few 'oldies' to decide what can be said in this forum or not? I am not trying to be rude but really... You guys put our opinions down so much that it makes me wonder why are you guys so insecure? I don't see many of the 'Noobs' put the 'oldies' down... So, it would be nice to more constructive threads instead.
P/s : What does it matter to you guys if I live in Malaysia or Sg? It is so strange to see that being brought up.
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Lhakpa,
I like what you said,"To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect." When things go wrong in samsara we shouldn't be surprised as that is it's nature, it is when things go right, then we should be surprised.
The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.
There will come a time in the future that we can practice Dorje Shugden without ostracization or ill will from others. There will come a time when Dorje Shugden's practice spreads without much opposition from within. There will come a time when all the bans/restrictions from DL/Tibetan Govt will fade and disappear. Until then, participating in this forum to express my faith in Dorje Shugden is one of the ways I can bring the 'golden age' to usher in faster. And I will express a moderate view freely always and dedicate it towards a resolution of the real problems otherwise why participate in a forum.
TK
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The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.
I really like what TK said as quoted. From our actions, are we adding on more to the storm when really, what will keep us safe is our thoughts, realizations, understanding. So often, in pursue for "rights", we fall into the trappings of our own egos where we start to take sides and fight for the "cause" when perhaps, this may not be what we need to do. I find to have this topic in this forum "..why can't we all just get along" is such a reflection of what goes out in this samsaric world.
What TK presented that ban/DL/TGIE will fade and disappear. This resonates well with me. Thank you TK for putting your thoughts so clearly. We will all be able to practice openly and freely one day. Isn't right now a perfect time to start practicing? Dorje Shugden NEVER slanders nor puts down DL. Would you want to take refuge in Dorje Shugden if he did. Can you imagine an Oracle taking trance and DS criticizes and plots how to get back at DL like what is said in this forum and many other anti-Dalia sites? I wouldn't! Thus, I am going to do my darn best to not act in contrary.
And yes, I am new to this forum and I do not have the power of emanation to simultaneously create all these personalities some of you think I am able to. I wish I could!!
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Lhakpa,
I like what you said,"To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect." When things go wrong in samsara we shouldn't be surprised as that is it's nature, it is when things go right, then we should be surprised.
The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.
There will come a time in the future that we can practice Dorje Shugden without ostracization or ill will from others. There will come a time when Dorje Shugden's practice spreads without much opposition from within. There will come a time when all the bans/restrictions from DL/Tibetan Govt will fade and disappear. Until then, participating in this forum to express my faith in Dorje Shugden is one of the ways I can bring the 'golden age' to usher in faster. And I will express a moderate view freely always and dedicate it towards a resolution of the real problems otherwise why participate in a forum.
TK
Yes thank you TK for so sincerely sharing your thoughts. I do believe there will be a time when the ban fades and disappears, much like the ban on Tibetan travel to Taiwan faded and disappeared. Impermanence can be a bitch, but it can also be great in that nothing bad is ever permanent. Thus follows what a wise woman (my mother actually) once told me which is when things are going badly, smile and be happy because all is not as it seems. For one, there are good times to look forward to after the bad times and two, in relation to Dorje Shugden, it may be an exercise of purification for us. A test to create, as TK posted earlier, strongholds of Dorje Shugden practice around the world.
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haha i had no idea i disturbed all of you so badly and when did i threaten you guys? how can that be perceived as a threat when all i said that the way some of the posts would make my monk friends laugh because they know whats really going on? when have Dharma practitioners become so paranoid and unsettling? is this the result of propitiating Shudgen? Please let me know it is not.
It's confusing.....
so there's more of that nasty speech energy I mentioned before, and yet....
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe perhaps an extremely realized being has asked his disciples to perhaps, help you see the bigger picture which is why they come in here to not only help you realize but make this forum more active than it could be? Because he sees the big picture?
..it seems he is here to help us on the advice of his highly realized master! In answer to the question, no, it hadn't occurred to me that someone who sees that big picture had sent the noobs here on a rescue mission.
Anyway, it's hard to be upset when people try to help you, however misguided their attempts. I, however, am more easily helped when not being bored by the endless repeating of views I have already rejected, so a bit of advice for all you helpers....maybe try a new tack. Like pretending to go along with me to win me over, and then helping me gradually. This often works with me.
Especially because we are Shudgen practitioners we should not be BITTER or show our bitterness towards DL. What kind of example is that? Shudgen himself has ask his followers to respect DL in trances. Yet why do some people explicitly transgress this simple instruction?
And there it is again, the view that if we speak out against obvious political mischief, we are bitter. Bit of a slow learner, this one....or maybe he has no intention to learn anything here at all, just comes to spam.... hard to tell..hmmmm...
ps we follow and take our instruction from our Spiritual Guides here, sir, not oracles, however reliable.
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once again, to those pushing the "just say nothing and wait for it to pass" agenda: regardless of your identities, loyalties and motives, it is my view, in common with many, many others, that now is not the time for such inaction. we believe that if we don't, now, denounce the DL and we allow him to carry on unopposed then there will very soon not be any Dorje Shugden lineage left at all to practise. this is the DL's avowed aim.
if your Lamas counsel you to keep quiet - fine. do that. but your attempts to "help" we who speak out to make the same choice and keep silent will not work. give it up.
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I have no problem with others, including myself to express ourselves, that which is on our lips to share with others, is healing and makes things a little more certain. Bizarre that some of the kindest people in the world are Buddhist, now with hair on end, due to some electrical charge that has upset the balance.
Whether this is all a dream, which it is, then time will tell if the Dalia is on a Cosmic Quest or just Fallen, as anyone else here on earth seems capable of doing in the Kaliayuga cycle.
I have seen this forum as a space for healing to put to words the horrors that crashed my universe, to rebuild something that survived into something less fearful and more at peace.
I believe the Protector creates that magical space that allows for any and all of us to find the center to meditate in the most perfect environment possible.
Something unites us all to consider all we say and find the truth out for ourselves as best we are able.
Building walls is more difficult than tearing them down. I like the view without any walls and the one that causes me to see that in fact we all float as bubbles together on a brillant and bright infinite sea of joy and bliss.
To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect.
I like what you say Lhakpa Gyaltshen about believe the Protector creates that magical space that allows for any and all of us to find the center to meditate in the most perfect environment possible. What is perfect for me may not be for you but it is still perfect :) It's a fresher perspective and one that is a lot more Dharmic. It gives peace and comforts to shattered hearts in the maze of this manifestations of much contradictions. And Yes something is definitely uniting us all to find the truth out for ourselves as best we are able. And this forum like you say is "a space for healing" and "to rebuild something that survived into something less fearful and more at peace".
But somehow this post has voiced out a different agenda, but proclaims a "pure" motivation of "protecting Dorje Shugden's lineage from dying". Do we honestly have so little confident in our protector and all the high Lamas, our Gurus, ourselves that are practicing it? I mean c'mon what's happening here? It's like we've decided to express our love for Dorje Shugden by putting each other down to see who's view is right or wrong. Wow! I'm sure DS will be real happy listening to all this insecurities and our Gurus cheering us on. So if we're puppets to try to take the "middle path" then likewise I can say you are also puppets when you follow your Guru's advice and spam all over the media on how bad DL is, but I will not say that cos by saying that I am slapping not just you, but also your Guru, and indirectly Dorje Shugden b'cos he practice DS as well isn't it?! Instead why don't we share enlightening info like TK did or discuss how each of us will spread Dorje Shugden teachings to the person next to us! (I mean not literally but you know what I mean ... to benefit others & hence keeping the lineage alive???)
Yes there are obviously 2 views, there are obviously two roads. The road you choose to take may be "perfect for you" but not for me or everyone and that doesn't mean it is wrong for you or me either. There is no right or wrong really if you think about it, but just different consequences which will shape the negative or positive effects we'll experience later. At the end of the day nobody can stop anyone from what they want to do if they really want to go ahead and do what they want. So can we just share our thoughts without being abusive, belittling and condescending and posting topics that is not constructive to DS - No offense but that is so cheap.
We are also not saying we are going to do nothing and wait for it to pass. Not shouting and protesting doesn't mean we're just sitting around biting our nails. The very fact that this forum existing is b'cos someone did something positive and us posting in it with useful information that helps ppl think and heal and clear doubts about DS is doing something too and is positive too.
I agree Building walls is more difficult than tearing them down!
And I would take this good advice "To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect".
Dorje Shugden's main role is to protect the Dharma so I don't think he will allow the Dharma to disappear, that is his purpose. I also don't think the Dalai Lama with all his might (if lets say he is the bad guy) can bring the Dharma down either. It would be all our collective karma if it happens not just his. Well, that is my opinion. Thank you.
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wow people here seem to be really threatened here by a view that is different from theirs huh?
It seems bizarre to me that people are getting so terribly upset and their red panties in a twist because there are participants supporting a more harmonious, and less critical/aggressive view.
it's funny isn't it that we're all supposed to be Dharma practitioners here but instead of looking for ways of actually creating more harmony, we get so terribly upset when a group of forum posters DON'T support and follow our view of "exerting moral judgement" on the Dalai Lama (or any lama or practice for that matter).
It's a forum, yo! We're here to discuss, share views, have a space to contemplate and think about stuff. Not to get all antsy and het up the minute someone says something contrary to our own views and which threatens our stance.
Don't forget amidst all this that we're actually "on your side" - ie. we love and wish to protect our Dharma Protector sacred Dorje Shugden. Just because we don't love and protect our Dharma protector in the same way as you (i.e. at the expense of bashing other lamas), it doesn't mean we shouldn't have our right to express our views and thoughts.
It also doesn't mean you have to accept nor side with our view. It's just something for you to think about and a place for other people to express their views. Don't we all have the right to do that? You don't have to react in such an offended manner! LOL Tsk, let's not get quite so sensitive, shall we!
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by the way, what is wrong anyway with "all of us just getting along?"
Forgive me for being such a naive idealistic little Dharma practitioner, but really, what is wrong with people wanting to just get along?
And why are people getting so upset with others wanting to get along?
Would you be happier if everyone just fought with each other and had massive disagreements all the time on the forum? (perhaps it would be a more exciting, intellectually-stimulating, fun experience for you and that's what you're after?)
Or is it that you'd only be happy if every single one of the 260,000+ people who have viewed this website to hold the same view as you?
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wow people here seem to be really threatened here by a view that is different from theirs huh?
It seems bizarre to me that people are getting so terribly upset and their red panties in a twist because there are participants supporting a more harmonious, and less critical/aggressive view.
You see, Honey, people here recognize aggression when they see it, and you post is pervaded by passive aggression, which is no less aggressive than any other kind. Your words are insulting, vulgar, and full of insinuation. So please don't bother positioning yourself as "less critical/agressive" than anyone else, it is entirely transparent to others, if not to yourself.
The only way in which I am threatened is that this forum, which has been a wonderful place, is slowly filling with drivel and those who propound it.
Perhaps this seems angry or agressive to you, I suppose that is not to be helped.
it's funny isn't it that we're all supposed to be Dharma practitioners here but instead of looking for ways of actually creating more harmony, we get so terribly upset when a group of forum posters DON'T support and follow our view of "exerting moral judgement" on the Dalai Lama (or any lama or practice for that matter).
Do the people here amuse you? I think you are confused, miss. Noone asked you to exert any moral judgement whatsoever.
It's a forum, yo! We're here to discuss, share views, have a space to contemplate and think about stuff. Not to get all antsy and het up the minute someone says something contrary to our own views and which threatens our stance.
yo!
Don't forget amidst all this that we're actually "on your side" - ie. we love and wish to protect our Dharma Protector sacred Dorje Shugden. Just because we don't love and protect our Dharma protector in the same way as you (i.e. at the expense of bashing other lamas), it doesn't mean we shouldn't have our right to express our views and thoughts.
I imagine that you don't see that by repeatedly characterizing those who disagree with you as having some sort of undergarment dysfunction and being angry, bashing, etc, you are also trying to censor and silence. Please refer to your own post above and try to take it to heart. In the meantime, express away!
It also doesn't mean you have to accept nor side with our view. It's just something for you to think about and a place for other people to express their views. Don't we all have the right to do that? You don't have to react in such an offended manner! LOL Tsk, let's not get quite so sensitive, shall we!
you reassurances mean a great deal to me. I am glad I do not have accept your view in the absence of any evidence, that would be disspiriting, to say the least.
I'm not sure why you repeatedly assert your right to make your statements, has anyone intimated that you had not?
You react as you please, we will do the same.
Only someone who had no exposure to the actual consequences of what was taking place could afford to be so glib.
you can lead by example and be less sensitive yourself. If you pull it off, perhaps I will give it a try.
Haha! I did enjoy being "tsk'ed," though, thanks for that! :)
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by the way, what is wrong anyway with "all of us just getting along?"
nothing, it is the end goal of all of us here, of course.
Forgive me for being such a naive idealistic little Dharma practitioner, but really, what is wrong with people wanting to just get along?
We all want it, but we're not going to pretend to get along when we don't at the moment. It's not an exaggeration to say that it is like someone trying to burn down your home, and having someone else say, "just get along." Fine, as soon as I stop them from torching my home!
And why are people getting so upset with others wanting to get along?
my sincere advice to you is not to assume you know what others' minds are, even (or especially!) when it appears that you can know. It will save you a great deal of heartache and prevent you from writing the same meaningless thing on the internet over and over.
Would you be happier if everyone just fought with each other and had massive disagreements all the time on the forum? (perhaps it would be a more exciting, intellectually-stimulating, fun experience for you and that's what you're after?)
YES! oh wait, no! wait, i'm confused now. Man, that was a tough one!
Sorry, answer: we would all prefer if everyone would get along, just like you.
Or is it that you'd only be happy if every single one of the 260,000+ people who have viewed this website to hold the same view as you?
i would enjoy that, yes, but i will not hold my breath. I will be happy regardless, as I am right now.
:)
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honeydakini etc. -
like crazycloud says, of course I'd prefer for everyone to get along, but it would be, in my view, both utterly naive and extremely dangerous out of that preference to do nothing now to defend our lineage from the DL's attempt at all-out extermination.
and no, I do not believe that Dorje Shugden can magically stop him if we do nothing from our side. this is our karma ripening after all and it's our responsibilty to do something about it, through prayer and through protest, with our holy Protector's blessings.
and no, for the last time, I am not angry with you or the DL, or upset or bitter. i am very concerned that you and your friends, out of either naivety or malice, are in danger of weakening opposition to the DL's destructive actions through your concerted efforts to spread this "shut up and take it" approach to the DL's abuses.
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I am certain that I have a special place in my heart, an entire file just for the Dalia Lama, one in which I hold that love that I held until he decided it was too boring and kept straying from all of us.
What can one do with all the broken trust and love? As I said, it harder to build wall than tear them down.
It is he who must recant and we will see to the best of our abilities that he does it. He cannot continue to tear and claw at everyone else who does not take to his perspective. It is he that pushes the enevelope to far and causes Nations to find even more things to disagree upon.
I think everyone should do as the site logo suggest, "RATTLE THAT CAGE"
I think we should all practice Unconditional Love and the Precepts Of Lord Buddha.
I do not think we should just sit in a corner and shut up.
I do think we should make it as clear as crystal to the Dalia Lama, that it he that needs to change his attitude and listen to what we say and speak to us as Human Beings, not Aliens or Communist. If he does that, then I have no choice but to continue as before to say what it is in as many differern way possible until he gets it.
To hold someone in your heart as a spiritual guide, to respect and venerate him as such, and to trust that he knows what is best, is something that most if not all of us on this forum have done. How much would it hurt if one day we found out that we were wrong to put our trust and faith in that person? And we vent our frustrations on him again and again in the hope that he will correct his wrong ways, his wrong actions, his wrong deeds? That could happen to any of us with our own spiritual guides.
Yet, we are supposed to regards our spiritual guides as Buddhas. They ARE supposed to know better than us. And their actions could look wrong in the near term, while having far-ranging beneficial effects in the long term. What if we are all wrong? What if there was a greater purpose to his actions? What if Nechung, Dalai Lama, Shugden, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Gangchen Rinpoche etc were working on a bigger masterplan? WHAT IF?? At this stage in the game, we would not be able to tell.
I am not saying that Dalai Lama is RIGHT. Neither am I saying he is WRONG. I am saying that I am in no position to judge his actions. He is the Dalai Lama. He has been recognised and enthroned in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism that I am a part of. The lamas of my lineage and other lineages regard his as the Dalai Lama. The majority of lamas respect him and do not criticise his actions nor oppose him openly. Dorje Shugden does not criticise him but always advises his followers to respect the Dalai Lama and I will follow this advice.
The Dalai Lama's actions are difficult to justify or explain. But TK's theory resonates with me (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0)
We are all entitled to speak and voice our thoughts and opinions. And this is the place to do it. RATTLE THAT CAGE.
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When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy.
I don't accept this, it seems like competition for resources and for the hearts and minds of would be devotees is the very source of many of the ills we are experiencing. What good are big temples and fancy statues if lamas and monks have to scurry around in fear?
Also, trying to promote our protector is not quite correct thinking, the point is to achieve stable Dharma practice, something not possible with this controversy.
Dear Trinley Kalsang & forum friends,
I am a newbie and the PURPOSE of me coming to the forum is to LEARN ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN because I read Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and became very interested in this protector. I also study online about the protector’s line of incarnation as great masters & I wish to get DS empowerment in the future.
I do not have any secret agenda but I just happened to agree with the noobs with their idea, perhaps because I am sick of the view that His Holiness is a “bad guy”.
Please help me understand this, the fall of Tibet is bad, but that has sent many great masters out of Tibet and now Buddhism pervades the world, especially in the West because of Tibet’s fall. So in this case, do we consider this scenario of Tibet’s fall as good or bad?
Perhaps in this same way, Dalai Lama the “bad guy”, taking advantage of the current situation, is a strong force in helping to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world. And I don’t think it’s due to ONLY Dalai Lama’s hardwork.
At the same time that the situation is happening with the ban, I also see that there’s contribution from:
a) other Shugden Lamas making it grow big by their own deeds & hardwork all these while, providing the foundation/ place for people to learn about Shugden since long time ago e.g Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Gangchen Rinpoche, Venerable Kuten (Choijin) Lama in United States and so on
b) recent establishment of strong & commited Shugden sangha & monasteries who are “fearless”
like Serpom & Shar Ganden
c) Gaden Trisur “coming out” and joining Shar Ganden – telling the whole world that Gaden Trisur can give up everything for the protector (sends a strong message that no way will he give up DS practice)
I think these are the contributors and hence I am not just trying to justify Dalai Lama’s actions and saying His Holiness’s “ill actions” will promote the growth of DS, but perhaps that and all the above.
For me, I personally don’t think WSS should shut up. Instead, WSS should be more ACTIVE - not in protesting, but helping to raise awareness about the practice of Dorje Shugden and how it has and could benefit the people to potential students of Dharma, so that they can learn & study holy teachings of Je Tsongkhapa and keep the lineage and tradition alive way after we’re all gone. I agree with WSS but not its methods. I read “The Great Deception” in the hope to learn more about the protector but ended up reading about politics (yucks!) and defamation and faults of His Holiness.
I thank TK for his non-bias views and made a newbie like me feel VERY WELCOMED always to post here because I am not as learned or have studied much re Dorje Shugden, like seniors here eg Trinley Kalsang, A Friend, or Lhakpa Gyaltshen.
I do wish this would be a place of learning about Dorje Shugden’s lineages, and DISCUSSION about what’s happening in the world of DS practitioners. And I think instead of anymore “noobs” discussion, we should focus more on sharing news and resources to strengthen our faith & practice, instead of discussing about people’s secret agenda (EVEN if there really is any!) on the forum.
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Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate.
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.
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Dear A Friend,
I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.
Let me make some things clear to you please:
1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more. I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.
2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.
3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.
4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.
5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.
6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.
7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.
9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.
10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.
Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.
I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.
I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.
A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.
I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.
Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.
Much sincerity,
Tk
P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.
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Dear CRAZY CLOUD, ATISHA'S COOK etc,
I must apologise for reacting so hastily and i am sorry if I have come across as also being belligerent (falling into my own trap!). Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts, especially CRAZY CLOUD; I appreciate it. I do understand your points that you are not against the Dalai Lama, per say, but against his actions, and I do also agree very much that the actual facts of what is happening must not be ignored. I actively share and promote this website to others because I do very much appreciate the accounts that are given of what is really going. And it is most definitely necessary for the world to see what is happening.
However, I do also appreciate and support the stance that while we should be aware of what is going on, we don't necessarily need to criticise to make this happen. I believe that showing the gruesome and horrible facts and providing knowledge and information is in itself very convincing of what is "wrong" and what is, at this time, not in line with the Dharma teachings that we are all trying to practice. This is just my view, but, like I said myself (and shouldn't contradict!), this is a forum, so we must continue to talk talk talk and debate. I guess this in itself is providing knowledge and information for many thousands of others to read, understand and eventually develop their own views and action.
Like I said in my previous post, we are all actually "on the same side" - i.e. we all love our protector and wish to further his practice in the world and share the benefit of his practice with others. I am sorry if I have added to conflict even within the "same camp" - it was not my intention to do this and I am real glad to hear that everyone is still discussing openly and this space allows that.
i also appreciate and understand that your "reaction" towards the noobs and speaking up about our posts, is out of a great concern that we may be causing disharmony . I read Atisha's cook's post (as was quoted by TK) that he was concerned that we were trying to undermine or destroy the many efforts to "help the persecuted". I had not intended to do this in any way and i apologise if it came across as if I did not appreciate nor care about your practice and the pain that you have also experienced through the many years of this ban.
I just wished to share a differing view which I do hold but, like TK, I personally don't wish to speak against the Dalai Lama. I apologise again that I had misread your comments as being "against" the noobs or being threatened or angered.
Truce? and onwards onwards to more sharing and discussion...!
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I am not saying that Dalai Lama is RIGHT. Neither am I saying he is WRONG. I am saying that I am in no position to judge his actions. He is the Dalai Lama. He has been recognised and enthroned in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism that I am a part of. The lamas of my lineage and other lineages regard his as the Dalai Lama. The majority of lamas respect him and do not criticise his actions nor oppose him openly. Dorje Shugden does not criticise him but always advises his followers to respect the Dalai Lama and I will follow this advice.
Please, use your wisdom. What the Dalai Lama is doing is either guided by wisdom or guided by ignorance. Your inability to come to a clear conclusion regarding the Dalai Lama is due to your attachment to him. Can't an imposter be enthroned in the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism? LOOK AT HIS ACTIONS AND TELL ME IF THEY ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH BUDDHA'S TEACHINGS. Do they lead to happiness or suffering?
Be objective, don't depend upon titles and reputation but upon the evidence of the actions. His actions are insane, they are not the actions of a holy being. Since when has disparaging one's Gurus and trying to destroy their tradition been the actions of a holy being? Someone else in this forum used Marpa and Milarepa as an example. Even though he was severely 'mistreated' by Marpa, Milarepa never criticised him but tried to keep pure view. The Dalai Lama has received nothing but kindness from his Guru Trijang Rinpoche but he has the audacity to blackmail him and denounce him. ARE THESE THE ACTIONS OF A HOLY BEING?
Every word of 'A Great Deception' is the truth. It could have been written by your Teacher, you don't know. The Dalai Lama is an imposter who is harming the Dharma. Look at the evidence, see the truth and stop 'the great deception' of lying to yourself and misleading others.
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Re HH the Daiai Lama, i do not know whether he is insane or not and I am in no position to judge - however,
1. My Guru tells me to respect HH the Dalai Lama and not criticise him.
2. Dorje Shugden through oracles have said the same thing.
"Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning." (read more here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425)
I believe your Gurus may advise differently from my Guru, so we shall follow our own paths for the common goal of ensuring that Dorje Shugden practice endures.
Happy Losar!
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Re HH the Daiai Lama, i do not know whether he is insane or not and I am in no position to judge - however,
1. My Guru tells me to respect HH the Dalai Lama and not criticise him.
2. Dorje Shugden through oracles have said the same thing.
"Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning." (read more here [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425[/url])
I believe your Gurus may advise differently from my Guru, so we shall follow our own paths for the common goal of ensuring that Dorje Shugden practice endures.
Happy Losar!
I agree with you Wisdom Being. For those who believe in Dorje Shugden but doubt in oracles due to Nechung’s inconsistencies, well DORJE SHUGDEN is NOT Nechung!
And if you believe that Nechung was the one who encouraged Duldzin to become a protector, why would Nechung now oppose Dorje Shugden. I don’t think Nechung is jealous of a protector whom he has helped to create. Nechung is going to stepped down and Dorje Shugden is going to take his place as the the chief dharmapala of Tibet after Nechung has (read my post in this thread: Re: HH the 16th Karmapa: a deity that one must rely on in the future, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=565.msg4313#msg4313 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=565.msg4313#msg4313))
Also, if you doubt the oracles, then why do you think many high lamas, including Shar Ganden, Lama Gangchen Rinpoche, and many centres still continue to consult Dorje Shugden? Many high lamas with clairvoyant powers are showing us that this is one method that we can rely on, because we do not have clairvoyant.
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Dear CRAZY CLOUD, ATISHA'S COOK etc,
I must apologise for reacting so hastily and i am sorry if I have come across as also being belligerent (falling into my own trap!). Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts, especially CRAZY CLOUD; I appreciate it. I do understand your points that you are not against the Dalai Lama, per say, but against his actions, and I do also agree very much that the actual facts of what is happening must not be ignored. I actively share and promote this website to others because I do very much appreciate the accounts that are given of what is really going. And it is most definitely necessary for the world to see what is happening.
To quote Biggie Smalls, "Now Honey plays me close like butter played toast."
However, I do also appreciate and support the stance that while we should be aware of what is going on, we don't necessarily need to criticise to make this happen. I believe that showing the gruesome and horrible facts and providing knowledge and information is in itself very convincing of what is "wrong" and what is, at this time, not in line with the Dharma teachings that we are all trying to practice. This is just my view, but, like I said myself (and shouldn't contradict!), this is a forum, so we must continue to talk talk talk and debate. I guess this in itself is providing knowledge and information for many thousands of others to read, understand and eventually develop their own views and action.
This is the core of our disagreement, and it is a very difficult one to navigate, because some of us here are following our Gurus, and some of you are following yours. They are giving conflicting advice. The problem for me in many of the posts that I have been reading here of late is that I often feel that the newer members are trying to foist their Guru's advice on others, and that is generally in poor taste.
The way I see it, and I am well aware this is not a view that is accepted by all, is that the Dalai Lama is a deluded man in a high political position. This whole view that the DL is working for the spread of the practice is just absurd on its face, and has nothing to recommend it other than our hopes that everyone can be pals. It is so painful to read things like "Why would the DL do so many horrible and contradictory things, it doesn't make sense, there must be a bigger plan in the works!"
so from our point of view, actually it is necessary to destroy the Dalai Lama's reputation with our words. Does this mean we dislike the Dalai Lama? That would be contradictory and meaningless, and this is another reason that is has been so unpleasant to read the nooby posts suggesting over and over that we shouldn't be angry and hateful, as though we were. It really is so presumtuous and shallow and yes, unkind.
So when people say, as you do above, that we can point out what is taking place but there is no need to critisize, we must part company. Please believe me, it's an idea I like, and am very attracted to, and idea many of us had been trying since the mid-nineties. The secret is, and lean in real close now...it will not work.
The Dalai Lama is using his speech to destroy our lineage, and he simply has too much unchallenged authority, even when he blatantly lies, no-one dares say 'boo', because their reputation is immediately trashed. If we do not reduce the power of his speech by telling the truth and by this I mean the whole stinking messy hideous embarassing truth, our lineage will be finished. When your Lama and mine are gone, the TGIE and it's western lackeys will descend like vultures and try to finish us off.
So yes, it is gross, some of the things we have to. And yes, our reputation will be damaged by all the screaming and yelling and name calling. I completely agree with you that in the eyes of others it is unpalatable, and turns them off Dorje Shugden and even Buddhism in general to some extent. However, and this is a BIG however, if we embarass the Dalai Lama, he has to stop persecuting the people, because it is against the law and it destroys the only thing this man has, which is his unearned reputation, a fragile thing if ever there was one.
So when we protested most recently, in 08, we were greeted by a wave of thank you's from DS practitioners in the Tibetan settlements, they were praying for us, and many said that if it wouldn't cause their families to be made outcast, the would stand up wiht us. It WORKED, and the DL had to back off his intensifying campaign against the practitoners. Many of the Lamas who supported the WSS and who have many western disciples paid for all the food and housing for the expelled monks, hundreds and hundreds of them, and then donated a great deal of money, enabling Serpom Norling and Ganden Shartse to come into being.
This is not a discussion targeted at bourgeois educated elite westerners, it is a centuries old feud born in Tibet. This is how this debate is conducted, and miss honeydakini, it is a gutter streetfight.
So I am sorry it is embarassing to some that we use harsh language. I'm sure it seems un-Buddhist to some, but frankly my dear... well, you know the rest.
Does anyone really think that the Dalai Lama is a Muslim? Of course not. Calling him 'saffron robed muslim' means "dharma destroyer" in Tibetan feud-ese. When they expelled Venerable Geshe Kelang Gyatso from Sera, the abbot called him "Mohammed of Gazhni." Did one sinlge person stand up and say, "hey, for the abbot of one of the most renowned Buddhist monasteries that ever was, that is harsh speech! Sir, you are breaking your precepts! How un-Buddhist!" Did the Dalai Lama say one thing? Was this man reprimanded? THE TGIE PUT THE LETTER ON THEIR WEBSITE! THEY WERE PROUD OF IT!
This is because the Muslims wiped out Buddhism in the Holy land, India, so calling someone a Muslim in this context is saying "you are destroying Buddhas teachings."
Right now the whole world thinks the Dalai Lama is someone that he certainly is not, and those scales must be removed from the eyes, otherwise not just Dorje Shugden practice will be destroyed, the entire Buddhadharma as it existed in Tibet will be lost, as we swirl into a frenzy of blind tulku-following, oracle-worshipping, lineage-ignoring superstition and nonsense.
so, even if everyone thinks we are crazy, and the academics and hollywood-set despair of us, we will go on shouting and calling our names, and gradually, actual people who don't give a fig that some people think the Dalai Lama is a god will look at this situation and think "he's not who he pretends to be." Really, it couldn't be clearer, if one has the courage to look. The only people who don't see it are those who have been told that "his holiness" is Avalokiteshvara, and have swallowed this view, in an absolute perversion of guruyoga, the politisizing and standardizing a view that is meant to be a practice for his trained disciples.
now, many lamas will try to minimize conflict, because they are invested in the cause of Tibet, and they have samaya with this political lama. Sad for them. This view does not constrain us in the west. I will tell you openly that I do not trust Tibetans in the settlements to be able to say what they really feel, they are under a terrible pressure. Even many Tibetans outside who have family in india cannot say what they think. So we say it for them.
When people say "Trijang never speaks against, Dagom never does, Gangchen never does...." This entirely misses the point. The disiples of these lamas do, what does that tell you? These lamas say what they think privately, but they are cornered, and cannot say publically what they feel. Many close disciples of Dagom Rinpoche feel that he was murdered over this, and they told me this themselves.
Here's an anecdote for you....
At one of the demonstrations, a huge tibetan dude pulled his giant Escalade onto the sidewalk in front of myself and a tibetan practitioner, and drew his finger across his throat while grimacing and leering at my friend. The indication was "I will slit your throat. Then he backed it up by saying, "when you get back to india, you will not live three days. I will find your family." He was seething with hate, and I can tell you I was genuinely unnerved. Then this charming fellow took out his digital camera and snapped a picture of my friend. A few days later this picture appeared on wanted posters all around Queens, where he lived, pointing out that he was a chinese spy and that something should be done. I'm fairly sure that precisely what that meant was evident to all. I have a picture of this poster.
I was shaken, and tried to be supportive, and asked if he was ok. He said, "Maybe they will kill me, but I can't be afraid anymore." There was a hard set in his jaw, and he looked sad and resolved in a way I have never forgotten.
I wonder why more people don't speak out? It must be because His Holiness is Avalokishevara, no?
Like I said in my previous post, we are all actually "on the same side" - i.e. we all love our protector and wish to further his practice in the world and share the benefit of his practice with others. I am sorry if I have added to conflict even within the "same camp" - it was not my intention to do this and I am real glad to hear that everyone is still discussing openly and this space allows that.
yeah, ok.
I just wished to share a differing view which I do hold but, like TK, I personally don't wish to speak against the Dalai Lama. I apologise again that I had misread your comments as being "against" the noobs or being threatened or angered.
I can only speak for myself when I say I am definitely not against anyone here.
Truce? and onwards onwards to more sharing and discussion...!
you can be a friend of mine any day.
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haha i had no idea i disturbed all of you so badly and when did i threaten you guys? how can that be perceived as a threat when all i said that the way some of the posts would make my monk friends laugh because they know whats really going on? when have Dharma practitioners become so paranoid and unsettling? is this the result of propitiating Shudgen? Please let me know it is not.
Just because I spell Shudgen in this way dosent mean that 'i cant spell it correctly' it just happens to be a different dialect. And i'm more comfortable with that one.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe perhaps an extremely realized being has asked his disciples to perhaps, help you see the bigger picture which is why they come in here to not only help you realize but make this forum more active than it could be? Because he sees the big picture?
Especially because we are Shudgen practitioners we should not be BITTER or show our bitterness towards DL. What kind of example is that? Shudgen himself has ask his followers to respect DL in trances. Yet why do some people explicitly transgress this simple instruction?
i'm not telling anyone what to do but just a few points that i'm putting here for everyone to think about.
I'm sure different Lamas will give different advice according to the situation, the level and characters of their students etc. We are all reflections and representations of our Lamas and only WE ourselves know if we are representing our Lama and lineage well.
Even though I empathise with your view, which is similar to mine, i do not particularly care for the tone which may give the impression of too much ego. I'm sure your Lama (if you have one) is a qualified Lama but Ensapa - please reflect your Lama and your lineage well and please convey your messages with humility and respect. Sangha do not laugh at others, Ensapa.
Also, you hint that a realised being is asking his disciples to help? Are you talking from your own perspective or on behalf of the so-called 'noobs'? Do you not have enough substance on your own to speak from that you need to pull the 'realised being' card? Whether someone is a realised being or not is already contentious - just because you think someone is highly realised, it doesn't mean that I or anyone else will agree.We already don't even agree that the Dalai Lama is a realised being or not!
Anyway, i hope you don't mind my frankness. No offence intended. Please contemplate, Dharma brother, contemplate.
Happy Losar!
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crazycloud, you've said everything i was about to. i agree with you on this 100%.
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Can I just say a big 'thanks' to everyone on this forum for engaging in this debate. The objections raised by the 'Noobs' are ones I hear fairly frequently & I have sometimes struggled to answer them. Through reading posts in this & other threads my clarity over the dangers of their point of view has increased & I feel much better equipped to give a clear message to the people around me. My point is: Don't worry too much that this debate has been a waste of time - people are learning & sharpening their wisdom (well, some people anyway!). Lets face it - it's an inevitable debate & even if you've said it all before & may have to say it again, your efforts are producing good results. That said, I wouldn't blame you for simply disengaging from it if people keep repeating the same tired point over & over ad infinitum. Maybe you could just start posting links to existing refutations!!!
Hold on, I've just come up with a theory: The 'Noobs' are actually emanations of Buddha's helping to spread the Dharma by playing Devils Advocate & increasing the wisdom of people like myself! Thanks Noobs! :)
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Thank you Kate and Middleway, I feel different cool breezes coming in and refreshing the website and the discussion. Great.
I also thank you Ensapa, because you gave us an explanation about the mistery of the Noobs. So your Lama told you all to come here to this website and give us advice. Cool, now you might also listen to us and start thinking for yourself and even bring this exchange back to your Lama, he might want to participate too. After all, there is a lot of interpretive matter around here, so there is room for discussion. He might even become a member of the Forum, either openly or anonymously, and participate in this conversation. Why not?
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Hi guys,
I read through the thread and I am amazed by the amount of passion that everyone puts towards voicing their views. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that I agree with the points presented by both sides. However although being very angry with the Dalai Lama is very alluring considering all that has been done.
However, I still can't discredit the possibility that a higher purpose that the Dalai Lama has to lift Dorje Shugden higher and farther throughout the world seemed like another exciting possibility. If it was not, than we really question the entire lineage of the great Mahasiddhas that continue to inspire us with Tantric vision of perfection that always lie outside the framework of what we ordinarily think is right or wrong. I know! Such an explanation can hardly justify what the Dalai Lama is doing yet I dwell in this notion still, perferring this view to escape the insanity of anger.
Instead of condemning hating another being whom I am not even sure is Avalokiteshvara or not as I do not have the wisdom to judge. I leave the judging to our great lineage Lama Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche because he had advised us not to judge the Dalai Lama when the time of conflict arises. He being such a great awakened being must have foreseen all this.
Anyway, when we die, all must come to pass but Dorje Shugden will prevail. Shouldn't we work harder to preserve and propagate him so he benefit others? Wouldn't it be an even better legacy to leave behind?
Happy Losar!
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Big Uncle -
who is expressing hatred for the Dalai Lama here? please don't confuse strong words and condemnation for hatred. we do not hate the Dalai Lama. we will not stop condemning him until he stops destroying holy Dharma.
please stop refusing to accept this - it is getting very tiresome. if you perceive hatred, look to your own mind.
and on a related point - please don't talk about "sides" here, as if we are split. where are these sides? we are all brothers and sisters in our Dorje Shugden practice, but some among us disagree on the nature of the Dalai Lama and the best method to stop his harmful actions. this does not put us on opposing sides: we are all on the same side here, assuming everyone is truthfully describing their views. once again, if you perceive sides, look to your own mind.
be careful not to engage in divisive speech, please - that's something we can all agree that no-one wants
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Dear Atishas cook,
It is obvious there is hate involved or (fine!) a very strong dislike to condemn someone. With what I have read so far in some of the posts, how else am I going to feel about the Dalai Lama? Don't tell me, that everyone in this forum is spreading love for the Dalai Lama and I'm missing the point. I don't think so! So please don't you go on your moral/Dharma high horse and say that you don't hate the Dalai Lama so as to put me down. I don't think that is necessary. I hope we can make peace on that one.
Dear everyone else,
Anyway, I think i need to clarify - I am not purposely creating sides nor am I trying to say that people here hate the Dalai Lama. I just want to express that I am doing my best to keep a sane mind with my practice - Dorje Shugden and choosing to believe that the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture for all of us. That's all.
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I'm not putting you down. but you're confused: you say that it's obvious there's hate involved because of our strong condemnation - this is not correct. and, with respect, you are saying that people here hate the Dalai Lama! all I'm saying is that this is wrong. please think clearly.
I'm glad you're not trying purposefully to create division. all I'm saying is please take care how you use words like "sides".
peace.
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I'm sure there'll be NEW NOOBS coming into this forum in the near future, who will also benefit from all these passionate debates. I know I have benefited much. I must admit that initially, I felt some form of hostility, calling of names, jumping to conclusions about my intentions. If I can say so now, there are much more openness in our debates. ;)
best wishes to all!
DK
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However, I still can't discredit the possibility that a higher purpose that the Dalai Lama has to lift Dorje Shugden higher and farther throughout the world seemed like another exciting possibility. If it was not, than we really question the entire lineage of the great Mahasiddhas that continue to inspire us with Tantric vision of perfection that always lie outside the framework of what we ordinarily think is right or wrong. I know! Such an explanation can hardly justify what the Dalai Lama is doing yet I dwell in this notion still, perferring this view to escape the insanity of anger.
Ah, now I see the basis from which you have written some of your posts. I think (and please do correct me if I have seen it wrongly), that you have given yourself only two possibilities: Either (1) the DL is a supreme holy being, whereby all his actions have a greater purpose, unseen beneficial aim, and that there is after all a great plan, or (2) the DL is a scoundrel, utterly evil, to be hated and loathed.
But have you ever considered a proposition number (3)? It says, that the DL is a human being, a monk, and so forth. And that whether he is viewed as a holy one or as an evil one, or even better, as a human being, all he's actions can be judged in a normal fashion. Like for instance: If he lies about Dharmic issues, it is a lie, bad karma, and so forth, but it is not a "mysterious action of a God, that will later save all humanity from the Evil" nor it is an "devilish twisted stratagem made to destroy the whole of Buddhism and plunge this world into the darkness". It is merely an unethical and unskillful action made by a human being.
Proposition 3 is very nice, because it doesn't force one to classify or categorize living beings into separate classes, living or existing under separate systems of ethics. It treats everybody in the same way - according to the teachings of karma, as taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. I like it personally very much.
If one does not accept proposition 3, one will have great problems in one's ethical life. For instance, if one is offered a cup of tea, one has to first assess whether the offerer is a mara or not. If he is a mara, then the offered cup of tea is probably a devilish trick, causing attachement to rise, or something. Or if somebody comes and kicks one to head, one has to assess whether the assailant is a Buddha or not. If he is a Buddha, then one can happily receive the roundhouse kick, and be sure that oh boy, now the blessings do really rain in. But then again, how can anyone assess the person in front of one? How can you know if the cup-offerer is this or that, a mara, a human, or a Buddha? Or the kung-fu kicker? One cannot. But if one accepts proposition 3, one can react to acts of goodness in appropriate way, and one can react to acts of aggression in proper manner. There is no need to asses the "status of the actor" beforehand, or afterwards, but the act can be taken as is. Life outside of the proposition 3 is no life at all. At least it is not Buddhist life.
There is no need, and in normal life no time, to label the actors as this or that, good or evil. The only thing that matters is the act itself, and one can judge those acts by the universally applicable ethical system taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. There is this immediacy and naturalness. The non-judgemental proposition 3.
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ZP: Non judgemental... i like that.
Buddhism without Borders: Contemporary Developments of Buddhism in the West
at the Institute of Buddhist Studies
Berkeley, California
March 18 - 21, 2010
Panel VI: Interpreting Buddhism in the West, 9:30 -12:30
An Analysis of Western Involvement in the Dorje Shugden Controversy
Jeannine Chandler, Siena College
For centuries, Tibetan Buddhists have witnessed the unfolding of a controversy regarding the status and worship of Dorje Shugden, a wrathful protector deity in the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon. Shugden is known for his power and success in protecting members of the Gelug tradition and for punishing those adherents who mix the practices and teachings of the Tibetan schools. Since 1996, the Dalai Lama has proscribed Shugden practice amongst Tibetan Buddhists, citing Shugden’s troubled past and sectarian tendencies. In consideration of Tibetan Buddhism’s globalization, his restrictions on Shugden worship have confused and angered a number of Tibetan Buddhists around the world, both Tibetans and non-Tibetans. The Dalai Lama’s proscription of the deity’s worship and the alleged persecution of Shugden worshippers in exile communities have drawn criticism of his roles as a politician and a religious leader. The debate over the status and worship of protector deity Dorje Shugden has highlighted issues in Tibetan Buddhism relating to the guru-disciple relationship, the authenticity of lineage, and authority amongst the schools in exile and in the West.
Tibetan lamas who have settled in the West have taken sides in the Shugden debate, and subsequently influenced the perspectives of their Western students. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition (of which Shugden worship is a central component), has led his Western students in the crusade against the persecution of Shugden worshippers. The injection of Western attitudes, views and values into the Shugden affair has further facilitated the transformation of the dispute. The different cultural context of liberal Western society has added a new dimension to the debate, as each side has co-opted Western “foot soldiers” and used Western rhetoric to gain supporters for its point-of-view. Western confusion regarding the position of the lama in Tibetan Buddhism has exacerbated the Shugden conflict. Shugden-worshipers have organized and initiated protests against the Dalai Lama’s decree throughout Europe and North America. The cult-like devotion to Kelsang Gyatso by his disciples and the protests against the Dalai Lama expose the ambiguity that surrounds the guru-disciple relationship in Tibetan Buddhism in the West. The Shugden conflict provides evidence that, despite a surface commitment to ecumenicism in the overall exile Tibetan community, sectarian consciousness has actually become entrenched amongst Tibetan Buddhists in the West.
The globalization of Tibetan Buddhism has also influenced the forms and forums of the Shugden controversy. Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet. Debates over topics such as the deity’s status and the position of the Dalai Lama in the dispute have appeared on myriad websites, blogs and discussion boards. These online polemics and international demonstrations have intensified the Shugden conflict. Western involvement has thus complicated and prolonged a centuries-old Tibetan religious dispute.
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Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet.
??? that's like saying: "the oppressed have perpetuated the conflict by not allowing themselves or their families to be attacked and destroyed by the oppressor".
since when has defending oneself and one's (Dharma) family from harm been a cause of conflict??
i despair sometimes of these intellectuals, journalists and Dalai Lama fan boys.
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It's easy to write, it's harder to substantiate, which is something this article is lacking. Sounds highly subjective to me rather than academic. Another biased forum argument in the guise of academic work. I'm afraid my cynical mind sees 'pride in my opinion' written all over that piece.
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Jeannine Chandler would probably think that Naropa had 'cult like devotion' to Tilopa. Why single out Geshe Kelsang? Because he's the only one who is prepared publicly to make a stand and have his name associated with opposing the DL. What about the 'cult like devotion' of those who support the Dalai Lama's position? - no mention because they're all so right and reasonable!
There's also no mention of the many Tibetans who have Tibetan Teachers who oppose the Dalai Lama on Dorje Shugden. She's painting this opposition as a 'Western' thing.
Shugden is known for punishing those who mix traditions? Why isn't he punishing the Dalai Lama then?
Academics don't help because most are like people who write about sugar without ever having tasted it. They like to appear objective but bias is written all over this.
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"...punishing those adherents who mix the practices.."
Doesn't this sound like some monotheistic type of view/interpretation applied to a Buddhist deity?
Anyway, Vinayaholder, thanks for posting this article. Acquiring information be it similar or different view is cool..makes me think.
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The globalization of Tibetan Buddhism has also influenced the forms and forums of the Shugden controversy. Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet. Debates over topics such as the deity’s status and the position of the Dalai Lama in the dispute have appeared on myriad websites, blogs and discussion boards. These online polemics and international demonstrations have intensified the Shugden conflict. Western involvement has thus complicated and prolonged a centuries-old Tibetan religious dispute.
And yet, the practice is growing stronger than ever, more and more people are being exposed to Dharma. Even if they are merely dabbling in it as a fad or a trend or a passing fancy, there are still karmic imprints being made (seeing a buddha image, attending just one or two teachings by a lama, hearing just a few words of Dharma teachings). Yes, perhaps it has "complicated and prolonged" a dispute but that is precisely what a modern mind is like - complicated! The modern mind is somehow automatically drawn to all things complicated, controversial. People may come into Dharma by something as undharmic as politics or controversy, but then gain more understanding of the teachings and eventually, hopefully practice. Isn't that the nature of tantra itself? Using the very things that enslave us (politics, complications, smut, controversy) to free us?
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Ah, the good old "God works in mysterious ways" -argument.
Yippikayeehaa!
>:(
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Ah, the good old "God works in mysterious ways" -argument.
Yippikayeehaa!
>:(
yes. Hitler, Saddam and Dubya are probably all Buddhas - they certainly taught the disadvantages of samsara! best not criticise them, i guess... ::)
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Seems to me to be quite a stretch for someone who is attracted to strife, controversy and politics ending up settling into Dharma practice in order to develop peaceful a mind.
I have never met a person attracted to Dharma due to an attraction to controversy and politics. Does anyone know of someone who has? Some people on this forum say this type of practitioner exists. Who are they? Where are they? It would be interesting to hear their story (if such a person does exist!).
xx
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Seems to me to be quite a stretch for someone who is attracted to strife, controversy and politics ending up settling into Dharma practice in order to develop peaceful a mind.
I have never met a person attracted to Dharma due to an attraction to controversy and politics. Does anyone know of someone who has? Some people on this forum say this type of practitioner exists. Who are they? Where are they? It would be interesting to hear their story (if such a person does exist!).
xx
I know of no such people.
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I don't think people get into spirituality or Buddhism because of the controversy directly. They get into it because the controversy generates a lot of publicity and get many people curious about the Lamas, the deity or practice. The amount of publicity the Dalai Lama created for Dorje Shugden is phenomenal and would have taken millions of dollars in publicity and promotions. I repeat, no one is going to come in Dharma because of the controversy but the name would be carried far and wide.
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DS works in mysterious ways! Controversy does create attention, does create questioning, does create the interest. You know sex sells baby, and it selling quite strong today.
I hope that more and more people will come to dharma through unconventional means, you can't get much more uncoventional than to rip your reputation to shreds, and be the cause of people turning their thoughts into action. Whether its on the end of a placard protesting or at the end of a keyboard discussing in forums.
Its been awhile since this grand NOOOOOB visited the forum. There's soo much to catch up on.
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I don't think my question has been answered. Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.
And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban. Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple. They do not have anywhere else to go. Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event. Now it's just the way things are.
The ban is not good. It is suffering. As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom. (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you on this forum are familiar with the verse).
The ban, in itself; no good qualities.
Something to contemplate.
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I don't think my question has been answered. Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.
And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban. Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple. They do not have anywhere else to go. Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event. Now it's just the way things are.
The ban is not good. It is suffering. As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom. (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you on this forum are familiar with the verse).
The ban, in itself; no good qualities.
Something to contemplate.
thank you for injecting some perspective into this debate from the heart of where the outer problem is manifesting. Your speech has more power because of your proximity to the worst effects. Stupidly I hadn't thought of the obvious point you raise - there are MANY fewer DS practitioners now because of the ban. Clearly showing the effect it gives rise to.
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I don't think my question has been answered. Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.
To answer your question, no i don't know anyone who has directly become a sincere practitioner BECAUSE of the controversy. But i have had experienced several times - people who were not interested in Buddhism but who had heard about the protests against the ban on the BBC (news station in UK) and brought it up over the dining table and i have had the blessed opportunity to EXPLAIN the real facts behind the ban. and no, they did not become Buddhists or DS practitioners (not yet :)) but at least seeds have been planted.
And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban. Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple. They do not have anywhere else to go. Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event. Now it's just the way things are.
i don't know if there are any statistics regarding the number of DS practitioners. I am SURE that many practitioners suffered and continue to suffer because of the ban. There are many DS practitioners who cannot practise openly and that is torture for them too. "it's just the way things are" is a good attitude though, because it is.
The ban is not good. It is suffering. As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom. (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you on this forum are familiar with the verse).
The ban, in itself; no good qualities.
I am FULLY in agreement with you there. FULLY. To me, it has no good qualities either. But i completely trust my Protector that all this happened for a reason, otherwise wouldn't he as a Dharma Protector who clears all our obstacles do so swiftly, especially as it is against his own practice. As he has not, i believe he has a plan in mind. Otherwise i have no faith in my Protector.
Something to contemplate.
indeed :) Tashi Delek
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I am FULLY in agreement with you there. FULLY. To me, it has no good qualities either. But i completely trust my Protector that all this happened for a reason, otherwise wouldn't he as a Dharma Protector who clears all our obstacles do so swiftly, especially as it is against his own practice. As he has not, i believe he has a plan in mind. Otherwise i have no faith in my Protector.
I believe that WSS, with the new book, is the plan.
Dorje Shugden is not God. He cannot override our karma. It seems that some people are waiting for 'divine intervention', as if if it were the case the Dorje Shugden didn't want the ban it would just stop. Things don't work like that. As Tsongkhapa said, we are tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release. Dorje Shugden is taking action in the form of the WSS to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama's speech. If he really was like the being in the 'Yellow Book' that anti-Shugden people cling to, he would simply kill the Dalai Lama and that would be the end of the problem, but he's not like that.
Those who are actively opposing the Dalai Lama are creating the great fortunate karma of protecting Je Tsongkhapa's tradition. For that, I'm grateful. It can be the only good thing that's come out of this sorry political mess, but of course it would be better if it didn't happen at all.
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Hi WisdomBeing
I would like to clarify my point above. Sorry, my writing is clunky and I should be careful to be more clear.
When I said 'it is just the way things are' I in no way meant that my attitude was to accept quietly. That is not a good attitude. The Tibetans that I spoke of above, do not have this attitude and are very appreciative of the WSS and its actions- they are part of the WSS!
And Dorje Shugden did not create the ban. As we are agreed, the ban has no good qualities. So it is impossible for Dorje Shugden to have created the ban. Besides, from a Buddhist perspective, as Lineageholder says above, that really does not make sense. Dorje Shugden is not God, not a Prime Mover, he is not operating the universe from above and moving us around like pawns within it according to a Divine Plan.
Our collective negative karma brought about the ban,- it is due to negative actions we have created in the past that we are a hair's breadth away from losing this precious lineage. This is a negative karma almost too horrible to contemplate. That is the reason all this happened - past negative actions.
We all know that the ban has lead to the decrease of Dorje Shugden practitioners. I fully believe that it is the actions of the WSS that has greatly slowed this decrease. By standing up to the ban and NOT ACCEPTING it, the WSS has in effect created a powerful refuge in the minds of practitioners worldwide, giving them courage and faith in their practice, and realizing that they are not alone. This, is certainly through the blessings of Dorje Shugden. By relying on Dorje Shugden, the WSS is in effect our Dharma Protector at work.
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i would like to ask anyone still clinging to the bizarre notion that the Dalai Lama is in fact Dorje Shugden in disguise, or is at least working through Dorje Shugden's blessings to create this schism in order to spread Dharma farther:
if you think the Buddhas really can and do act in such ways, why then don't they simply kill everyone and transfer all our continua to a Pure Land?
absurd? no more so than your idea, imho.
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i would like to ask anyone still clinging to the bizarre notion that the Dalai Lama is in fact Dorje Shugden in disguise, or is at least working through Dorje Shugden's blessings to create this schism in order to spread Dharma farther:
if you think the Buddhas really can and do act in such ways, why then don't they simply kill everyone and transfer all our continua to a Pure Land?
absurd? no more so than your idea, imho.
Ra lotsawa did that with a bunch of tantric practitioners. It is widely believed that Songtsen Gampo emanated 2 armies and have them fight each other to impress the Tibetans, then absorbed his emanations in order to tame the Tibetans. Marpa tortured Milarepa. Tilopa asking Naropa to steal, molest and jump off a cliff. So what's new? I dont find that idea absurd. The Dalai Lama has leaked out subtle signs that he is still on Dorje Shugden's side, just that due to circumstance he had to say what he did. Trijang Rinpoche, the previous one has already said that in future there will be a conflict and when that happens, one should not promote Dorje Shugden and despise Dalai Lama, nor promote Dalai Lama and despise Dorje Shugden. the message cannot be any clearer on how and what we should do. Even the current Trijang Rinpoche is urging everyone to not hate the Dalai Lama but to support him all the way (except with giving up Dorje Shugden). Dorje Shugden in a trance also said the exact same thing? So why would we want to challenge our own lineage Guru and the protector that we propitiate if we do not want to follow their advice?
Results speak for themselves. How many people out there know about Dorje Shugden as opposed to before the ban? Why is everyone talking about him now due to the ban? Although I am aware how much hurt and pain it has caused for Dorje Shugden practitioners all over, nothing is ever a good reason to hate anyone and to have hatred towards anyone, even if he is the Dalai Lama who started the ban. If you develop blind hatred for him, where is the result of your Dharma practice?
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Ensapa, it is interesting for you to resurrect this thread. The argument still continues with regard to the Dalai Lama’s role in this whole tableau. Of course there are Dorje Shugden practitioners who refuse to believe that the Dalai Lama is acting from a pure motivation. This is because they do not see him as Chenrezig. For example, your references to Marpa and Tilopa are good comparisons because if people do not believe that Marpa and Tilopa are attained beings then they would think negatively about them. Likewise, if you do not think that the Dalai Lama is an attained being, you would think badly about them. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, I would rather trust someone much higher than myself – I would trust what the great Trijang Rinpoche said and not lose faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden.
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Ensapa, it is interesting for you to resurrect this thread. The argument still continues with regard to the Dalai Lama’s role in this whole tableau. Of course there are Dorje Shugden practitioners who refuse to believe that the Dalai Lama is acting from a pure motivation. This is because they do not see him as Chenrezig. For example, your references to Marpa and Tilopa are good comparisons because if people do not believe that Marpa and Tilopa are attained beings then they would think negatively about them. Likewise, if you do not think that the Dalai Lama is an attained being, you would think badly about them. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, I would rather trust someone much higher than myself – I would trust what the great Trijang Rinpoche said and not lose faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden.
I resurrected this thread because i felt that it would be interesting to have the 'last say', not really to have the last say but to actually point out some facts and also to make things a bit clearer on the whole situation. The people who wrote those posts have long left the forum -- but their views and writings remain and perhaps, i could say something about them for the next person who comes along and reads it. It could help people look at something from a different point of view, different than what they would normally like to believe. Sometimes the view that we love to stick to the most would also be the most lethal to our spiritual progress, and as such, we should really see and re-examine our point of view sometimes and I happen to have logic and information that kinda conquers the point made by this person.
What I find the most interesting is as the previous Trijang Rinpoche had mentioned about what to do during these times, and that the protector himself has mentioned many times in trance to always support the Dalai Lama, why would people still choose to go against it or pretend to not understand? Not believing in the oracle is understandable, but ignoring Trijang Rinpoche's very clear advice is...an interesting behavior. But in any case, I have made my point and what happens from here, would be up to the reader's point of view.