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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ensapa on February 04, 2012, 02:20:48 PM
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I am just wondering if Dorje Shugden can help people with broken samaya to repair them. Most Dharma protectors will require strong samaya before they will assist the practitioner, but what about Dorje Shugden? Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?
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Certainly! Any Dharma Protector will help repair samaya. The key is sincerity. If the student/disciple is sincere then any enlightened protector will help. However, the circumstances should be projected ie, there should be no conditions from the disciple. He cannot want such and such condition as that would not be sincere. The disciple should just surrender.
Dorje Shugden, being the protector of our time would definitely be helpful to beings of this time if we are sincere!
Just one question! If we are sincere, why not just show it by our efforts in Dharma? That is real Guru Devotion. That is samaya.
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Certainly! Any Dharma Protector will help repair samaya. The key is sincerity. If the student/disciple is sincere then any enlightened protector will help. However, the circumstances should be projected ie, there should be no conditions from the disciple. He cannot want such and such condition as that would not be sincere. The disciple should just surrender.
Dorje Shugden, being the protector of our time would definitely be helpful to beings of this time if we are sincere!
Just one question! If we are sincere, why not just show it by our efforts in Dharma? That is real Guru Devotion. That is samaya.
This is excellent writing. Sincerity is the key. Just show it in our efforts in dharma. It's like when you break the law and you do community work to make up to society for the damage you did. Just do dharma work and that is your practice. :)
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I am just wondering if Dorje Shugden can help people with broken samaya to repair them. Most Dharma protectors will require strong samaya before they will assist the practitioner, but what about Dorje Shugden? Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?
This is quite entertaining in a way. You break the samaya, and you throw it back to Shugden to 'help' you repair. If you can break it then you can repair it.
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This is what I read from Wikipedia, wrote by Patrul Rinpoche:
To repair samaya, a practitioner may restore mindfulness and awareness of sacred view; confess the violation to another practitioner that holds samaya, recite the one hundred syllable mantra (Vajrasattva mantra), or use other methods determined by their guru.
Guru shows us the guideline, Protector shows us his assistance, but we must walk the steps with our effort and sincerity. As long as we follow all instruction from our guru, we give it the best we can, even without the help of protector, a samaya will be repaired. But if we pray on Shugden to help repair our samaya, we will eventually developed a mind of dependency, and will start to wish for Shugden’s help whenever our samaya is broken, and of course with this mentality in mind, our samaya will definitely break again.
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What if the practitioner due to his or her heavy karma finds even following the Guru's instruction difficult, or is unable to do to completion even if the practitioner gives it all to complete the given tasks? Can any Dharma protector or Dorje Shugden help in such situations?
No it is not throwing back to anyone to repair, but to find a way to repair it and getting assistance to do so. Some people have heavy karma due to whatever they have done in their past which makes it very difficult for them to get their Guru's instructions right, and they definitely need help to overcome this. I am thinking of recommending Dorje Shugden to someone who has broke their promise to the Guru and has ran away and has since even gave up Buddhism, but she went into a new age sort of thing to see if Dorje Shugden would help or if it is advisable to connect her to Dorje Shugden.
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Defintiely Dorje Shugden can help repair samaya? He is an Enlightened Being, but do we have the merits to receive his help?
When we have broken samaya, it shows that our faith and trust in our Guru is not strong and stable. It is our negative mind that perceives our Guru is wrong that we run away.
I agree with what Carpenter says, "Guru shows us the guideline, Protector shows us his assistance, but we must walk the steps with our effort and sincerity. As long as we follow all instruction from our guru, we give it the best we can, even without the help of protector, a samaya will be repaired. But if we pray on Shugden to help repair our samaya, we will eventually developed a mind of dependency, and will start to wish for Shugden’s help whenever our samaya is broken, and of course with this mentality in mind, our samaya will definitely break again." So if we keep having negative thoughts we will continue breaking our samaya no matter how many times Dorje Shugden help us.
"Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?" If these people are sincere enough they would not have broken their samaya. They will instead follow their Guru's instructions, be sincere and do dharma work with great effort and integrity.
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Ensapa, If you watch the videos of oracles taking trance, Kache Marpo Dorje Shugden's minister keeps on wiping his face, as his vision keeps getting obscured by people's negativity and karma. Hence it takes two to tango, hope you get what I mean.
If you have a chance to do dharma work, don't lose your chance, everyone makes mistake, but how we deal with it shows our spiritual maturity and how much we value the buddha dharma. No one in the spiritual path can be free of making mistakes.
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Dear Ensapa
You are posing a very good question. Actually, broken samaya with one's Lama, no matter how severe is a form of bad karma. Just like other bad karma, it needs to be purified with the four opponent powers (the power of regret, the power of reliance, the power of antidote, and the power of promise). For example: one can generate sincere regret for offending the Lama and thus stopping the negative karma from increasing. Once applying the power of regret, that person can ask sincere forgiveness to the Lama, and the Lama can give him/ her further instruction.
I think the role of DS as a Dharma Protector who has everyone's best interests at heart, can open up a condition for that practitioner to generate sincere regrets such as for example bumping her into a situation that reminded her of the Guru's kindness and thus helping him/ her to develop the wish to restore her broken samaya with the Guru.
Hopefully I answer your question ;)
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If we have really broken our samaya with our Guru,what important is we realize it early and transform before it too late..
I think Lord Shugden will provide a conducive condition for us to repair of our samaya provided our motivation is correct in the sense that we really regretted with our action and learn from it. Follow strictly our Guru instruction and complete it with no mistake. This shows our devotion with sincerity.
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Actually, there's a catch 22 situation here, now that I really think about this:
For Dorje Shugden to help/assist us, we need to have clean samaya with our Guru. If we break our samaya, it is said that we will be in Dorje Shugden's blind spot as Trijang Rinpoche says it is like putting a blindfold over the protector's eyes; he wants to help us, but he cannot find us.
But for some people who have really heavy broken samaya to the point where they are unable to even able to repair their samaya directly, they would need assistance from the Dharma protector. So if they do not have help from Dorje Shugden or a Dharma protector, how would they ever be able to repair their samaya?
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I think the answer to this question can be found in the text of the fulfillment ritual (kangso) of the Protector Dorje Shudgen:
HUM!
O Venerable Lozang Dragpa, peaceful and wrathful Manjushri
Root and lineage gurus and host of deities,
And especially Dharmapala, Mighty Vajra (aka Dorje Shudgen)
Please listen to me with great compassion!
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......
Torn asunder the limits of the pratimoksha vows,
Received before the eyes of the abbots, masters, and sangha,
Transgressed the precepts of bodhichitta,
Vows taken before the eyes of the Guru, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas,
Thrown away the close bonds and bowed commitments received
Which were witnessed by the Guru and the deities of the mandala (aka samaya, tantric vows)
The whole mass of such proscribed and naturally evil sins, downfalls, and faults,
I confess from the heart, quickly cleanse them please!
Hope this helps
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In general, if we're skillful and mindful, we can combine the four opponent powers of purification practice in conjunction with the emptiness of the 3 spheres with our entire day as well as particular virtuous actions throughout the day. When we do purification practices it is important to activate these opponent powers.
Kangso is a sort of self-initiation in relation to Dharma Protectors. ‘Kang’ means 'fulfilling', and ‘so’ means 'repairing'.
The sections of confession and offering the fulfilling substances are the most important parts of the Kangso. With confession we call upon the three vajras - Vairochana, Amitabha, and Akshobya to the space before us. In particular, this means they are stacked above the Protector/s and their retinue. At the hearts of the three vajras is the 100-syllable mantra of Vajrasattva. The mantra can be broken into sections - after a portion of reciting the mantra white nectar descends from Vairochana into the holy beings and ourself etc cleansing/purifying negative actions of body, especially those in relation to our samaya with the Guru-Protector. Then the red and blue nectars for speech and mind in the same way. This is the 'so' part of Kangso and is like self-initiation.
We are confessing our broken samayas. It is crucial to make sure the 4 opponent powers are alive for you in this for it to have the greatest impact. So, don't forget to conclude this section with a promise or strong determination to keep particular samaras...be skillful with what you commit to.
In the 'kang' section of Kangso, we are offering substances that fulfill our commitments to the Protectors. This is not different from the section in Lama Chopa when we offer our spiritual practice in the aspect of substances. It is important at this point in the sadhana to really feel that your spiritual practice and commitments are appearing as these substances. And remember, the special meaning of wrathful offerings is that because the holy beings experience uncontaminated great bliss when delighting in these offerings, we ourselves are creating the cause to transform the most wretched and horrific aspects of our samsara (our contaminated aggregates) into the experience of uncontaminated great bliss.
There are different degrees of help that we receive from the Protectors, and in a way this goes for all the holy beings. The purity of our samaya, the stronger our concentration, the power of our correct intentions such as renunciation and bodhichitta, the strength of our wisdom realizing emptiness, the power of our divine pride and clear appearance - the quality of all these things determines the power of our practice, of what karma will ripen, of how quickly realizations will ripen, of how much the holy beings can help us, and especially to what degree the Protectors can assist us (because they have special oaths regarding this).
Dorje Shugden helps everyone, and the more directly he is propitiated and the more qualified the disciple, the more powerfully he will manifest the power. His real samaya purification is the transformation of your mind into the living lineage through blessings. Ultimately, the most special help you will receive is the union of your mind with Dorje Shugden's mind of enlightened lineage.
It is important to keep our commitments to the best of our ability. If we are always breaking things that are definitely within our capacity to keep all the while we keep propitiating the Protectors, what nonsense. We need to not have this idea that 'its ok to break this commitment again because I can just purify the mistake'....that is missing the point of purification altogether. If we really appreciated the serious predicament we're in, we would be alot more careful, especially when it comes to propitiating the Protectors for their help.
A brief note on tantric samaya: I once heard someone say that certain tantric commitments only apply when you're a certain level practitioner. O really? This incorrect. If we take the vows and commitments of tantra, we are meant to keep all of them. Why? Because the purer our discipline, the purer our mind, the purer our realization, the more quickly we will approach the highest realizations. Even though Masters such as Drubchen Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche have said to try our best, this isn't saying it's ok to break samaya. Of course it is impossible to keep everything perfectly until we are a perfect Buddha, but we must identify within our own mind how our self-cherishing uses this advice as an excuse to break samaya, especially samaya we are capable of keeping. For example, even if we are not ready to rely upon an action mudra, we still need to strive to keep the vows related to such a practice as they apply to reliance on the wisdom mudra as well. Yes, we need to keep the intention to maintain samaya, but this means our intention is to actively strive to keep them to the best of our ability and to keep refining our ability. Otherwise, our laziness gets the best of us, the vibration of our realizations and abilities do not increase, and then suddenly its time to die.
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I am aware about that part of the sadhana, but what I am wondering now is that if Dorje Shugden will really help someone who has already broken their samaya, as it is said that he cannot even see the person who requests his help, so how can he help that person? Or that to do the kangsol, it is okay if the protector was not here or if the samaya is so damaged that the Guru withdraws the practice from that person? I am just trying to make sense here of how the Dharma protector can help.
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I understand, and was responding to the subject heading. Of course he can help repair samaya. Samaya is repaired through the dependent-related actions of the practitioner and the Guru working together. It seems you are investigating how it is that the Protector can help in relation to different degrees of broken samaya, for there are certainly different degrees of how powerful an action is. Because Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, of course he is happy to help any practitioner with a sincere regret and sincere intention to rectify the broken samaya. But the degree to which the Protector can help will obviously depend on the extent of the damage, and how long it takes to repair it will also be affected. Whether or not the negative actions are repeated or one is able to maintain discipline and so forth.
The reality is we will break samaya constantly, and this will diminish in many different ways as we become more familiar with virtuous minds. Even if the Lama has overtly cut connection with a disciple (which has happened) due to broken samaya, it does not mean that the Lama no longer has compassion for them, but the actions were so heavy that this is what resulted. Everything can be purified, but how powerful that purification is depends entirely on the strength of the practitioners opponent powers and their ability to avoid the same negative actions.
We do know from certain stories that certain actions have huge ramifications that effect how long it will take a practitioner to attain certain realizations despite their strong effort, such as Je Rechungpa going against Je Milarepa's advice, or Je Marpa prostrating to Hevajra instead of his Guru Naropa. Je Rechungpa was unable to attain enlightenment in that life, and Je Marpa's son Darma Dode had an untimely death that was the demise of the lineage of Transference of Consciousness to another body.
Ensapa, in short, my understanding is that how much the Protectors can help depends entirely on the efforts of the practitioner to clean up their act, remain this way mostly, and only increase their ability to maintain samaya.
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In one of his oral commentaries on Dorje Shugden practice, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche explains that there are many different beautiful things in the world and that we can offer these to the Protector with the intention of restoring broken samaya, and that such an offering is called an 'offering of fulfilling substances'.
In commenting on the section where we recite "Now is the time to show clearly your versatile strength..", he says that because we are keeping the heart commitments we have confidence in saying this, because we are doing things correctly; that if we never do anything correctly how can we say "Now is the time.."; that this is unsuitable!
He says we will make mistakes due to our delusions, but that we can restore our broken samaya through making these offerings of fulfilling substances; that it is important to maintain our commitments realizing that this is the best method for receiving Dorje Shugdan's protection, blessing, and special care.
But again, if we are always making the same mistakes thinking 'O I can just purify so it is ok', we are missing the point about purification practice and clearly have not established the power of determination.
Ensapa, you wrote:
"Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?"
- The degree he can help depends on the power of purity from the disciples side.
- There are many practitioners around the world constantly making mistakes, yet the Protector continuously helps those who make sincere effort to rectify the situation.
- So yes, in my personal experience of making constant mistakes, there are many clear indications throughout the years that he is always with me like the shadow of my body. Many people have this experience, so best not to worry about whether or not he can help and focus that energy on perfecting samaya.
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Also, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche also explains that if we have broken our commitments to the Protector, we can first make offerings, and as part of even the concise sadhana, we can recite many times the section that says:
"May I fulfill the heart commitment and restore my broken commitments".
Such beautiful advice for restoring every day rather than waiting until the Protector days when we do Kangso, or waiting until we ourself perform a Kangso which though it may be quite often, it is not as often as the daily condensed practice, not to mention, we don't have to only recite this in the context of a sadhana recitation but can do so whenever we make mistakes.
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In one of his oral commentaries on Dorje Shugden practice, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche explains that there are many different beautiful things in the world and that we can offer these to the Protector with the intention of restoring broken samaya, and that such an offering is called an 'offering of fulfilling substances'.
In commenting on the section where we recite "Now is the time to show clearly your versatile strength..", he says that because we are keeping the heart commitments we have confidence in saying this, because we are doing things correctly; that if we never do anything correctly how can we say "Now is the time.."; that this is unsuitable!
He says we will make mistakes due to our delusions, but that we can restore our broken samaya through making these offerings of fulfilling substances; that it is important to maintain our commitments realizing that this is the best method for receiving Dorje Shugdan's protection, blessing, and special care.
But again, if we are always making the same mistakes thinking 'O I can just purify so it is ok', we are missing the point about purification practice and clearly have not established the power of determination.
Ensapa, you wrote:
"Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?"
- The degree he can help depends on the power of purity from the disciples side.
- There are many practitioners around the world constantly making mistakes, yet the Protector continuously helps those who make sincere effort to rectify the situation.
- So yes, in my personal experience of making constant mistakes, there are many clear indications throughout the years that he is always with me like the shadow of my body. Many people have this experience, so best not to worry about whether or not he can help and focus that energy on perfecting samaya.
I've really learnt quite a bit from the dialogue that is going on here.... thanks a lot for patience and effort in asking and explaining. It has added to my understanding about kangso and the significance of it. Yes Psylotipitaka, it is no point repairing any samaya if one is not conscientious of not repeating the same mistakes again and put in the necessary efforts to prevent it from happening and you said as bolded above... it is basically very simple true logic. Indeed the protector and Guru is one... if you have disturb your Guru's mind, you would have disturb the protector's mind. If your Guru's mind is at peace, happy with you, so will the protector. Never the less both Guru and Protector is always I believe ready to forgive but how many times can the Guru accept "broken promises"... even if the Guru does accept, due to his compassionate nature, how many time can you/I as the practitioner accept ourselves for breaking samaya/promises???
I guess the real question is are we, you, me, serious about it... not breaking samaya and what if we are serious but due to much heavy negative karma, one keeps slipping unintentionally, hence isn't it better then for the practitioner to retreat himself/herself and engage in purification practices before returning back again? Would that be more appropriate?
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My experience is that in general they will continue to repeat their instructions over and over again until we get it, but with regards to specific samaya, especially if we have a close relationship with the human emanation of our Guru, it is critical to have a discussion with our Lama about it. It might be that they recommend distancing each others proximity and involvement in order for the disciple to not only purify but to come to clear conclusions and decisions about the trajectory of their behavior. Sometimes the distance may naturally arise and the disciple only returns many years later to a crossroads where they have repaired things inside enough to maintain a decision that was previously broken on a repeated basis. When they reach that plateau and make the decision, it is very important to follow thru. With knowledge and commitments comes responsibility, and the greater the knowledge or more powerful the commitment, the greater the responsibility, and likewise the greater the fall if it is broken once again. That is why it is important to be careful and skillful with our promises. Making determinations to try our best is a very minimum; to keep the intention, for if we abandon the intention to keep the samaya, then it is truly broken!
We definitely need to learn to forgive ourselves, but to embrace our shortcomings while recognizing that we are not our delusions, that we do not have faults but that we have delusions in our continuum and that these have faults. Unfortunately, if we keep making promises or determinations and do not establish the supports to maintain these, not only will we keep falling but we will establish a very strong tendency to repeat the downfall. Therefore, as a basic intention, we need to keep the intention to keep all our samaya. On that basis if we skillfully make determinations that are within our capacity, then strive with great effort in the lamrim, we will be less likely to break it.
For example, I have certain habits that are very detrimental to fulfilling my bodhichitta; that take me in the opposite direction. In the past I would commit for a week at a time but I even broke this. So, I make special promises every single day during a certain sadhana that "from now until my next session of this sadhana, I will not...." Not only have I found this more manageable, but it has enabled me to keep the promise and this has given me encouragement. It has also had a profound impact on my mind, my intentions, my capacity to keep certain important samaya. So being skillful is important.
Though keeping the intention is the foundation, it must not become an excuse for not keeping certain commitments. We'd say shit like "Oh well it isn't my capacity so...". That is true to an extent, but there are certainly things we can keep that we just get lazy with!!
If we definitely believed in karma and future lives; that the realizations were real, and that we are a good person worthy of those attainments, the meaning of saying we will keep the vows and commitments even at the cost of our life takes on a new meaning for us within our own consciousness.
Meditating excessively on the faults of samsara is very important, but it is equally encouraging to meditate excessively on the results of our practice. In particular, if we are moved by the details of commentaries on the 6 stages of completion stage (isolated body and so forth) we will be blown away by what's in store for us if we really apply ourselves. Sometimes just by reading the precise scientific technology those subjects, such as how to attain the deathless vajra body, our mind becomes elevated to a point where we look at some of our actions and daily concerns and go "what the hell am I putting so much effort into all this stuff for?" It doesn't mean we don't engage our world, but our views and intentions begin to change and our priorities change so that we at least include certain trainings every day.
Sorry to go on and on about that, my intent is to show that great effort in actual meditation as frequently as possible is the real key to keeping samaya. We need to taste the realizations and insights in meditation non-conceptually for them to have the deepest impact, but like I said, even conceptual determinations over and over again will begin the process of real transformation. With familiarity we can accomplish anything...its what we pay the most attention to that is our problem!
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Thanks psylotripitaka for ur sharing of your own experiences.... Agree with the below...
In the past I would commit for a week at a time but I even broke this. So, I make special promises every single day during a certain sadhana that "from now until my next session of this sadhana, I will not...." Not only have I found this more manageable, but it has enabled me to keep the promise and this has given me encouragement. It has also had a profound impact on my mind, my intentions, my capacity to keep certain important samaya. So being skillful is important.
Though keeping the intention is the foundation, it must not become an excuse for not keeping certain commitments. We'd say shit like "Oh well it isn't my capacity so...". That is true to an extent, but there are certainly things we can keep that we just get lazy with!!
But would you not say that the basis of our positive or negative mindset and actions based on the merits we have that would create the right causes and conditions for us to think and act in Dharma or in proper conduct? Understand what you are saying, but if a person does not have sufficient merit/Dharma would it not be difficult for the person to even comprehend what they have done i.e. if it is positive or negative and having wrong views about their good/bad situation is based on their merits.
I mean there are billions of people out there who engages in non-virtuous actions daily yet they have clue or comprehension that their actions creates more suffering for them in the future. And then there are those who are in Dharma who also creates negative actions daily not realising it also. In fact this could be far more detrimental then those not in Dharma, because those in Dharma may or suppose to know the difference and this could actually lead them to create demerits faster then an ordinary person out there who does not know Dharma.
From many teachings I have heard... it is basically based on the practitioners collection of merits and purification, for this is the fuel that actually supports and helps them to think or rather contemplate/meditate correctly. The collection of merits would stem from the beginning the motivation one sets daily, then the action and then the dedication at the end of it all. So if a person in Dharma creates demerits instead of merits which pushes them away or further from the Dharma, an obstacle that is self created of course, with this realisation would it not be best for the person to get in to purification practices... (3 of the 5 prelims)? That would be a start, no?
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I think people must understand what broken samaya is all about. Samaya is a Sanskrit word to denote the sacred bond in which we have with our Lama when we take refuge, receive any vows, oral transmissions, initiations and so forth. This sacred bond when we keep our commitments, study and practice the Dharma and we follow the instructions given by our Lama. When we break this sacred bond, we commit grave negative karma, which is far worse that ordinary misdeeds that we normally commit.
Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector and relying him can help us with our spiritual practice but for him to help us effectively requires a clean and unbroken samaya. Otherwise, Dorje Shugden will have to face even more obstacles than normal to assist us. Sometimes, the negative karma is so heavy that it overwhelms Dorje Shugden and renders him ineffective in coming to our aid.
Therefore, when we have broken our samaya, it is best to confess our misdeeds and seek to remedy the action with actions that are opposite from the misdeed. Also, we need to rely on a special yidam that has arisen especially to purify the heavy misdeeds of broken samaya. That specially yidam is called Damtsig Dorje or Samayavajra.
http://www.artoflegendindia.com/images/detailed/pbcb177_lord_buddha_hand.jpg (http://www.artoflegendindia.com/images/detailed/pbcb177_lord_buddha_hand.jpg)
This deity belongs to the mandala of Guhyasamaja tantra, the “secret Assembly” – the gathering of 32 deities. This particular practice purifies all transgressions in the relationship with one’s spiritual guide (broken samaya).
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Ensapa, in short, my understanding is that how much the Protectors can help depends entirely on the efforts of the practitioner to clean up their act, remain this way mostly, and only increase their ability to maintain samaya.
This is powerful - yes, it is entirely up to the efforts of the practitioner. If the Dharma protectors and Buddhas alone could repair our samaya, then wouldn't they have done so already? It cannot be that they are fully compassionate beings but would allow us to continue suffering the effects of broken samaya - if they could do something to remove all our negative karma completely, they would have. The fact that so many of us are still suffering, still making the same stupid mistakes and still creating negative karma shows clearly that we are creating our own destinies.
What the Dharma protectors can do in relations to samaya, and through our sincere propitiation to them, is to help keep our negative karmas at bay for a certain time, and to bring about more positive conditions for us. Then, during this "grace period" we are able to practice to purify the negative karma of broken samaya and accumulate merit to continue and sustain on the path. This does not mean that the Dharma Protectors remove or destroy our negative karma. The karma is still there, but they can help us to prevent it from ripening so soon, so that we have time to purify it and activate positive karmic imprints instead. Eventually, we still have to practice and accumulate merit so as to remove the negative karma ourselves.
When this happens - as we purify and accumulate virtue - then our broken samaya is repaired. The dharma protector provides the conditions for us to engage in the practices of these two powerful antidotes but ultimately, we are the ones who have to repair the samaya ourselves.
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Of course Shugden cannot repair samaya as he was the cause of the biggest samaya break on the face of Buddhism in the 21st century!!! If he can repair samaya then Mara can too! :) ;D
Shugden is like the poster boy of broken samaya! :-[
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Of course Shugden cannot repair samaya as he was the cause of the biggest samaya break on the face of Buddhism in the 21st century!!! If he can repair samaya then Mara can too! :) ;D
Shugden is like the poster boy of broken samaya! :-[
Hmm I wonder what proof do you have to back up that claim of yours. I would like to see it.
In what way does Dorje Shugden break samaya? please kindly explain :)
If you cant, it would be an accusation and it would mean that well...thats a very unbuddhistic thing to do...to accuse others of something that they are not.
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Tenzin Gyatso, it is important to get an objective perspective on the controversy, looking at it from the outside without an emotionally charged interest in either party. Such perspective sees that actions speak for themselves. I stepped back and had a good look, and saw how easy it is for people to get so emotionally fired up they miss he point completely.
Though there are many facets to the controversy, the fact of the matter is, the main and most important thing to acknowledge is it boils down to very well-documented religious and human rights abuses. It is so strange to me how a person can be so obsessed with a popular personality that they refuse to see how what is actually going on is totally inappropriate, destructive, and disrespectful. When we look at the situation objectively, here is what you typically see:
One group of people(Group A) - through coercion, death threats, economic threats, shrine and home destruction, ostracism and so forth - forcing another group of people(Group B) to stop their religious practices and give up their human rights.
Group B peacefully communicates the damage being done and requests the forced ban to be lifted; they peacefully and repeatedly request open dialogue and clarification; the peacefully demonstrate to encourage Group A to stop their abusive and destructive campaign; they provide excessive valid logical reasons for their religious views and so forth.
Group A disregards all these things, and quite simply engages in actions that clearly contradict the BuddhaDharma; contradict basic human and religious rights; contradict common sense.
If some popular teacher came along and told Christians they had to stop believing in Christ and gave all sorts of ridiculous superstitious reasons why they have to do this and constantly contradicted themselves in the process, then forced the ban through various illegal and harmful actions, only someone who was not in their right mind would think this is ok. I mean Jeezus, this isn't rocket science people.
I can understand why some people (out of fear of the extensive negative repercussions of not doing so) would tow the party line and go along with the ban. However, to those free thinkers who are not necessarily impacted directly by the negative consequences to ones life of not abandoning their religious right, people all over the world with objective common sense are forced to ask the question - wtf is wrong with these people?
So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?
I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?
The controversy really isn't about Dorje Shugden after all, it's about Freedom vs. a Destruction of Freedom that has destroyed the reputation of Buddhadharma and the faith and lives of many.
Seriously Tenzin Gyatso, why is it so hard for Buddhists to be kind? I know, it sounds fucking crazy right!
It doesn't have to be like this.
With Much Sincere Love,
psylotripitaka
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Tenzin Gyatso, it is important to get an objective perspective on the controversy, looking at it from the outside without an emotionally charged interest in either party. Such perspective sees that actions speak for themselves. I stepped back and had a good look, and saw how easy it is for people to get so emotionally fired up they miss he point completely.
Though there are many facets to the controversy, the fact of the matter is, the main and most important thing to acknowledge is it boils down to very well-documented religious and human rights abuses. It is so strange to me how a person can be so obsessed with a popular personality that they refuse to see how what is actually going on is totally inappropriate, destructive, and disrespectful. When we look at the situation objectively, here is what you typically see:
One group of people(Group A) - through coercion, death threats, economic threats, shrine and home destruction, ostracism and so forth - forcing another group of people(Group B) to stop their religious practices and give up their human rights.
Group B peacefully communicates the damage being done and requests the forced ban to be lifted; they peacefully and repeatedly request open dialogue and clarification; the peacefully demonstrate to encourage Group A to stop their abusive and destructive campaign; they provide excessive valid logical reasons for their religious views and so forth.
Group A disregards all these things, and quite simply engages in actions that clearly contradict the BuddhaDharma; contradict basic human and religious rights; contradict common sense.
If some popular teacher came along and told Christians they had to stop believing in Christ and gave all sorts of ridiculous superstitious reasons why they have to do this and constantly contradicted themselves in the process, then forced the ban through various illegal and harmful actions, only someone who was not in their right mind would think this is ok. I mean Jeezus, this isn't rocket science people.
I can understand why some people (out of fear of the extensive negative repercussions of not doing so) would tow the party line and go along with the ban. However, to those free thinkers who are not necessarily impacted directly by the negative consequences to ones life of not abandoning their religious right, people all over the world with objective common sense are forced to ask the question - wtf is wrong with these people?
So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?
I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?
The controversy really isn't about Dorje Shugden after all, it's about Freedom vs. a Destruction of Freedom that has destroyed the reputation of Buddhadharma and the faith and lives of many.
Seriously Tenzin Gyatso, why is it so hard for Buddhists to be kind? I know, it sounds fucking crazy right!
It doesn't have to be like this.
With Much Sincere Love,
psylotripitaka
Thank you so much psylotripitaka, your words are more or less the exact ones that I would want to point out although I was not able to at the point of writing for the previous post. The ban on Dorje Shugden is not really about Dorje Shugden himself, but about how so called Buddhists have degenerated to these days. It is about Buddhists who would do something that is clearly wrong even from a basic, humanistic point of view in order to reaffirm their faith. The Tibetans in Dharamsala who are against Dorje Shugden and the westerners who are against Dorje Shugden has one thing in common: both parties pretty much would do things that are the opposite of being Buddhist such as discriminating against another Buddhist, spreading fear and blind faith and turning others away from their spiritual path. My question is why? So I realized that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to separate the wheat from the chaff: the practicing Buddhist who embody Buddhist qualities from those who dont.
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If Dorje Shugden is not a Dharma Protector, how is it that he has protected the Dharma in many practitioners minds and they have gained Dharma realizations?
If Dorje Shugden can't repair samaya in the mind of a sincere practitioner striving to remove the 8 worldly concerns from their mind, how is it that practitioners have profound inner experience of their samaya being repaired by this holy Wisdom Buddha.
How does one come to the conclusion that facts aren't facts? That's so strange.
Practically speaking, if we have a strong intention to repair samaya and request holy beings to help make that happen, think about it. If I was a holy being and you asked me for help, you bet I'd be there for you. Even if my eyes were blindfolded by your broken samaya, I would still have you in mind and your sincere intention to repair it would take my blindfold off, and I would behold the most precious thing in the universe, your Buddhanature striving to be set free, and jewels from my mongoose would fill your mind with power, unbelievable power to accomplish freedom.
Time to clean house.
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Isnt broken samaya between oneself and one's Guru? I do not see how Dorje Shudgen can help repair samaya broken between a student and teacher. I would say perhaps Dorje Shugden can "prevent" it from happening by changing the course of events that may create the circumstances for such a chance to happen for the practitioner... but mending it should and can only come from the student themselves no?
Am I making any sense or am I merely babbling on here.. ;) Can someone help?
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No, you can definitely break samaya with a Dharma Protector. For example, the Palden Lhamo has certain samaya you make with her such as to not criticize the wind or perform negative actions towards crows/ravens, and it is explained that during the kangso you purify and restore broken samaya with her.
Likewise, in the Dorje Shugden kangso, the confession section says "All faults and transgressions against the body, speech, and mind of the five lineages and their retinues....are cleansed and purified."
In an earlier post in this thread I mention Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche's advice about restoring samaya with the Protector.
Essentially, there is a 50/50 kind of thing going on. The practitioner makes a sincere effort from their side to purify and restore, and the Guru-Protector manifests blessings for this to be successful. It is the same in Samayavajra, Vajrasattva and so forth.
What's really interesting to me is how can we really say we are putting in the other 50 in the equation when our opportunity, our knowledge, our virtuous intentions, and virtuous actions, and our practice and purification and restoration are all due to the kindness of the Guru. It is as if the Guru is doing everything!
The Protector isn't different from the Guru, but our samaya with the Protector presents a different context or aspect of our relationship with the Guru, and certain particular samaya is established, such as to maintain the heart commitments of the Protector, perhaps to do Protector practice every day, the kangso once a month and so forth.
For me, the conclusion is to rely upon Dorje Shugden to help me maintain samaya, purify and restore degenerate or broken samaya, and so forth with faith and confidence that it works. The results of this relationship are palpable.
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This is indeed interesting. Based on what I understand, the Buddhas and Protectors are compassionate. They do not "Punish", in fact it is karma and merits which we should be concerned about. The Protectors will provide conducive environments for us to gain merits and purify karma but if we lack the sincerity and correct motivation the samaya will always be corrupted.
The responsibility of repairing one's samaya lies in our hands and should not be "thrown back" onto the Buddhas, Protectors or the Guru. Because of our degenerated times and the lure of samsara, we must have clear and pure sincere motivation to keep our samaya clean. And if we break our samaya, we must want to repair. If we do not then no matter what the Protector does will have little benefit.
Thank you for the sharing here...
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The original intention of this thread is to find out on whether or not a powerful Dharma protector can purify Samaya. It's not as a "okay lets use Dorje Shugden as a one stop solution" thing. During this day and age, even practicing one sentence of the Dharma is already hard enough, let alone find a proper Guru that will actually train the students until they are proper vessels for tantra, and when such a Guru is found some people would find it hard to gain the 'favor' of the Guru. Consider this scenario: a person who is lucky enough at this time to find a Guru who is willing to train this person to be a suitable vessel for Tantra as opposed to just giving out initiations and refuge to plant blessings, but no matter what the person does, the Guru is not impressed or happy and the person is 'stuck' in a situation whereby the sangha offers little or no support at all. I have seen many people in this situation and after a while they burn out (probably because they lack merits) and abandon spirituality altogether. Some of them just need a direction or real support from someone who understands and I was wondering if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to show signs to these people to go to the right path.
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Well that really sums up your main intention of this thread Ensapa, thank you. I understand more what you were getting at now.
Would it be more accurate to ask if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to make the practitioner aware of the signs?
He is manifesting signs constantly, but the persons karma may heavily obscure them. This is likely what Trijang Dorjechang means by saying it is as if the Protector is blindfolded. Being omniscient, Dorje Shugden sees all. The extent Buddhas can help depends on our karma at the time, because there is a definite relationship between our minds and what appears to them. It is hard to say precisely to what extent a Buddha can control our karma i.e. what is appearing in our mind. Through blessings and the manipulation of events, I believe Dorje Shugden can alter what karma ripens for us, and in that way lead us in the direction of repairing samaya. Others have already written this here so I'll shut up now.
Thanks to everyone for making me dig deeper in my relationship with the Guru.
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Well that really sums up your main intention of this thread Ensapa, thank you. I understand more what you were getting at now.
Would it be more accurate to ask if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to make the practitioner aware of the signs?
He is manifesting signs constantly, but the persons karma may heavily obscure them. This is likely what Trijang Dorjechang means by saying it is as if the Protector is blindfolded. Being omniscient, Dorje Shugden sees all. The extent Buddhas can help depends on our karma at the time, because there is a definite relationship between our minds and what appears to them. It is hard to say precisely to what extent a Buddha can control our karma i.e. what is appearing in our mind. Through blessings and the manipulation of events, I believe Dorje Shugden can alter what karma ripens for us, and in that way lead us in the direction of repairing samaya. Others have already written this here so I'll shut up now.
Thanks to everyone for making me dig deeper in my relationship with the Guru.
Thanks for your reply. Your posts really does help us understand a lot on many things, especially on this one about Guru devotion, samaya and Dorje Shugden and now I understand the blindfold part. I think in the earlier part of this thread, some people have mistaken that i was asking this for myself and also that i wanted Dorje Shugden as a quick fix for things. As far as I understand, samaya is the bond of trust between disciple and the Guru. If the Guru lost his trust in a disciple, it would be very hard for the disciple to prove themselves back unless he or she knows exactly what to do. As you have replied, it would mean that the person who have broken the samaya must earnestly rely on Dorje Shugden and be very sincere about it, and be sensitive to the signs that Dorje Shugden has sent to them to repair their samaya. Thanks for helping me understand this :)
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If you want to repair samaya, why not follow the prescribed traditionally practices universally accepted by all schools of Tibetan Buddhism and masters without doubts:
1. Samaya Vajra
2. Confessions of Downfalls of 35 Buddhas
3. Vajrasattva
4. Heruka Vajrasattva
5. Prostrations
Combined with the four remedial powers. Why go to Shugden? Even if he was a dharma protector, why would you invoke a dharma protector to repair samaya? Doesn't make sense at all.
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Tenzin Gyatso, of course there are the practices you mention. But it appears you are not aware that all 4 schools also rely upon Dharma Protectors to help repair samaya, especially where the samaya is between the Protector and practitioner. The Masters explain this, and it is a very powerful practice.
The reason one might go to Dorje Shugden is the same one would choose to do any other practice, for example, due to feeling a special connection with that Buddha.
Do you rely on Kalarupa or Palden Lhamo? The samaya situation is the same in their sadhanas too.
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If you want to repair samaya, why not follow the prescribed traditionally practices universally accepted by all schools of Tibetan Buddhism and masters without doubts:
1. Samaya Vajra
2. Confessions of Downfalls of 35 Buddhas
3. Vajrasattva
4. Heruka Vajrasattva
5. Prostrations
Combined with the four remedial powers. Why go to Shugden? Even if he was a dharma protector, why would you invoke a dharma protector to repair samaya? Doesn't make sense at all.
In relations to the practices that you have mentioned (which of course works and is true and valid) the Dharma protector is also needed to clear obstacles that surmount us from doing purification practice. There are people who are too burdended with obstacles to the point where they are unable to do even the most basic purification practice at all but they have a strong connecting with the Dharmapala. Besides, Dorje Shugden's puja has a line that says that he will help purify broken samaya. In fact, all Dharma protectors have that function:
Tantric, base, fulfillment, commitment,
Favorite visual, and sang offerings,
Filling space, thus, may heart commitments
Be fulfilled, broken bonds be restored!
All our mistakes of thought or deed that
Trangress the great Dharmapala’s mind,
Confessed from the heart, purify us;
Like a mother, care for your children!
This is why I believe that Dorje Shugden can help repair samaya.
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Dear friend Tenzin Gyatso,
Seriously, I'm not picking on you or trying to be mean. I really do feel that many people here would honestly like to know your answers to the questions I asked you. So I would like to repeat them and ask you to please answer. Please don't just come along in this forum making derogatory off-the-cuff remarks without supporting your claims with valid logical reasons or engaging us in friendly dialogue and debate. It is important for us as an individual and a practitioner of Dharma to investigate why it is we believe what we believe and what valid reasons and experiences lead us to those conclusions. If we are not examining our mind, our beliefs, and actively trying to accomplish reversal, what are we doing. Here are the questions again:
"So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?
I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?" .....
I will add one more - What is your intention when you post writings in this forum?
We sincerely look forward to your honest reply.
Most respectfully yours,
psylotripitaka
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People keep using the term 'samaya' to specifically refer to the Guru-disciple bond. I would just like to point out that it is not simply referring to the bond established through us deciding to take a teacher as our Guru and the Guru accepting us as their student. That is of course the essence, but samaya refers also to the vows, commitments, and other spiritual promises that we make to the Guru, Yidam, or Protector.
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People keep using the term 'samaya' to specifically refer to the Guru-disciple bond. I would just like to point out that it is not simply referring to the bond established through us deciding to take a teacher as our Guru and the Guru accepting us as their student. That is of course the essence, but samaya refers also to the vows, commitments, and other spiritual promises that we make to the Guru, Yidam, or Protector.
Thanks for clarifying this and yes, what you have defined is entirely true. It is also the spiritual promises made to the spiritual community that we might have the fortune to be in; a samaya with our sangha (whether we are ordained in a monastery or we're practicing within a kind of lay sangha, like a dharma center).
So I think in the context of this question, the protector helps us to repair samaya at all levels by first and foremost clearing the immediate obstacles to a successful practice on all the levels of body, speech and mind. what a "successful practice" will mean of course differs from person to person, but when if done correctly, should mend samaya not just to the Guru but to everything else around him also - the community, the practices, vows and commitments we have received from him etc.
It is sometimes misunderstood that the protectors only help to clear immediate physical obstacles and this is perhaps why people think that Dorje Shugden is only a worldly protector to go to for wealth, health, relationships etc. But in reality, the real obstacles that he needs to remove are those that obstruct our spiritual path. (So in this case, if wealth will cause us to go further from our spiritual goals, we may not get the wealth we wish for. The protectors won't give us what will BECOME obstacles.) So, in removing the obstacles to our spiritual path, we are able to purify the negativities of broken samaya and simultaneously accrue the merit needed to support deeper practice and the mending of this samaya. It all connects in a very intricate way.
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Hi Beggar,
I've found this last post of yours incredibly helpful. Well said. Thank you.
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I fully agree with psylotripitaka. Beggar's explanation is very clear, simple and easy to understand yet profound. Thank you.
Hi Beggar,
I've found this last post of yours incredibly helpful. Well said. Thank you.
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Thanks for clarifying this and yes, what you have defined is entirely true. It is also the spiritual promises made to the spiritual community that we might have the fortune to be in; a samaya with our sangha (whether we are ordained in a monastery or we're practicing within a kind of lay sangha, like a dharma center).
So I think in the context of this question, the protector helps us to repair samaya at all levels by first and foremost clearing the immediate obstacles to a successful practice on all the levels of body, speech and mind. what a "successful practice" will mean of course differs from person to person, but when if done correctly, should mend samaya not just to the Guru but to everything else around him also - the community, the practices, vows and commitments we have received from him etc.
It is sometimes misunderstood that the protectors only help to clear immediate physical obstacles and this is perhaps why people think that Dorje Shugden is only a worldly protector to go to for wealth, health, relationships etc. But in reality, the real obstacles that he needs to remove are those that obstruct our spiritual path. (So in this case, if wealth will cause us to go further from our spiritual goals, we may not get the wealth we wish for. The protectors won't give us what will BECOME obstacles.) So, in removing the obstacles to our spiritual path, we are able to purify the negativities of broken samaya and simultaneously accrue the merit needed to support deeper practice and the mending of this samaya. It all connects in a very intricate way.
Some incidents that happened to a friend made me think about several new points that can be added to this...
In the cause of clearing obstacles and perhaps, can the protector create more obstacles for us that keeps stacking up more and more but we can pull through if we have a little bit more willpower to strengthen our resolve so that in future we can overcome them? Does the protector work in that way as well? Also, if someone has a great relationship with the Guru and his Dharma brothers and sisters, but plays dirty politics that only some people can perceive and cause some people outside of the circle to lose faith to the Guru, why would the protector allow this to happen?
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Samaya with our Guru is very often broken by our negativities such as insincerity, dishonesty and many more traits that we habituate sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly.
This article is extremely beneficial for us to learn how to repair our Samaya with our Guru. Being compassionate and loving, Dorje Shugden will definitely help us to repair but only if we are sincere and with integrity not repeat it over and over again.
Otherwise it will be a totally hopeless exercise to ask for help to repair broken samaya and then break it again and again.
If we have the merits to repair our samaya, then we must be sincere in our desire not to break it again.