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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tenzin Gyatso on July 04, 2012, 03:41:19 AM
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There is talk here in Dharamsala concerning Shar Ganden wishing to join back with Ganden Monastery.
Reasons according to the hot talk here:
1.They are not getting enough sponsorship so feeding the monks is getting difficult.
2.They are feeling alienated (their own creation) from family, friends and their teachers left behind in Ganden.
3.They feel there is no end to this conflict and no point in contradicting His Holiness Dalai Lama any further as they have gained nothing.
4.Has anyone heard? They are seeking audience with HHDL to apologize and seeking permission to rejoin Ganden Monastery. They are willing to swear against Shugden's practice. :)
It is good news. They will set a very good example to Shugden people all around the world.
Is this true though?
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1.They are not getting enough sponsorship so feeding the monks is getting difficult.
Wrong, actually they have grown faster than any other monastery in the area. Doubled is size in about 3 years....and the best is yet to come! :)
2.They are feeling alienated (their own creation) from family, friends and their teachers left behind in Ganden.
Some perhaps, but this is one big family with many supporters all over the globe.
3.They feel there is no end to this conflict and no point in contradicting His Holiness Dalai Lama any further as they have gained nothing.
Keeping samaya is 'gaining' much more than you may realize.
4.Has anyone heard? They are seeking audience with HHDL to apologize and seeking permission to rejoin Ganden Monastery. They are willing to swear against Shugden's practice.
Absolutely ridiculous!
It is good news. They will set a very good example to Shugden people all around the world.
Is this true though? Of course not....not sure where you get your information but maybe seems just wishful thinking. No matter, Shar Gaden is moving forward and gets stronger as the days go by. :)
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1.They are not getting enough sponsorship so feeding the monks is getting difficult.
Wrong, actually they have grown faster than any other monastery in the area. Doubled is size in about 3 years....and the best is yet to come! :)
2.They are feeling alienated (their own creation) from family, friends and their teachers left behind in Ganden.
Some perhaps, but this is one big family with many supporters all over the globe.
3.They feel there is no end to this conflict and no point in contradicting His Holiness Dalai Lama any further as they have gained nothing.
Keeping samaya is 'gaining' much more than you may realize.
4.Has anyone heard? They are seeking audience with HHDL to apologize and seeking permission to rejoin Ganden Monastery. They are willing to swear against Shugden's practice.
Absolutely ridiculous!
It is good news. They will set a very good example to Shugden people all around the world.
Is this true though? Of course not....not sure where you get your information but maybe seems just wishful thinking. No matter, Shar Gaden is moving forward and gets stronger as the days go by. :)
However, I think that Shar Gaden would unite with Gaden Shartse one day when the ban has been lifted and not before. There's no doubt about that because by then, it would be time to spread Dorje Shugden practice all over and they can begin with the monastic institutions first. When the time comes, all of Gelug would have to embrace Dorje Shugden.
I think the respective Abbots of the great Gelug monasteries are all praying for the time to come soon. No real Abbot would want to see the lineage being split apart and the monastic institutions fragmented. By then, Dorje Shugden practice and lineage would be so huge and extremely beneficial. It is after all the shared lineage amongst all Gelug monastic institutions and since it is apparent that Dorje Shugden is an important and crucial element in our lineage, the great monasteries must incorporate Dorje Shugden.
I think it would be important that people realize that the previous Dalai Lama, regent and emperor of China enthroned Dorje Shugden as the principle protector of the Gaden lineage. He arose specifically to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote about this in his commentary, Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors. When the ban gets lifted, it would be high time all Gelug recognize this and officially incorporate it in the monastic system. That's what i think and so, all Dorje Shugden monasteries that have broken away from their mother monasteries should join back with their mother monasteries so they can pass on the lineage teachings.
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Reasons according to the hot talk here:
1.They are not getting enough sponsorship so feeding the monks is getting difficult.'
Tenzin, your reason just shows how ignorant you guys to the actual situation is...
Just read an article in a Taiwanese blog who stayed in Garden monastery for some time, before the split. She/he reported that monks pratice DS was not giving the part they would have from public offering, simply because they 'not follow HHDL's advice, not because they pratice DS' according the Khensur Rinpoche. (Anyway this reasoning looks ...')
So monks practice DS already be treated as inferior group before the split and be punished by not having offering they should have as a member of the monastery, what is the point of going back if just for money...?
Be noted that this is an report by a anti-DS Taiwanese, she/he obviously don't know what it mean by 'fair'...
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Your news on Shar Ganden wanting to reunite with Ganden is definitely not true. This is because Shar Ganden has grown and expanded more since the split. There are more buildings being built to accommodate more monks and renovations being done to the Prayer Hall. I know of this is because a friend of mine went to for the Ordination of Domo Geshe Rinpoche saw this all for himself. The hospital has also been completed.
And with Domo Geshe Rinpoche being there, definitely more sponsorship will be coming into Shar Ganden.
I also agree with Big Uncle that one day both Shar Ganden and Ganden will merge again when the ban on Dorje Shugden is lifted. We shall wait and see whether your news are true or not. I doubt so.
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You must have been listening to a Liar Tenzin Gyatso. ???
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1.They are not getting enough sponsorship so feeding the monks is getting difficult.
Wrong, actually they have grown faster than any other monastery in the area. Doubled is size in about 3 years....and the best is yet to come! :)
2.They are feeling alienated (their own creation) from family, friends and their teachers left behind in Ganden.
Some perhaps, but this is one big family with many supporters all over the globe.
3.They feel there is no end to this conflict and no point in contradicting His Holiness Dalai Lama any further as they have gained nothing.
Keeping samaya is 'gaining' much more than you may realize.
4.Has anyone heard? They are seeking audience with HHDL to apologize and seeking permission to rejoin Ganden Monastery. They are willing to swear against Shugden's practice.
Absolutely ridiculous!
It is good news. They will set a very good example to Shugden people all around the world.
Is this true though? Of course not....not sure where you get your information but maybe seems just wishful thinking. No matter, Shar Gaden is moving forward and gets stronger as the days go by. :)
Good try! But next time you plan to spread untrue statements, please quote the source(s), because without quoting the source of your information, how do you expect us to believe you just because you share the same name as the HHDL?
News and articles about the grand ceremony took place in Shar Gaden is all over the net and those who did not have the merits to witness it could still admire the grandeur via photos taken. Shar Gaden is definitely DOING VERY WELL. Wake up my friend.
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso
Please read this thread about monks in Serpom and Shar Gaden. It appears they are doing fine ;D
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The thread:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1625.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1625.0)
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
My question is where did you get this information from, and if you could provide a link to back up the "hot talk", because I ain't buying nothing honey. How do you know what the Shar Ganden monks feel, or how the dynamics/situation in Shar Ganden is when you're not in there?
Many novice monks joined Shar Ganden, and if the monastery couldn't provide for them, I do not think they would've accepted such a large group of novice monks.
Also, I know for a fact that it was Shar Ganden who raised and got the money to pay for the real gold painting/touch-up for Zong Rinpoche's and Trijang Rinpoche's stupa recently to make it as grand as it is today when Ganden monastery could not afford to. If it's any one who is in a more dire situation, I think it would be Ganden, no? Ganden Shartse's abbot is away promoting himself, and not doing much for Ganden Shartse, whilst Khensur Rinpoche of Shar Ganden is firmly grounded to the wellbeing of Shar Ganden.
Of course in future, when the ban is lifted, I do hope that Shar Ganden and Ganden will rejoin as one, as there is no need for separation anymore. All resources and forces can combine as one, to concentrate on protecting and spreading the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa far and wide for the degenerate times that we are in and the practise of Dorje Shugden will grow, as he is the uncommon protector for Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching. No need for separations and divisions. I hope I'll live to see that day.
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Another 65 novices are on the way to Shar Gaden right now to enroll. They will arrive in a few days. :)
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Like I'd said in a previous post, just because a lot of people are doing something, it doesn't mean it's right. Come on. The whole world is doing a lot of things, en masse. It doesn't mean its good. Your kids are all watching violent, sick cartoons now on the television instead of the good old wholesome days of Sesame Street. Thanks to media, there's a lot more kids now in the world watching sick s&*t than the good stuff of old. It doesn't mean it's good.
Our times are so degenerate anyway that it's hard to tell whether something is truly good because it's good. Or whether it's "good" just because it's wealth, and physically big and a lot of people follow it.
I would stick with Gaden which has been tried and tested so I agree with you there Tenzin Gyatso. I hope they realise before it's too late and go back to the mother monastery.
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Like I'd said in a previous post, just because a lot of people are doing something, it doesn't mean it's right. Come on. The whole world is doing a lot of things, en masse. It doesn't mean its good. Your kids are all watching violent, sick cartoons now on the television instead of the good old wholesome days of Sesame Street. Thanks to media, there's a lot more kids now in the world watching sick s&*t than the good stuff of old. It doesn't mean it's good.
Our times are so degenerate anyway that it's hard to tell whether something is truly good because it's good. Or whether it's "good" just because it's wealth, and physically big and a lot of people follow it.
I would stick with Gaden which has been tried and tested so I agree with you there Tenzin Gyatso. I hope they realise before it's too late and go back to the mother monastery.
Dear Karla
Just by saying that you will follow Gaden because it “has been tried and tested” you have just refute your earlier claim that “just because a lot of people are doing something, it doesn’t mean it’s right.”
You need to be clear here, what do you mean by having been “tried and tested?” in what way? Is it because you consider them as an older institution, so they are doing the right thing when they expelled DS practitioners from their monastery just because they chose to practice practice their faith?
And you agree with Tenzin Gyatso that the reason Shar Gaden is considering to comeback to Gaden is purely due to shortage of money, and afraid of being alienated from their families? Firstly, the other respondents above have responded to you that Shar Gaden is doing ok financially. So Tenzin Gyatso’s claim that is only based on hearsay is not true at all. Secondly, more and more families are sending their children to Shar Gaden because they believe this is a good institution.
Honestly, I do not understand what are you agreeing here? By choosing to agree with Tenzin Gyatso’s claim above, you have chosen to believe in hearsays that is not even true. Do learn and study up the materials available in this website and support your argument intelligently.
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Like I'd said in a previous post, just because a lot of people are doing something, it doesn't mean it's right. Come on. The whole world is doing a lot of things, en masse. It doesn't mean its good. Your kids are all watching violent, sick cartoons now on the television instead of the good old wholesome days of Sesame Street. Thanks to media, there's a lot more kids now in the world watching sick s&*t than the good stuff of old. It doesn't mean it's good.
Well karla, i see your point there. But you have a look at WHO it is within the masses that are following the practice. This isn't just some television show or some brand of snack. This is a spiritual practice! Yes, there are a lot of people out there who are also practicing things that are not correct or even harmful. It doesn't mean that's good either.
What's important is to consider who it is that is engaging, teaching and spreading the practice. Checking things through thoroughly and examining our spiritual teachers and path BEFORE we engage in it is important. That's the whole point of having resources like this website, the thousands of books out there, and our teachers. Think things through with logic, not just out of a spur of a moment.
Consider the lamas who have been engaging, teaching and spreading the practice, read their biographies, meet them if you have a chance, examine the works they have written and you will see that they aren't just anyone. They aren't just some kid out there who is watching a sick cartoon. Examine the results and actions of such practitioners and you will realise that they aren't ordinary, that they truly have realisations and attainments from the Dharma that we are far away from.
Here on the forum, we choose to follow this practice because our teachers have given it to us and we have tremendous respect, devotion and love towards our teachers. We choose to follow it not because it is something followed by the masses, but because of the attainments and qualities (not quantity!) of Lamas who have promoted it through time. The very point of this website is that NOT many people are practicing because so many have given it up. This is very much a minority practice actually, if you want to look at it in terms of numbers. So much more of the world is following the Dalai Lama so Dorje Shugden practitioners are very much outnumbered! So your argument about "following the masses" doesn't hold much ground there.
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Here on the forum, we choose to follow this practice because our teachers have given it to us and we have tremendous respect, devotion and love towards our teachers. We choose to follow it not because it is something followed by the masses, but because of the attainments and qualities (not quantity!) of Lamas who have promoted it through time. The very point of this website is that NOT many people are practicing because so many have given it up. This is very much a minority practice actually, if you want to look at it in terms of numbers. So much more of the world is following the Dalai Lama so Dorje Shugden practitioners are very much outnumbered! So your argument about "following the masses" doesn't hold much ground there.
I think what beggar has just said really hit a chord with me. A Guru-disciple relationship is really personal and if a Guru has given you something especially a teaching, it is something you should treasure in life. It's not really out of blind faith or anything because prior to meeting your Guru, you must have 100% conviction to who that Guru means and what Guru is to you. Another person with or without spiritual authority cannot take those sets of teachings, experiences and learning from you because it has been transmitted to you with love, compassion and very much the kindness of the teachers who have well preserved these teachings and made it accessible to us!
Very wonderful news from Shar Gaden that 67 more novices have just joined and it is amazing what Shar Gaden can do to help preserve and promote the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden to the next generation who will be potential teachers spreading the Gaden tradition furiously to the world!
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I am looking forward to the day when Shar Gaden and Gaden monastery re-unite!
Of course not as TG described with the monks of SG going to see HHDL with an apology, that is pure imagination, unthinkable and illogical. But I can imagine a re-unification, and I can imagine it to happen relatively soon, once the ban has lifted. And the lifting is only a matter of logic and in time, logic always prevails.
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I do not believe these questions are from shar gaden. Theres no source and evidence...anyway time will tell. The current situation in shar gaden still looks promising and there are still manynprojects and plans to improve the wellbeing of the students and the infrastructure of the monastery. There might be anti DS who just wanted to put him down as he is gaining popularity by the day. One day when the dharma king is revealed on stage, these anti DS people, followers and even practitioner will realise that he is a buddha....its still not too late for them to repent and confess. Protector loves all even people who wanted to destroy him.
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I truly believe that one day Shar Gaden and Gaden both monasteries will reunite! Well, most probably when the ban is lifted. After all they are one. I don't know and can't judge how the monks of Shar Gaden feel and the running of the monastery. But one thing i know even though both monasteries split but the monks actually still share good friendship. After all they all came from the same guru.
Just taking a wild guess, because Shar Gaden is famous for doing Dorje Shugden practice and keeping it so I would assume they are the representative for everything Shugden? So from Pujas to statues, Shar Gaden would be the exclusive. So I don't think the monks in Shar Gaden is not surviving, in fact I think they are more renown for their practice and pujas compared to Gaden now. After all, the hottest topic is still Dorje Shugden.
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I don't think the talk in Dharamsala is unfounded that Shar Ganden is not doing too well and wishes to join back with Ganden Shartse Monastery and apolgoize to HHDL (high time).
1. More young innocent monks joining just means they were sent from remote distant places without much resources, so the parents send them to Shar Ganden for sustenance reason. When they reach teenage years, they disrobe and return home. This is widespread. They are joining because they were sent not because they understand or accept Shugden as enlightened. It's not the same as if actual scholars, senior monks and sangha are NOW leaving monasteries to join Shar Ganden. No one senior, established and can think are leaving their monasteries and joining Shar Ganden Monastery.
2. The abbot of Shar Ganden is not accepted, invited or goes on any tours of any countries. We don't hear anything about him. He is not popular nor accepted.
3. The older monks are dying off and the younger monks aren't interested in all this anti-Dalai Lama propaganda. They want to join back with Tibetan monastic mainstream life again. I don't blame them.
4. If there were so many practitioners how come Shar Ganden only has a few hundred monks. Why didn't many more monks join them when they wrongfully seperated from Ganden Shartse Monastery.
5. They cannot get a official Geshe degree and they don't have enough learned people to give awards, oversee exams or watch over the curriculum.
6. Their websites and fb pages are very simplistic, not well maintained and strictly informational. They don't have stories of lamas, histories, lineages, practices, question and answer section, biographies or much news. Which leads many to believe they are not thriving.
7. It must not be easy knowing HHDL is very displeased with them for being such unnecessary renegades. The word is Geshe Kelsang stopped sponsoring Shar Ganden and they don't have official sponsorship so food and rations getting low.
8. We don't hear of any Geshes churned out from Shar Ganden this year nor last year. The educational standards are dropping.
Dharamsala talk has basis and truth. Tibetans in general talk alot and word gets around. The word is Shar Ganden is not doing well.
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HAhahaha, have you seen Gaden Shartse's website?
If you are so quick to judge a book by it's cover, what kind of picture does the Shartse website paint?
http://www.gadenshartse.net/ (http://www.gadenshartse.net/)
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Also, yes there are still many Geshes graduating every year. Quite a few this year in fact.
Yes, the abbot travels many countries giving Dharma teachings, including France, Italy and Switzerland. He is very well respected and honored wherever he goes.
There are over 800 monks enrolled as monks here at Shar Gaden. There was a census a few months ago. Some of the monks are teaching in other countries, but the majority live at the monastery.
You are getting spoon-fed untruths by those who do not have any facts.
All that I have stated above are facts, that can be verified by existing records and documents. You have nothing but rumors and talk from gossip hounds. Sorry.
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HAhahaha, have you seen Gaden Shartse's website?
If you are so quick to judge a book by it's cover, what kind of picture does the Shartse website paint?
[url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url] ([url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url])
What do you mean? Do you mean it is good or bad?
???
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Also, yes there are still many Geshes graduating every year. Quite a few this year in fact.
Yes, the abbot travels many countries giving Dharma teachings, including France, Italy and Switzerland. He is very well respected and honored wherever he goes.
There are over 800 monks enrolled as monks here at Shar Gaden. There was a census a few months ago. Some of the monks are teaching in other countries, but the majority live at the monastery.
You are getting spoon-fed untruths by those who do not have any facts.
All that I have stated above are facts, that can be verified by existing records and documents. You have nothing but rumors and talk from gossip hounds. Sorry.
Sorry, what you say is very general. What is many Geshes? How is the Abbot honoured and respected? Where are pictures of the Abbot's travels? What centres? How many attend his talks?
How do you know the facts? Are you involved with them? Do you visit?
Do you have proof of what you are saying or is it hearsay or assumptions also?
People in Dharamsala related to me what I wrote here, that is the perception of Shar Ganden. Truth or not is besides the issue, that is the perception. I wonder why?
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Yes, I have proof. Like I said, there are records.
Of course, people in the anti-shugden 'camp' can have whatever perceptions they want, that does not make it reality.
I noticed you are now silent on the website issue.... ;D. The Shar Gaden website seems much more up to date than the Shartse site, don't you think? The Shar Gaden website was just updated yesterday in fact from what I can tell. The Shartse website has been 'under construction' for many months and looks very primitive by comparison.
Yeah, I bet you are now not so quit to judge on mere appearances huh?
Cheers
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edit: quit should read quick.
(still no option of editing posts :-\)
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Sorry, what you say is very general. What is many Geshes? How is the Abbot honoured and respected? Where are pictures of the Abbot's travels? What centres? How many attend his talks?
How do you know the facts? Are you involved with them? Do you visit?
Do you have proof of what you are saying or is it hearsay or assumptions also?
People in Dharamsala related to me what I wrote here, that is the perception of Shar Ganden. Truth or not is besides the issue, that is the perception. I wonder why?
Dear Tenzin Gyatso
Please read this thread:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1625.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1625.0)
Losang_Tenpa is a monk at Shar Gaden hehe... ;D
I am a monk at Shar Gaden. Although the monastery is cut off from the Tibetan community at large, there are still many people around the world who support the monastery.
The monastery is supported much like any other monastery; by contributions from various benefactors. Meeting the various needs of the monastery is a very difficult task. The administrators here work tirelessly to make sure every monk is well taken care of. They do an excellent job.
Those wishing to reach out to assist the monastery can contact the administrator's office directly at -
Email: [email protected]
[email protected]
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Also, yes there are still many Geshes graduating every year. Quite a few this year in fact.
Yes, the abbot travels many countries giving Dharma teachings, including France, Italy and Switzerland. He is very well respected and honored wherever he goes.
There are over 800 monks enrolled as monks here at Shar Gaden. There was a census a few months ago. Some of the monks are teaching in other countries, but the majority live at the monastery.
You are getting spoon-fed untruths by those who do not have any facts.
All that I have stated above are facts, that can be verified by existing records and documents. You have nothing but rumors and talk from gossip hounds. Sorry.
Sorry, what you say is very general. What is many Geshes? How is the Abbot honoured and respected? Where are pictures of the Abbot's travels? What centres? How many attend his talks?
How do you know the facts? Are you involved with them? Do you visit?
Do you have proof of what you are saying or is it hearsay or assumptions also?
People in Dharamsala related to me what I wrote here, that is the perception of Shar Ganden. Truth or not is besides the issue, that is the perception. I wonder why?
So you "heard" from people in Dharamsala??? So it is a hear say. You yourself did not see and did not investigate further but just went with the gossip and rumours and idle chatter? Oh aren't those like actions you should not engage in if you were a Buddist pratitioners? Aren't those in the refuge vows? My friend seeing is believing... don't live ur life on rumours - you will be quite heavily disappointed when they are opposite of your projected views. I think perhaps you should check out the links that so many has kindly pointed out here for you to read and see for yourself.
Well from what I "hear" from my friends in Shar Gaden.. they seem to be doing perfectly alright and growing! I heard :D get it! And well there are pictures to prove it too. I gues flying here and there was not necessary for the Abbot because sponsors fly to him ;)
Oh by the way... here moving pictures with audio to prove it so u don't have to hear it no more... and it shows high Lamas conferring monks voice to another illustrious high incarnate Lama - Kyabje Domo Geshe Choktrul Rinpoche...
Kyabje Yongyal Dorje Chang Visits Shar Gaden Monastery 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLuMAQzEWiM#)
His Eminence Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche is a student of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. He is a very learned master with many practices. He is a most qualified teacher from Serpom and is Serpom Monastery's first and current abbot. Here he is making his first visit to Shar Gaden Monastery to confer the novice monk vows on the Kyabje Domo Geshe Choktrul Rinpoche. He is recieved with the highest honors and respects as accorded to such a great master such as himself.
You are fortunate to see this video of the Shar Gaden sangha with great respect receiving Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche's visit to their Monastery.
Kyabje Yongyal Dorje Chang Visits Shar Gaden Monastery 2
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edit: quit should read quick.
(still no option of editing posts :-\)
There will be no options of editing posts. The end. Accept and move on please. Thanks.
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Yes, I have proof. Like I said, there are records.
Of course, people in the anti-shugden 'camp' can have whatever perceptions they want, that does not make it reality.
I noticed you are now silent on the website issue.... ;D. The Shar Gaden website seems much more up to date than the Shartse site, don't you think? The Shar Gaden website was just updated yesterday in fact from what I can tell. The Shartse website has been 'under construction' for many months and looks very primitive by comparison.
Yeah, I bet you are now not so quit to judge on mere appearances huh?
Cheers
1. Post the proof here.
2. What does Ganden Shartse Website have to do with anything of this discussion?
3. In fact don't be quick to judge from appearances is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Just because Shar Ganden's website is 'spiffier' than Gaden Shartse's doesn't mean they are doing better.
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Yes, editing is only allowed for those who work for the website. I understand. The other 4 or 5 who post here, who do not work for the website, do not have that option. I understand. Got it. I just mentioned it for those who may have wondered why I added a new post instead of editing. No problemo.
As far as the websites, it was you Tenzin Gyatso who brought up the Shar website as being a poor reflection of the monastery.