dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on September 11, 2016, 03:59:49 AM
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Just summit for everyone to consider. Weve all seen those videos of people swearing out of Shugden practice where their forced to stand in front of a thangka, statue or some high official and swear out from the practice. If you notice, its literally thousands of people being forced to do this. And if youve not seen the video here it is: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/gaden-monks-forced-to-swear-against-dorje-shugden-video/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/gaden-monks-forced-to-swear-against-dorje-shugden-video/)
So youve got that. Then, on the other hand, the Tibetan leadership insist that Dorje Shugden is a minority practice and everyone who practised it willingly gave it up, save for a few stubborn stalwarts (I think they mean us hahaha). But when you watch the video thats where their argument collapses.
How can you give up something you never had? To swear out of summit, doesnt that mean you had the practice first? So doesnt that mean that literally thousands of people had Dorje Shugden practice and were then forced to swear out?
So if the Tibetan exile population is approx 128,000 people and thousands swore out, then how is Shugden a minority practice? :o :-\ :-\ it means a sizeable chunk of the population practised it. Youve got the thousands who swore out, PLUS the 600-700 monks of Serpom and the 600-700 monks of Shar Gaden :-\ :-\
EDITED: previously quoted Tibetan exile population as 100,000 when the 2009 census put the figure closer to 128,000.
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You are so right DharmaDefender. Well, on top of mismanagement of Governance, the CTA is lousy at statistic as well. As usual they always kick themselves in the butt with contradictions. One minute they are accusing Shugden practitioners as minority and the next they show thousands swearing out. Haha! Good one DharmaDefender for catching them out. Its just as they say no Ban and then their actions all points towards it being ban, then the excuses given for the ban all being invalid and then they say pursue dialog with China whilst dissing China wherever they go. And people accuse women as indecisive....
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I totally agree with you, Dharmadefender that Dorje Shugden is not a minority practice. Since the ban, so many monks were forced to swear out and denied their rights to their faith. What is happening now is the direct responsibility of the Dalai Lama as his followers are making the lives of Dorje Shugden practitioners more wretched by the segregation in the monasteries and in the lay community. It is within the power of the Dalai Lama and the CTA to end this discrimination.
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Finally, someone spoke our minds out loud. It is true that it is impossible for Dorje Shugden practice to be a minor practice. If it were, why is there a need for people to swear out of the practice? Through the ceremony it only shows more evidence that the practice is done by many and that the CTA/ Dalai Lama forced people to not do the practice. Reiterating that there is an unfair ban to this situation.
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There is a very mixed response I have to reading the words "Minority Practice". But first I just want to clearly say that the reason why this amazing practice is a minority practice is because of the ban and how people and monks have actually been silenced and stopped because they were practising Shugden. It is wrong that the ban exists and that has been well established because of it's horrible effect on people but that is why it is a minority practice. This practice is a minority practice at the moment but that is just because it was forced to be. But all that is changing. If I have offended anyone please just know that I did not mean to and I do know that we are growing and getting bigger. This comment is not going to be relevant soon. So please do not take this the wrong way in terms of my intention.
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Dorje Shugden practice is certainly not a minority practice. Once again the Tibetan leadership is making inaccurate statements to confuse the world. Surely they realize that the world is not made up of naive 3 year old children. Even if only a small number of people are doing the Dorje Shugden practice, the fact does not afford them the rights to discriminate and forcefully have the practitioners swear out of the practice. How is it that the ruling government could be so threatened by a practice done by a minority? Please stop distorting the facts.
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It is really weird that the Tibetan leadership are categorizing the practice of Dorje Shugden as a minority practice even though a considerably large number of people out of a 100,000 people population swore out. Like what SabS said, the CTA are always digging their own graves by making contradictory statements. One moment they are saying this, next moment they are saying the opposite of what they just said. Video recordings once again prove this.
It is just really very wrong for the CTA to deny people of their rights to practice their religion freely and this needs to stop now and it is entirely up to the Dalai Lama and the CTA to lift the ban and give back the rights to practice and worship Dorje Shugden or etc without any restrictions rules.
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Is anyone keeping count? Is that why Sera Mey was giving out badges to see who is not practicing Dorje Shugden? So that they can say which is a minority practice or not?
A shameful act and breaking it into tiny little parts for people to lay people can implement without needing to consult the police? Shame!
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It just doesn’t make sense to dismiss Dorje Shugden as minority practice given the statistics. But then again, can’t really expect much in terms of coherency from CTA, they don’t really think through and react in a knee-jerk fashion when things don’t go their way. Then, when it becomes clear that their haphazard reaction doesn’t make sense or inconsistent, CTA will just misuse their association with Dalai Lama and his influence to cover up whatever such illogical inconsistencies since it has always worked as their trump card for them to get away with things.
Fortunately, we now see more and more people wizening up and even questioning such inconsistencies. In fact, based on recent events (from the Dalai Lama clarifying his real stand on Dorje Shugden to people questioning the logic of CTA relying heavily on oracles in making national decisions etc) it would not be far-fetched to say that the clock is really ticking for CTA. In any event, CTA would be hard pressed and cannot get away with using the same old tricks to hoodwink people anymore.
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Dorje Shugden is no way a minority practice. Not only is the evidence shown in this article an example of that, but everywhere I look I see more and more people practicing Dorje Shudgen around the world and where I live. The practice of Dorje Shugden is growing, and it will continue to grow until the end of time. And eventually the ban will be lifted. So people can keep saying that the Dorje Shugden practice is a minority practice, but once there are too many people to deny such a practice, we shall see who is laughing.
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Whatever it is, the CTA is playing a game called wear you out. I must admit that some days i let them get to me.
What has being a minority practice got to do with the ban. You mean, if very few of us practice a certain religion, it gives someone the right to ban it. Does that mean that i'm rendered non human by that? Even animals have rights! Please don't insult the animals.
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The swearing out also imply that anyone who have not received the practice, from this point onwards they are not allowed to receive the practice.
The majority of Gelugpas were Shugden practitioners, but I have heard there are quite a number who were not Shugden practitioners. It was never an issue whether you practice or not, as the main thing you practice is the Dharma. But when the ban came along, then it became such a big issue. I know people who are not Shugden practitioners, but went with the Shugden practitioners solely because their Guru is a Shugden practitioner.
The dynamics of the ban is so deep and complex as it involves a lot of Tibetan rules, which most of us Westerners find it difficult to comprehend or don't understand it at all due to lack of exposure to the culture.
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There's a lot of politics involved in this particular case of this ban on Dorje Shugedn, me thinks. How to debate doctrines with people who are on hell bent on calling names and will not listen you what you have to say. like a little kid who keeps crying and will not listen to reason. OS you just can get through to them.
So, tough nut to crack.
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Thanks for the headsup DD.
I have heard that Gelug tradition was the most pervasive in Tibet. So most of the Tibetan(s) pre Chinese invasion would be Gelugs.
So Dorje Shugden is definitely not a minority practice at all as many people tries to claim.
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Totally agree that Dorje Shugden is definitely not a minority practice.
There's a lot of politics involved in this particular case of this ban on Dorje Shugedn, me thinks. How to debate doctrines with people who are on hell bent on calling names and will not listen you what you have to say. like a little kid who keeps crying and will not listen to reason. OS you just can get through to them.
So, tough nut to crack.
Well, if you really examine the situation, it is more about CTA preserving or protecting their own interests and it is never about serving the interest of Tibetans. Why else would CTA opt to persist with such illogical ban.
More so when Dalai Lama himself has recently clarified that Dorje Shugden does not harm him. You would think that CTA would cease spreading such hate especially when the main reason used by CTA to justify the ban has been effectively negated by the Dalai Lama. But no, soon after the Dalai Lama made such clarification, CTA allowed Penpa Tsering (in his official capacity as representative of CTA) to continue instigating Tibetans to go against Dorje Shudgen practitioners who include fellow Tibetans.
So, not surprising that CTA will just deliberately continue blocking out/ignoring any logic and spewing their lies to maintain the façade as well as capitalise on the fact that they kept getting away without much repercussions for as long as they can.
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As I said before and reiterate here again, this is just a tactic to divert attention from the real issue of the impotence of the CTA to do what they said they will do. They are unable to fulfill a promise made to the Tibetans. If they can fan enough hatred and get the people so fired up that they put on their blinkers and can see nothing else, they are home free - home run!
Sad thing is the these angry mob are the people who stand to lose the most. Why do they have to carry a chip on their shoulder instead of looking at the fight for independence objectively?
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The CTA claims that Dorje Shugden is a minority practice, but yet how many hundreds of people have sworn to stop practicing Shugden? Doesn't make sense, this shows what a bunch of cowards the CTA people are. In fact besides the people who have already sworn to stop practicing Dorje Shugden there are also those who still practice in the shadows since you don't know those people how can you simply assume that Shugden is a minority practice? There are easily thousands of laypeople and monks who still practice Dorje Shugden silently.
If Dorje Shugden was a minority practice why is it that the CTA had to force so many people to stop practicing it? Is it possible to stop practicing something that you never practiced? Doesn't make sense.
I really hope that the CTA and the DAlai Lama will reunite everyone without regard to whether or not they practice Dorje Shugden.