Author Topic: About Initiation your own experience ?  (Read 18718 times)

Zach

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About Initiation your own experience ?
« on: September 21, 2010, 11:35:32 PM »
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If I may I would like to recount my experience with the D.S. initiation. I will tell the tale as journalistically as possible. My own opinions will be kept separate:

It was '78 or '79, years before HHDL made a public issue out of all this. Lama Yeshe (of FPMT fame) had invited his teacher, Tsong Rinpoche (a.k.a. Zong Rinpoche) to California to give teachings. Tsong R. gave a 10 day course in the Santa Cruz mountains on the Lam Rim. Lama Zopa was the translator.

At the end of the course there were a series of initiations given. First was Yamantaka. I took it. Next was Vajrayogini. I took it. Then came Dorje Shugden. I was going to take it too but the night before it was given the samaya for it was announced. The samaya was to 1) Not to take any teachings from any lama not a Gelugpa. 2) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s monastery. 3) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s tantric college within that monastery. And 4) Never to touch a Nyingma text upon pain of death.

I am a Karma Kagyu student and so I did not take the initiation. However, out of respect for the importance of samaya, to this day I keep the mantra commitments from the Vajrayogini initiation.

This is the apparent account of someone, I would like to know if anyone here came across such Initiation rites Into Dorje shugden practise as some of them seem a tad bit overboard to me ? These seem pretty odd ?

Cheers.  :)

WisdomBeing

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 09:25:36 AM »
Dear Zach

Gosh - these do sound a bit overboard - to my limited mind anyway. This is the first time I've heard about this 'touching Nyingma text on pain of death'! Considering all that i have read about Dorje Shugden lineage lamas like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche who were invited to Nyingma monasteries to give teachings as well as Gelugpa, this 'requirement' sounds implausible. However, i do hope that someone who may know more about these initiations can shed some light.


Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

triesa

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 12:42:23 PM »
The account of the samaya for DS initiation sounded very overboard. I hope there was a twist in it???

It would be great if someone who has received the DS initiation shed some clear light for all of us.

Triesa

beggar

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2010, 01:14:42 PM »
Zach, where did you extract this personal account from? Is it from any credible source?

Zach

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2010, 02:48:55 PM »
Zach, where did you extract this personal account from? Is it from any credible source?

Its from someone who said he was going to receive it from Zong rinpoche in the 70's I was wondering if there is any truth to these ? as they sound Almost Implausable terms of Initation ?

LosangKhyentse

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2010, 06:55:14 PM »
Quote
If I may I would like to recount my experience with the D.S. initiation. I will tell the tale as journalistically as possible. My own opinions will be kept separate:

It was '78 or '79, years before HHDL made a public issue out of all this. Lama Yeshe (of FPMT fame) had invited his teacher, Tsong Rinpoche (a.k.a. Zong Rinpoche) to California to give teachings. Tsong R. gave a 10 day course in the Santa Cruz mountains on the Lam Rim. Lama Zopa was the translator.

At the end of the course there were a series of initiations given. First was Yamantaka. I took it. Next was Vajrayogini. I took it. Then came Dorje Shugden. I was going to take it too but the night before it was given the samaya for it was announced. The samaya was to 1) Not to take any teachings from any lama not a Gelugpa. 2) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s monastery. 3) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s tantric college within that monastery. And 4) Never to touch a Nyingma text upon pain of death.

I am a Karma Kagyu student and so I did not take the initiation. However, out of respect for the importance of samaya, to this day I keep the mantra commitments from the Vajrayogini initiation.

This is the apparent account of someone, I would like to know if anyone here came across such Initiation rites Into Dorje shugden practise as some of them seem a tad bit overboard to me ? These seem pretty odd ?

Cheers.  :)

The above account for the commitments to Dorje Shugden is DEFINITELY NOT CORRECT.
I have the initiation or it is called Sogtae. Those are not the commitments or samaya.

tk

Zach

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2010, 09:40:36 PM »
Quote
If I may I would like to recount my experience with the D.S. initiation. I will tell the tale as journalistically as possible. My own opinions will be kept separate:

It was '78 or '79, years before HHDL made a public issue out of all this. Lama Yeshe (of FPMT fame) had invited his teacher, Tsong Rinpoche (a.k.a. Zong Rinpoche) to California to give teachings. Tsong R. gave a 10 day course in the Santa Cruz mountains on the Lam Rim. Lama Zopa was the translator.

At the end of the course there were a series of initiations given. First was Yamantaka. I took it. Next was Vajrayogini. I took it. Then came Dorje Shugden. I was going to take it too but the night before it was given the samaya for it was announced. The samaya was to 1) Not to take any teachings from any lama not a Gelugpa. 2) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s monastery. 3) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s tantric college within that monastery. And 4) Never to touch a Nyingma text upon pain of death.

I am a Karma Kagyu student and so I did not take the initiation. However, out of respect for the importance of samaya, to this day I keep the mantra commitments from the Vajrayogini initiation.

This is the apparent account of someone, I would like to know if anyone here came across such Initiation rites Into Dorje shugden practise as some of them seem a tad bit overboard to me ? These seem pretty odd ?

Cheers.  :)

The above account for the commitments to Dorje Shugden is DEFINITELY NOT CORRECT.
I have the initiation or it is called Sogtae. Those are not the commitments or samaya.

tk


Please Tk if you are able what are the real commitments. I dont want the false view spread that these would be actuall commitment vows for Dorje shugden practise such a thought is potential more fuel to the fire.

Vajraprotector

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2010, 10:24:25 PM »
Wow, this is quite shocking if it is real. I hope this is not an account of someone you have met or someone you know who is telling the truth.

This somehow reminds me of the yellow book, re the advice of not "mixing and polluting the teachings", and that sickness, insanity and death ensued for those who did.

I personally do believe that no. 4 is quite extreme and cannot be possible. Morever, how can a Kagyu person accept those conditions?

Helena

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2010, 05:40:57 AM »
By the historical evidence that shows Dorje Shugden being propitiated in the Sakya Tradition first and then Gelug is already proof that this Protector is not sectarian.

I feel sometimes the interpretation and comprehension of some individuals might be the cause of un-necessary confusion.  And it is things like these which really cause a great deal of un-necessary grief, misunderstandings, anger and even violence. 

I should think there should always be only one real commitment - Guru Devotion. That alone would require an individual to hold all our Refuge Vows, Bodhisattva Vows and Tantric Vows well. Without Guru Devotion, nothing can be transmitted. So, that much I can understand.

However the commitments that Zach W listed are very extreme and does not seem to promote anything that supports all the above vows which I have just mentioned.

No Dharma Practice or any religion and spiritual practice would promote division or the cherishing of oneself, one person or organization over another.

It only encourages us to find the path that is most suited for us and the practice that we have most affinity with, because that would enable us to remain on the path and not become astray.

Again, I am always more wary at how different individuals interpret or mis-interpret certain things and that will lead others into the wrong direction or thinking.



Helena

WisdomBeing

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2010, 06:47:02 AM »

The above account for the commitments to Dorje Shugden is DEFINITELY NOT CORRECT.
I have the initiation or it is called Sogtae. Those are not the commitments or samaya.

tk


I'm very relieved to have it confirmed that the sogtae does not require that kind of commitments. It simply didn't jive with me and I felt that it is actually common sense that it cannot be true.

However, it is very worrying that people are spreading such misinformation out there and how many people would have been wrongly influenced by this and not know the truth. Thank Buddha that we have Dorjeshugden.com but what about the many out there who haven't yet come across this website. Now i realise even more strongly why we need to promote this website as a source of information for anyone who is spiritually curious about Dorje Shugden.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Zach

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2010, 10:30:27 AM »

The above account for the commitments to Dorje Shugden is DEFINITELY NOT CORRECT.
I have the initiation or it is called Sogtae. Those are not the commitments or samaya.

tk


I'm very relieved to have it confirmed that the sogtae does not require that kind of commitments. It simply didn't jive with me and I felt that it is actually common sense that it cannot be true.

However, it is very worrying that people are spreading such misinformation out there and how many people would have been wrongly influenced by this and not know the truth. Thank Buddha that we have Dorjeshugden.com but what about the many out there who haven't yet come across this website. Now i realise even more strongly why we need to promote this website as a source of information for anyone who is spiritually curious about Dorje Shugden.


Yes I agree I was rather Disturbed by this. Ive only had the blessing empowerment so I have no idea as to what the sogate commitments entail. However I dont not feel that someone as esteemed as Zong Rinpoche would use such extreme commitments. When people spread potentially inaccurate information the best way to confront it is to be open and honest as it could potentially do alot of damage.

triesa

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2010, 10:54:25 AM »
Zach, where did you extract this personal account from? Is it from any credible source?

Its from someone who said he was going to receive it from Zong rinpoche in the 70's I was wondering if there is any truth to these ? as they sound Almost Implausable terms of Initation ?

Dear Zach,

Since Tk has confirmed that the accounts of committments from the person who was about to receive the DS initiation from Zong Rinpoche was NOT CORRECT, is there a way you can clarify with that person? I was just wondering where do you read this information from??

It may help to clarify any misunderstandings and misconceptions about DS initiation.

Thanks.
Triesa

LosangKhyentse

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2010, 01:07:02 PM »
Quote
If I may I would like to recount my experience with the D.S. initiation. I will tell the tale as journalistically as possible. My own opinions will be kept separate:

It was '78 or '79, years before HHDL made a public issue out of all this. Lama Yeshe (of FPMT fame) had invited his teacher, Tsong Rinpoche (a.k.a. Zong Rinpoche) to California to give teachings. Tsong R. gave a 10 day course in the Santa Cruz mountains on the Lam Rim. Lama Zopa was the translator.

At the end of the course there were a series of initiations given. First was Yamantaka. I took it. Next was Vajrayogini. I took it. Then came Dorje Shugden. I was going to take it too but the night before it was given the samaya for it was announced. The samaya was to 1) Not to take any teachings from any lama not a Gelugpa. 2) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s monastery. 3) Not to take any teachings from any lama not of Tsong R.'s tantric college within that monastery. And 4) Never to touch a Nyingma text upon pain of death.

I am a Karma Kagyu student and so I did not take the initiation. However, out of respect for the importance of samaya, to this day I keep the mantra commitments from the Vajrayogini initiation.

This is the apparent account of someone, I would like to know if anyone here came across such Initiation rites Into Dorje shugden practise as some of them seem a tad bit overboard to me ? These seem pretty odd ?

Cheers.  :)

The above account for the commitments to Dorje Shugden is DEFINITELY NOT CORRECT.
I have the initiation or it is called Sogtae. Those are not the commitments or samaya.

tk


Please Tk if you are able what are the real commitments. I dont want the false view spread that these would be actuall commitment vows for Dorje shugden practise such a thought is potential more fuel to the fire.

The commitments are secret but I can 100% assure you that it does not involve any form of sectarianism. The commitments reinforce you to:

1. follow Tsongkapa's tradition all the way till enlightenment
2. hold dorje shugden as your principle protector until you gain Bodhicitta

Great masters who can reincarnate back with control, have great attainments in their mindstreams and have great compassion such as Pabongka, Trijang and Zong Rinpoches would never hurt anyone not even a fly. If they would propagate something so negative, they could never gain attainments for sure. So see it from a logical point of view. Anyways, this ONE person if he has wrong views will not affect Dorje Shugden's growth. No matter how good something is, there are always people against it. It's the nature of samsara that we have to accept.

So if this person you have quoted runs around saying these things about Dorje Shugden's commitment, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

There are specific Karma Kagyu protectors or Drigung Kagyu protectors like Hlamo Apchi. Hlamo Apchi is a female protector that was thought to be a spirit, but later was found out to be highly attained. She was rejected by the Kagyus and ppl at that time warned others about her and her practice. Not only was she considered negative, but shunned only later to 'usurp' the other protectors and become the PRINCIPAL protector for the Drigung Kagyus up till the present day. The Drigung Kyabgon Rinpoches of hundreds of years ago adopted her as the principle protector of the Drigung Kagyu sect and her job is to protect those of the Drigung Kagyu sect followers and unique teachings. Does that make those who follow her sectarian? Of course not. It is that the Drigung set of teachings are very precious and need protection from degeneration. Same as with Shugden and Gelug. So there is a special protector to just protect the Drigung Kagyu teachings and followers but of course Hlamo Apchi will not harm other sects. If people of other sects propitiate her, she will of course help them also although her main 'function' as assigned to her is the Drigung Kagyu cycle of teachings.

TK

Zach

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2010, 01:31:26 PM »
Thanks tk.  :)

Big Uncle

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Re: About Initiation your own experience ?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2010, 03:27:37 PM »
There are specific Karma Kagyu protectors or Drigung Kagyu protectors like Hlamo Apchi. Hlamo Apchi is a female protector that was thought to be a spirit, but later was found out to be highly attained. She was rejected by the Kagyus and ppl at that time warned others about her and her practice. Not only was she considered negative, but shunned only later to 'usurp' the other protectors and become the PRINCIPAL protector for the Drigung Kagyus up till the present day. The Drigung Kyabgon Rinpoches of hundreds of years ago adopted her as the principle protector of the Drigung Kagyu sect and her job is to protect those of the Drigung Kagyu sect followers and unique teachings. Does that make those who follow her sectarian? Of course not. It is that the Drigung set of teachings are very precious and need protection from degeneration. Same as with Shugden and Gelug. So there is a special protector to just protect the Drigung Kagyu teachings and followers but of course Hlamo Apchi will not harm other sects. If people of other sects propitiate her, she will of course help them also although her main 'function' as assigned to her is the Drigung Kagyu cycle of teachings.

TK


Thank you TK, for this great story as it put into perspective what is going on with Dorje Shugden right now. I think it is safe to say that the obstacles that the practice is going through right now is similar too many practices like Hlamo Apchi and I read even when Yamantaka first came to Tibet. I read that Ra Lotsawa, the great translator that brought the Yamantaka Tantras had tremendous obstacles from the people of this time because they didn't believe that Yamantaka could possibly be a Yidam because of his bull face. However today, Yamantaka is widely practiced in the great monasteries and one of the great practices that many have gained great attainments. Likewise, many are unsure whether Dorje Shugden is really a Dharma Protector but once his time comes, he will be widely accepted and help many to gain relief and even great attainments.