Author Topic: Even Handed Information  (Read 11207 times)

LosangKhyentse

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Even Handed Information
« on: July 26, 2010, 03:28:20 PM »
Whatever damage the ban has done to the reputation of the Dalai lama is now forgotten or minimal.

He is still travelling non-stop, the govt leaders that have been meeting up with him are still meeting with him, the Indian Govt has done nothing re the court case. Dalai Lama is very powerful. He is still talking openly against Shugden at most public gatherings. He outlived the protests and court cases. The thing we can do is to make our Dorje Shugden practices very strong by:

1. Having more centres that practice and promote Shugden

2. Making sure shar gaden and serpom 'make' it ( we must advert them, facebook, tweet them and financially support them)

3. Supporting financially all those who support Serpom and Shar Gaden

4. Raising the status of our Dorje Shugden Tulkus whose names are already well known (they are proof positive practicing shugden does not lead you to lower realms since they are back). Tulkus are very important. The continuation of their names throughout history makes impact.

5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures

6. Making websites/forums like this a 'hive' of activity where everyone can log on for information and resources


As the Dalai Lama has just a few years left (sorry), the Shugden movement can and will become bigger as many advices by Dalai Lama will be eventually forgotten. 5th Dalai Lama closing down Kagyupa Monasteries is barely remembered today.

After the Dalai Lama has passed, all the famous Shugden Tulkus can teach, and spread the practice without any interferences or minimal. No other Gelug lama can take the place of Dalai Lama as secular/spiritual leader of all Tibetans. No non-Gelug Lama can do so either. If any non-Gelug Lamas after Dalai Lama start talking against Dorje Shugden, he can be finger-pointed as sectarian.

Hence these days you had Sakya Trizin 'condemning' Shugden. Who listens? You had Dudjom condemning, who listened? Dilgo Kyentse nor Karmapa says anything against Dorje Shugden. Karmapa previous incarnation did not criticize nor both of the current karmapas. Dilgo Kyentse never spoke anything at least publicly against Dorje Shugden. I must say, Dilgo Kyentse whom I met, was an extraordinary individual with tremendous energy of compassion you can feel when you are in his presence. Drigung Kyabgon and Drukchen Rinpoches are silent on the Shugden issue. Kalu Rinpoche as far as I know mentioned nothing publicly. After the Dalai lama is gone, no one will listen to Gaden Tripa as no one listens to them now anyway. Dalai Lama never gave a chance for the Gaden Tripas to play their role in full. But the great Tulkus of the Gelug lineage are either admired or despised around the world because of the Dalai Lama. But either way, the Gelug Tulkus are known. Their reputations can be turned from 'bad' to good after the passing of Dalai Lama.

Constant rude writings and hate filled comments re the Dalai Lama will make this website a turn off the thousands who know nothing of what the Dalai Lama has done. When we write, we cannot write FOR OURSELVES. We have to write clearly, level headed, and even handedly to make our writings more 'neutral' to new people who come to this forum. Our writings must portray a even non-biased information for the reader to contemplate and think about when they go away. When it is one sided and filled with hate, it automatically makes people not want to read what the 'fanatics' have written. You may love Shugden, promote Shugden and sing the praises of Shugden as much as you want WITHOUT RUDE/HATE COMMENTS ABOUT THE DALAI LAMA.

Hence I like the Mission Statement of this website. Everyone presents this information without EXCLUDING THE OTHER SIDE completely. The 'other side' may be wrong, but in debate, the purpose is not to make them wrong by rudeness, but by wisdom, knowledge, information, facts and let them think it out. It is to win your 'opponent' by skill of your knowledge and presentation.


We must make platforms like this website accessible and readable to the greater many that visit for knowledge and information so they can on their own free time, digest. Therefore even handed information without unpleasantness is very important. This platform is not just for us. There are many more who are involved than just us. We can change their minds, their lives and their views for the positive with our words.

TK

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 03:35:34 PM by tk »

thaimonk

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 03:28:52 AM »


This is a very well written and informative post. Thanks :)


WisdomBeing

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 05:09:29 AM »
Thank you for the advice, TK. Appreciate it.

Everyone who visits this website is so fortunate to have this wealth of info here - at our fingertips. I like this website very much because I think it's fair in that there are articles and videos on both sides of the controversy. It lets visitors like me gain knowledge so that we can make up our own minds on the issues.

I especially liked what you said re "even handedness without unpleasantness". That would be lovely!

In any case - when the Dalai Lama passes on, I wonder how the young Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will manifest... especially as he is now in lay clothes and keeping a very low profile now. I can't wait for the day when the wall between Shar Gaden and Gaden Shartse comes down...



Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lone Hermit

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 06:06:55 AM »

In any case - when the Dalai Lama passes on, I wonder how the young Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will manifest... especially as he is now in lay clothes and keeping a very low profile now. I can't wait for the day when the wall between Shar Gaden and Gaden Shartse comes down...


HE Choktrul Rinpoche has already given a good indication of how he will manifest. By looking at his website you will see he is going to be (already is) a great teacher:

www.tbiusa.org

And before leaving for America he gave a very interesting interview with Tibetan Radio in which he also makes clear his position in relation to DS:

    “I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me...and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing...

    I also don't want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

    I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.

    I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness...

    I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness...

    Some have told me, 'If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.'

    It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me."

    In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness's government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.

    With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

    These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement."

Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him, "I do not wish to be in touch with you."


You can see the original here:

www.nktworld.org/mislead.html






WisdomBeing

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 06:49:12 AM »
Thank you for sharing that message from HH Trijang Choktrul, Lone Hermit.

I find HH Trijang Choktrul's position on not deciding against HH the Dalai Lama is heartening. It is indeed a difficult position for him to be in and his decision to leave his ladrang and disrobe rather than be involved in politics or slandering the Dalai Lama is truly an example of an attained being. I find it very inspirational. Thank you.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lone Hermit

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 08:04:03 AM »
Thank you for sharing that message from HH Trijang Choktrul, Lone Hermit.

I find HH Trijang Choktrul's position on not deciding against HH the Dalai Lama is heartening. It is indeed a difficult position for him to be in and his decision to leave his ladrang and disrobe rather than be involved in politics or slandering the Dalai Lama is truly an example of an attained being. I find it very inspirational. Thank you.

Me too! And you're most welcome.

 :D :D :D

Zach

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 04:36:41 PM »
Even handed information ???
Has one seen some of the threads popping up lately...spamming crap from NKTWORLD ?

 ???

Big Uncle

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 05:21:02 PM »

In any case - when the Dalai Lama passes on, I wonder how the young Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will manifest... especially as he is now in lay clothes and keeping a very low profile now. I can't wait for the day when the wall between Shar Gaden and Gaden Shartse comes down...


HE Choktrul Rinpoche has already given a good indication of how he will manifest. By looking at his website you will see he is going to be (already is) a great teacher:

www.tbiusa.org

And before leaving for America he gave a very interesting interview with Tibetan Radio in which he also makes clear his position in relation to DS:

   “I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me...and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing...

    I also don't want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

    I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.

    I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness...

    I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness...

    Some have told me, 'If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.'

    It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me."

    In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness's government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.

    With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

    These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement."

Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him, "I do not wish to be in touch with you."


You can see the original here:

www.nktworld.org/mislead.html


I am amazed at what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is going through right now. I can't even begin to fathom the amazing pressure that is constantly on his shoulders. For a young man, he is handling matters really well - another evidence of his 'tulku-ship'. He is not taking sides, probably with the intention to forge his own destiny and reemerge later when times are more conducive.

I am really glad, he is being courageous by not abandoning Dorje Shugden and disrobing to avoid being made a puppet Lama by overzealous Shugdenpas. Therefore, the future shines very bright for this young tulku, with heavy responsibility as he is an apparent heir to a prestigious incarnation line. I do pray for the lessening of his obstacles and for his Dharma activities to materialise, grow and benefit countless beings. I do foresee him coming unto his own in the future to be a influential religious leader much like the Dalai Lama or perhaps becoming a successor if we are fortunate...

Big Uncle
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 05:23:08 PM by Big Uncle »

honeydakini

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 06:37:56 PM »
The thing we can do is to make our Dorje Shugden practices very strong by:

1. Having more centres that practice and promote Shugden

2. Making sure shar gaden and serpom 'make' it ( we must advert them, facebook, tweet them and financially support them)

3. Supporting financially all those who support Serpom and Shar Gaden

4. Raising the status of our Dorje Shugden Tulkus whose names are already well known (they are proof positive practicing shugden does not lead you to lower realms since they are back). Tulkus are very important. The continuation of their names throughout history makes impact.

5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures

6. Making websites/forums like this a 'hive' of activity where everyone can log on for information and resources


This is fantastic and something I think all DS practitioners should read. Instead of merely going on and on about all that the Dalai Lama has done wrong (because this method is now starting to fall on deaf ears a bit isn’t it?), look for other means of promoting, supporting the practice and making it flourish.

In the frenzy of denouncing all of DL’s actions, we have forgotten all the amazing and hugely beneficial things that many, many DS lamas are doing all around the world – why don’t we talk about that instead? Lends far more inspiration for practice and brings a much more positive energy to the discussion.

These few points make such logical sense to me. Much like the way this website both provides knowledge about the issue but also creates a balance by providing plenty of information about the masters and the practice itself. Remember that not everyone in the world may be interested in the politics and controversy. I myself have met many people who have told me straight out that they don’t care about the politics. They just want to practice and want to know how the practice will help their spiritual path. Are we going to forget about all these people in our frenzy to drive home the point that DL is a “liar, dictator, hypocrite” and done all these wrong, bad things?

Yes, yes, it’s been said, we know he’s been doing these things – but what now? What else can we do? Find another way.

If you believe that Dalai Lama is actually helping to promote the Shugden practice and make it big, then you will be helping him to achieve this by doing things such as the points TK has mentioned.

If you really truly believe that Dalai Lama is a petty little liar who is out destroy Shugden, then “get your own back”: promote Shugden, prove the TGIE “wrong” who are out to demolish the practice, support the courageous people who are continuing their practice in the midst of all the difficulty.

Either way, you win because it will mean more people connect to the Protector’s holy practice and will benefit from it in their spiritual paths. Isn’t that what we all want in the first place? To preserve the lineage, teachings and bring this incredible benefit that we have experienced to many more people? Keep that focus and TK’s 6 points will fall ever so readily into a logical place.

Thanks again TK. These points have uplifted my heart on a day when the forum seems to have digressed to a lot of hateful words.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 11:44:55 PM »
Thank you for sharing that message from HH Trijang Choktrul, Lone Hermit.

I find HH Trijang Choktrul's position on not deciding against HH the Dalai Lama is heartening. It is indeed a difficult position for him to be in and his decision to leave his ladrang and disrobe rather than be involved in politics or slandering the Dalai Lama is truly an example of an attained being. I find it very inspirational. Thank you.

I don't think it's just him not willing to be involved in politics or slandering, but the fact is he's choosing not to create or be a part of schism. He's taking an active step to prevent people from 'staining' Trijang Rinpoche's great name by using his tulku status to back up their arguments. His actions are protective of the sangha and of the tulku tradition.

And I hope people remember His Holiness' words the next time they want to slander lamas, back-bite, criticise fellow dharma brothers and sisters - "I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness..." - the amount of pain we cause our lamas is terrifying, and their compassion to continue despite our barbaric behaviour is the mark of a bodhisattva.

thaimonk

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2010, 01:51:18 AM »
Lone Hermit,

I love this post re Trijang Rinpoche. Very heartwarming. What a great exalted Tulku he is.  :)


triesa

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2010, 04:43:50 PM »
Thank you for sharing that message from HH Trijang Choktrul, Lone Hermit.

I find HH Trijang Choktrul's position on not deciding against HH the Dalai Lama is heartening. It is indeed a difficult position for him to be in and his decision to leave his ladrang and disrobe rather than be involved in politics or slandering the Dalai Lama is truly an example of an attained being. I find it very inspirational. Thank you.

I don't think it's just him not willing to be involved in politics or slandering, but the fact is he's choosing not to create or be a part of schism. He's taking an active step to prevent people from 'staining' Trijang Rinpoche's great name by using his tulku status to back up their arguments. His actions are protective of the sangha and of the tulku tradition.

And I hope people remember His Holiness' words the next time they want to slander lamas, back-bite, criticise fellow dharma brothers and sisters - "I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness..." - the amount of pain we cause our lamas is terrifying, and their compassion to continue despite our barbaric behaviour is the mark of a bodhisattva.

Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is another great DS practitioner who is showing to all his students that under difficult and conflictual situations, he as a teacher to many of his followers,  chose not to cause any disgrace to HH Dalai Lama, yet not abandoning his practice to DS, he disrobed himself and left his own ladrang. is there something here we should all learn from Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche? It is true what DharmaDefender said, that sometimes our narrow minds and barbaric behaviour do not really reflect at all that we are practitioners of the great king Dorje Shugden. Thanks to all the great Tulkus who are leading by examples again and again to show to us how we should act, speak and behave in times like this. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche chose the middle way, not to offend HH the Dalai Lama and on the other hand still being true to his protector, by practising privately for the time being.

Triesa

diamond girl

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2010, 05:52:46 PM »
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is another great DS practitioner who is showing to all his students that under difficult and conflictual situations, he as a teacher to many of his followers,  chose not to cause any disgrace to HH Dalai Lama, yet not abandoning his practice to DS, he disrobed himself and left his own ladrang. is there something here we should all learn from Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche? It is true what DharmaDefender said, that sometimes our narrow minds and barbaric behaviour do not really reflect at all that we are practitioners of the great king Dorje Shugden. Thanks to all the great Tulkus who are leading by examples again and again to show to us how we should act, speak and behave in times like this. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche chose the middle way, not to offend HH the Dalai Lama and on the other hand still being true to his protector, by practising privately for the time being.

Triesa
[/quote]

This post has been most informative as I have wondered why Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche disrobed. After reading this thread I am heartened like many of you how his actions show us how an attained being thinks and acts - beyond for oneself but for the bigger picture for others. He made his stand very clear that he would not disrespect HHDL. This is something that many can learn from instead of focusing on condemning HHDL. There have been many who have posted such "barbaric" words and thoughts against the HHDL that I was indeed turned off.

When I first visited this website I was here to learn and indeed I did but did not appreciate some of the rubbish written which were so one-sided. I am glad to see that some have stopped. I like this website and I like the recent new section catered for new people. So informative and neutral. THANK YOU!!

thor

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2010, 07:59:44 PM »
Even handed information ???
Has one seen some of the threads popping up lately...spamming crap from NKTWORLD ?

 ???

Is there someone who knows what really went on behind the scenes who can enlighten the rest of us? There are so so so many unpleasant posts all over the internet about Geshe-la and it is very disturbing and a huge turn-off for new people to read, especially the defaced photos of him.

I stick to my original point posted somewhere in the Lucy James thread that as organisations grow bigger with huge public profiles, there are bound to be those who are dissatisfied with the leadership, looking to gain a piece of the pie for themselves and when deterred, lash out with public statements that are partly or completely false. It is sites like NKTWORLD that plant the seeds of doubt in fresh new minds, and that must be avoided.

I believe Geshe-la to be free of fault or improper motivation, as I was taught by my teacher. And I am against putting other buddhist teachers down or criticising them. As a lay sangha member, how can i criticise someone ordained, who I am supposed to uphold as one of the Three Jewels? I who hold just the basic vows, how can I take up such a position against an ordained Sangha who has been taught in the greatest monasteries by such high teachers. Of course I cannot and neither should anyone else. It is ridiculous how lay people find it so easy to point fingers at the sangha nowadays.

I do not believe what they say of Geshela. And I hope more of Geshe-la's students come forward to defend him and sing his praises in places such as NKTworld.

DSFriend

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2010, 08:27:42 PM »


5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures

the brochures sure are making its way all over the world. I do think it's a wonderful "tool" to bring Dorje Shugden to others...literally, bringing DS to their doorstep. I'm sure some will chuck it away...but I rejoice for those who read it and has kept the deity card with them!



After the Dalai Lama has passed, all the famous Shugden Tulkus can teach, and spread the practice without any interferences or minimal. I'ver never come across No other Gelug lama can take the place of Dalai Lama as secular/spiritual leader of all Tibetans. No non-Gelug Lama can do so either. If any non-Gelug Lamas after Dalai Lama start talking against Dorje Shugden, he can be finger-pointed as sectarian.

You brought up the point that no other gelug lama can take the place of Dalai Lama. ..never thought of it that way. I've never come across news that any gelug lamas even trying to take over dalai lama's position. 

« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 09:38:43 AM by DSFriend »