Author Topic: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!  (Read 92021 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2010, 08:18:25 PM »
Hello tk, your answer went way beyond what I wanted. Thank you.

But, could we somehow remove this discussion into a separate thread? I think we can do that.

In fact, I can copy-paste everything tomorrow, into a newly generated thread, that I shall post. So, dear Admin etc, let everything here remain as they are... (Meaning: No need for Admin to do anything.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 08:26:51 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2010, 08:19:18 PM »
...anyway, this is really the final straw for me on this topic. I certainly wish you all the best, but I can't take it, I find it embarassing to be associated with this.

cheers and good luck!

Please stay. Otherwise the Fifth Column has won the game on this.

Is this about winning?? Oh dear. Then I don't need to spend so many hours posting information. It wouldn't help you anyway would it?

I rather post pages of information not rantings and ravings on how bad the tulku system is. Yes you are right, you don't know who this new Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is. He could be a drunkard and swindler. But then he might not be. Maybe he is an ordained monk. Since we know nothing why assume the worst just because you know so little of who he is.

There will be a huge group that will accept who he is even if 6 forum people do not. That is a promise. Because Shar Gaden and Serpom ordinary monks will not know who it is. But the very few senior will reveal in the future again for safety sake. So we should not recognize tendar rinpoche, dagom rinpoche, dromo geshe rinpoche, rabten rinpoche and the current zong rinpoche as the tulku system is wrong. I don't think so. 

It's just you do not know who it is. So becareful. You don't like to hear hopeful wishes regarding this incarnation, well I don't wish to hear your unnecessary judgement based on your ignorant hatred of the tulku system. When you berate the Tulku system you have berated the multitudes of sublime tulkus that have appeared and benefitted so many for hundreds of years. I meet a couple of uncouth sailors,I don't need to put down the whole Navy. I don't need to chant with down with the Navy. Tulkus will continue to appear named and unnamed because they will fulfill their aspirations.


tk



« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 08:25:25 PM by tk »

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2010, 08:28:28 PM »
Hello tk, your answer went way beyond what I wanted. Thank you.

But, could we somehow remove this discussion into a separate thread? I think we can do that. In fact, I can copy-paste everything tomorrow, into that newly generated thread. So, dear Admin etc, let everything here remain as they are... (Meaning: No need for Admin to do anything.)

It would be nice if we all met and openly and politely debated all our issues. A weekly sharing some sort.  I am sure I can give you much more insights, examples, facts, and explanations. Writing and forums are very limited. Very limited indeed. But we will have to be content with this for the moment as with most things in existence. Just view it differently then it becomes different.

TK

crazycloud

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2010, 08:43:23 PM »
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Is this about winning?? Oh dear. Then I don't need to spend so many hours posting information. It wouldn't help you anyway would it?

I think this is correct, TK, sadly you have wasted many hours typing all this and totally DESTROYING the straw man you were battling

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He could be a drunkard and swindler. But then he might not be. Maybe he is an ordained monk. Since we know nothing why assume the worst just because you know so little of who he is.

This is, sadly, totally illogical. None is assuming the worst. In fact from my side, I am not assuming anything at all. I agree he many or may not be a swindler. So if others agree also, why all the unfounded adulation?

If I say I have found Je Tsongkapas reinacarnation!!!! ;D !! ;D ;D ;D!! ;D ;D!

and everyone was like, "Oh! now we are saved! I wonder how the Dalia Lama feels right now! Je Tsonkhapas reincarnation is so holy and kind!!"

Wouldn't you say...."hold on a minute...let's have a little more info, please..."   ??

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So we should not recognize tendar rinpoche, dagom rinpoche, dromo geshe rinpoche, rabten rinpoche and the current zong rinpoche as the tulku system is wrong. I don't think so. 


It seems you are having some difficulty understanding the arguments put forth. No one said the Tulku system is wrong, did they? But it is true that if we uncritically accept these lamas without checking them, the DHarma is done for.

 
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You don't like to hear hopeful wishes regarding this incarnation, well I don't wish to hear your unnecessary judgement based on your ignorant hatred of the tulku system.

I do in fact like hopeful wishes regarding this Tulku, here are mine: I hope he is a kind man. I hope he benefits the Dharma. I hope he benefits Je Tsongkhapas lineage. I hope he has a happy life.  What I object to is pandering, fawning and hysteria regarding someone no-one has ever seen.

sorry you don't like to read my posts about the dangers inherent in the tulku system. it's not ignorant, though, it's based on personal experience, and it's not hatred, I like it, just don't trust it as it TOTALLY depends on those who find and rear these tulkus. these participants are often severely deluded beings. wake up to the reality. Tibeatn Buddhism is being destroyed by the Tulku system.

Spare yourself the hours or writing about how tulkus and oracles are real and amazing, I agree in many cases.

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When you berate the Tulku system you have berated the multitudes of sublime tulkus that have appeared and benefitted so many for hundreds of years. I meet a couple of uncouth sailors,I don't need to put down the whole Navy. I don't need to chant with down with the Navy. Tulkus will continue to appear named and unnamed because they will fulfill their aspirations.

the old "navy" analogy, huh? I will try to be more clear: the tulku system which is real and has benefitted many in eastern lands, is now on it's way out. Even Je Tsongkhapa was very wary of this, and did not encourtage it. It is a theat to the Buddha dharma, which does not require it.

so I say "Up with the navy!" but let's not exaggerate their function or say "Oh my god! This private in the navy is going to save everyone! Thank god they are here!"

It looks silly.

Have a nice day tk. Don't get upset, it's not personal.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #139 on: July 10, 2010, 08:57:53 PM »

Well if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is announced, why do you need to jump up and down and say all the negative things since you don't know him? Because others are excited?

Why are you so negative. Because they are positive? Just because I am thinking good thoughts and have hopes DOES NOT MEAN I WILL NOT EXAMINE THE PERSON THE BEST I CAN IF AND WHEN THE TIME COMES.

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes. Yes, I put effort, and if you think it is wasted, that is really part of your way of thinking. But I think I put in sincere effort and to give another side of the coin. I don't think it's wasted as private messages came in thanking me for the effort already and not necessarily that they agree.

And no, this is not about winning. Because if it is, you lost.

Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk



« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 09:02:42 PM by tk »

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #140 on: July 10, 2010, 09:08:31 PM »
But dear tk, don't you see, that this "we the 6 on this forum", whomever we are, are not denying anything, including Tulkus - we are merely refusing to be lemmings.

HHDL has many lemmings.
Why should DS have them too?
Or TDG, by that token?

As to the question concerning Tulkus or oracles, let us make separate threads of these issues, without any specific instances made mentioned. Then we can discuss about these issues in general without any hint of politics.

And as for the idea of winning, well, I have for my part no game, except rationality and Dharma. That game I shall win... unless of course business goes well, and I'll have to think about investing in more business, whereby you guys have to do without me.

But anyway, if you really think it would be great to meet me, just come here... but contact me beforehand, since I might be in a neighbouring country otherwise, or something. Do you prefer bitter or cider? I do hope you are not one of those vegetarians we hear so much of these days...In this country we grill meat!

crazycloud

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2010, 09:14:24 PM »

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

tk you have gotten confused

Quote
If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.

Quote
No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.

In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level.  ;)

Quote
Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk

keep it humble tk. love it.



LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2010, 09:20:05 PM »
But dear tk, don't you see, that this "we the 6 on this forum", whomever we are, are not denying anything, including Tulkus - we are merely refusing to be lemmings.

HHDL has many lemmings.
Why should DS have them too?
Or TDG, by that token?

As to the question concerning Tulkus or oracles, let us make separate threads of these issues, without any specific instances made mentioned. Then we can discuss about these issues in general without any hint of politics.

And as for the idea of winning, well, I have for my part no game, except rationality and Dharma. That game I shall win... unless of course business goes well, and I'll have to think about investing in more business, whereby you guys have to do without me.

But anyway, if you really think it would be great to meet me, just come here... but contact me beforehand, since I might be in a neighbouring country otherwise, or something. Do you prefer bitter or cider? I do hope you are not one of those vegetarians we hear so much of these days...In this country we grill meat!

Well Shar Gaden and Serpom accept, look for, install tulkus from Dorje Shugden's recognitions, so if it's ok for them it's ok for me.  They are our hope for the future. Am I a lemming because I trust my teachers who follow the tulku system? Am I like the lemmings that follow HHDL? I certainly hope not. LOL.

Geshe-la doesn't 'like' tulkus. So hence you don't? Is that a lemming (sorry)?

I would love to meet all of you, give you a big hug, talk in person one day but probably not soon unfortunately till this ban thing blows over. I have work to do, money to make to continue to sponsor Shar Gaden/Serpom, books to distribute, brochures to distribute (remember I'm distributing 108,000), retreats to do. Much more study too.

Yes, I love cider. Sorry, I hate meat. But I love bread, pasta, tempura, scones and milk tea. Let's make an open date in the future. One Tsongkapa follower to another. Thank you very much.

TK

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2010, 09:24:08 PM »

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

tk you have gotten confused

Quote
If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.

Quote
No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.

In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level.  ;)

Quote
Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk

keep it humble tk. love it.




"Ya big baby?"



Oh dear. Good luck to you.

Humbly always,


TK



thaimonk

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2010, 09:33:02 PM »

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.


Your exasperation makes you might want to leave? Perhaps you should tone it down so that we are not exasperated with you. Be polite and nice, and not sarcastic PLEASE. I don't see anyone provoking you, yet you are consistently rude.

Not that I am telling you to leave, but if you leave who loses? Answer: NOBODY.


dsnowlion

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2010, 09:42:33 PM »

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

tk you have gotten confused

Quote
If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.

Quote
No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.

In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level.  ;)

Quote
Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk

keep it humble tk. love it.





OM Buddhas, what is going on here??? I didn't realize that A TDG announcement can stir up so ego bruising? Crazy cloud, you one crazy man! It fits ur name. And I thought u bid farewell?! Awww miss the forum hu?

If u don't like what majority says, and all the credulous remarks, that is ok, but we don't have to be such a big baby and cry so defensively.

Stay humble ya, that's what Lama Tsongkhapa say ;D

WoselTenzin

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2010, 09:52:29 PM »

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

tk you have gotten confused

Quote
If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.

Quote
No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.

In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level.  ;)

Quote
Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk

keep it humble tk. love it.




Dear Crazy Cloud,

Clearly, you are defeated flat in this debate with TK and you refused to accept the logic presented to you.  You hold on to your narrow stereotype believes just because you are unexposed and do not know better.  Too bad for you!!!  You could have learned so much if only you are less fixated and more humble.


Namdrol

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2010, 09:58:39 PM »
Hey Crazy Cloud!

I've been reading quietly all the posts for months and I am going to post this one time. Your posts have been consistently the most sarcastic. Are you what you pray to? Is Dorje Shugden like this? If not, STOP!!

You write long posts filled with spiteful negative words at anyone YET YOU GIVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE, EXPLANATIONS, OR INFORMATION. Your posts educate no one. Everything is opposition to any knowledge shared.

You know so little yet you knock down anyone who has something to share. You feel like your from E-sangha. Anything on Gelugs, the moderators shoots you down. Here, anything against CRAZY CLOUD YOU GET SHOT DOWN.

Well, this is my first post ever and last because people like you on the forum really make me disappointed. The Shugden group is small and you encourage so much friction WITHIN THE 'FAMILY'. SAD!

Your views are different, yet I don't see anyone attacking you, yet you constantly attack.

Getting out of here, I came here to learn not get EXASPERATED AT SO MUCH SARCASM. No more of this forum for me.

iloveds

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #148 on: July 10, 2010, 10:20:17 PM »
You know what whenever I see yours and others names
Crazy Wisdom, Empty mountains, whats that other one, oh ya ... trinley kalsang

I know its not going to be anything interesting, maybe some generalist statements proclaiming the obvious and putting down anything that is different. You never use logic, examine arguments thoroughly, your comments never further a discussion to better insight... your just an expulsion of  argumentative hot air,

phhhhhhwwwwaaaaarrrrtttt.... puttt puttt.. (sniff sniff)

You understand tulkus are to benefit, but you don't believe they are here to benefit.... see I rest my case

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I am not saying that there are no such things as Tulkus, or that they are never beneficial, so no need for psuedo prasangika consequences showing how I don't accept Trijang Rinpoche as he believed in Tulkus etc etc etc. That is just plain silly.

tulkus are real, and their nature is benefit. I just thought that in this day and age, especially among this group of people, we would know better that to repose our hopes in the hands of one. OF COURSE Tulkus are beneficial! OF COURSE there are oracles, and they can, in certain circumstances, be useful.

Can either one COMPLETELY DESTROY our lineage? Yup. There is a "tulku" who is out there trying right now, and the only reason he hasn't TOTALLY SUCCEEDED is that not everyone accepts him as who he is touted as being.

The announcement of TDG is supposed to benefit, thats what our Protector has been doing soo many years already, but you doubt.

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Finally, along the lines of Trinley Kelsang's (always ) sane and informed posts, it really makes no differece at all. Not to Dharamsala, not to those with a spirtual guide, to no one.

Theres the old school  its ugly head again, wanting this forum for themselves and their own views.

Please... your one line put downs to tk... so informed!? i don't think so BUDDY, but your not here for friendship, you just want to feel power in your little man syndrome world where you only get pleasure from stroking your  err ego to get a rise out of people in this forum. Look at Tk's posts in general, it provides real readings / information that people want and appreciate.

Can you go stroke yourself somewhere else?

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OS, kind reader, please realize that the tulku tradition is too dangerous in these our degenerate times. It will be the end of those who dance with it.

Sad day for you, in your so called "degenerative" age, you don't want any hope, neither do you want anyone else to have any... that's ok there is a thing called karma, if you cared at all for yourself and the results of being wrong in this case.

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The actual "reincarnation " line of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen ended at his death/buddhahood. SO whoever this is, if it is anyone at all, is a recognized emanation, at best. But if you have a guru, you already have that! Dorje Shugden's emanations pervade the owrld!! Why run after an "inherent" one?!?! What is it you need for this supposed emanation? TTGIE will COMPLETELY IGNORE THE RAVINGS OF ANYONE WHO CLAIMS HE IS WHO YOU SAYS HE IS, it will not even cause them to hiccup. Probably they will just laugh at what a bunch of superstitions sheep we are.

Very wrong, they can not ignore, DS / TDG will not be silenced.
Because obviously your not an oracle,
you don't believe in such things to be able to tell us the future
neither will you seek a Tulku's advice for clarification because you don't believe in these degenerate times.,
Can't you just shut up
See how the future pans out.

You just make yoruself look more stoooopid!

dsnowlion

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Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2010, 10:26:46 PM »
Quote
Your exasperation makes you might want to leave? Perhaps you should tone it down so that we are not exasperated with you. Be polite and nice, and not sarcastic PLEASE. I don't see anyone provoking you, yet you are consistently rude.

Not that I am telling you to leave, but if you leave who loses? Answer: NOBODY.

Yeah agree Thai Monk!

I mean being skeptical and wanting to check things out, debating logically with good reasoning so that everyone can understand and ponder upon because it makes sense is fine. I think I would accept that. BUT if you start bashing people down because they are hopeful is awfully cruel. Even if ur motivation is right and u wanted to correct people's wrong view, if it is wrong in the first place of course, you need to use skillful methods that will work so we will see your point of view as valid and something to think about MAYBE. But it's  just so LAME and you are debating out of who knows - to WIN? - then STOP WASTING your precious time and other people's time - have some compassion please, others got better things to do.

By da way ... the announcement on Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen before we could even blink has been completely COPIED on to a NKTWORLD.ORG website PLUS they made the announcement so JUICY adding some spice in to something that was not even there... :o

"Apparently, the newly reincarnate Shugden has been watching NKT's battle with Tibetan Buddhism since the 1990s without his human involvement"

Oh Deary me...