Author Topic: something for serious discussion...  (Read 4443 times)

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something for serious discussion...
« on: November 02, 2007, 07:53:23 PM »
We have received this wonderful letter and feel it provides great material for deep contemplation and discussion!



from "a friend" (USA)

Dear friends,

First of all let me greet you all on this day of the coming of Lord Buddha from Ganden Paradise to our world. Secondly, let me tell you that it's been quite awhile that I've been observing this website and it's not without hesitations that I decided to send you a message. May be it's the influence of this most holy day that decided me and, friends in Dharma, please don't be hurt by what I might express here even if it sounds harsh. It's my love for sentient beings and utter devotion to the teachings that force me to write.

Of course, this website is very dear and beautiful, since it contains so many images of our holy King Protector, and so many words that are intended for his praise. I thank you from my heart he/she/they, whoever it is that is doing it, and also those who send messages of support.

Nevertheless, there is in this website an element of wrong view that doesn't in any way serve the holy Dharma nor shows any respect towards the Buddhas in general nor towards our Je Rinpoche nor towards the Protector of his teachings. It doesn't show respect, neither, for the Dalai Lama, contrary to the expressed intentions of the writers, because it perverts entirely the wishes and purposes that he has so clearly expressed and maintained year after year. It doesn't show respect towards the unknown number of victims of the religious persecution unleashed by the Dalai Lama against his fellow citizens, victims whose destiny is either ignored or treated with an extraordinary frivolity. I say frivolity lacking a better word. How to call the behaviour that you show, of praising the one who started years ago such incredible actions against our Deity, our Teachings, our fellow practitioners and to this day doesn't relent but continues such actions? When you praise the Dalai Lama in his actions against the Protector's practitioners, using the reason of skillful means, I don't think you understand the meaning of skillful means. Friends, it is true that the Buddhas can take the appearance of anything, including demons, to benefit sentient beings but when they do it, they never play a double game, they never do something conventionally wrong and at the same time proclaim, or make people to proclaim or even suspect that they are Buddhas, they never show their colours, otherwise they would be destroying the very skillful means they are using. Let's use the example of Devadatta, mentioned in your website. It is a view that I heard mentioning by worthy people, that the evil cousin of Lord Buddha was a somehow realized being that was playing a role to serve the purposes of the Buddha. But you can go and try finding one single piece of scripture or utterance of a Lama saying that what Devadatta did was good, or skillful, or wise. What Devadatta did was horrible and nobody that I know of is going to praise him for his actions. Lord Buddha said he loved Devadatta as much as he loved his own son, but he never said a word of praise, never. Are we more intelligent and wise than the Buddha?

But let's be simple, let's not complicate matters. What you are doing in your website, of praising the Dalai Lama for his actions, interpreting that they are skillful means to spread the Dharma –not less!– is a lokta, a wrong view in relation to the Buddha and to all the Buddhas. Because, friends, what is the main and foremost thing that the Buddhas do for us? They cannot take our bad karma with their holy hands and make it disappear, they cannot do that. Instead, they teach us what to keep and what to abandon. What to do and what not to do. So, friends, if you go about proclaiming that what is wrong is in reality good because it is skillful means, you are attacking, destroying the compassionate actions of our Buddhas. Please, do not do that. For your sake and for the sake of those who are going to acquire such wrong view.

Of course, it is an almost unbearable pain to see the one who we used to contemplate as the beacon of Dharma, we poor Westerners who put our faith there, we poor Tibetans who worshipped our leader, do things that are not in accord with Dharma. It is terribly painful. Awful. And it feels good to find justifications, it helps soothe our pain. But that is not the way to go about it.

The way to go about it is not to judge the person, the Dalai Lama. We have to be very clear about his actions, but even mentally we have to remain silent about him. Friends, only the Buddha is able to judge a person, and this is true both for the positive and the negative. You cannot condemn him, but neither can you justify him, otherwise you would be proclaiming yourselves a Buddha.

Also, if we suffered from his actions, we have our most holy teachings of Lojong, and we can remember our Geshe Langri Tangpa and say of the Dalai Lama, he is my utmost Mahayana teacher, because he is teaching me by this suffering he inflicts on me, that I did the same to others in the past. And because he is thus helping me to eliminate my bad karma. This Kadampa view is perfect, it doesn't judge the person, only the effects his actions have on me. And these I can choose, and I have a perfect instruction for choosing, the Lojong.

Enough. It's late, and I said already too many words. Thank you to those who had the patience for reading so far.

May your highest purpose become true, for the benefit of our beloved sentient beings, and may all things be good and happy and wonderful and perfect and joyous and you name it ... for all. 

Sarva mangalam.

from "a friend" (USA)

Ensapa

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2013, 03:39:38 AM »
As much as I would like to agree with this letter that viewing the Dalai Lama's actions as skilful means is a wrong view, that is not what Trijang Rinpoche had said.

In Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors:

CONCLUSION: PERVASIVE ENLIGHTENEDACTIVITIES
There is something I must mention atthis point. As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama andOmniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords ofthe Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama.Using either one as a reason notto admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maraswithout exception.
Again, some who like to speak illogically say that there is resentment
between this lord of Dharma Guardians and the Great Dharmaraja Nechung and that it is therefore unsuitable for the Tibetan Government and its workers to rely
upon this Protector.
This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance ofthe nature ofthese Dharmpalas,the extent oftheirrealizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect. If such Dharmapalas were
motivated by competitiveness, attachment, hatred, and jealousy, how could it be
suitable for those who seek liberation to rely upon and make offerings to them?
This is because not relying upon or associating with vicious worldly gods and
ghosts is one ofthe precepts of having gone forrefuge.
Furthermore, to the common view of beings, it is difficult to fully
understand the appearances of holy great Aryas and their inconceivable three
secrets at the definitive level. Although Buddha Shakyamuni was free of all
dangers, Devadatta firing his catapult at him, wounding him, and he constantly
appeared to compete with and harm Buddha by setting mad elephants upon him
and so forth.



The message is clear: do not go against the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama, and do not go against Dorje Shugden either and there is no benefit to be derived from there. Which is why I do support this forum and its actions of praising the Dalai Lama because it goes in line with Trijang Rinpoche's advice and vision. It is undeniable that the Dalai Lama's action of banning Dorje Shugden has caused untold suffering and pain for many, but this is the time to test our minds, Guru devotion and compassion.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 09:20:53 AM »
We have received this wonderful letter and feel it provides great material for deep contemplation and discussion!



from "a friend" (USA)

Dear friends,

First of all let me greet you all on this day of the coming of Lord Buddha from Ganden Paradise to our world. Secondly, let me tell you that it's been quite awhile that I've been observing this website and it's not without hesitations that I decided to send you a message. May be it's the influence of this most holy day that decided me and, friends in Dharma, please don't be hurt by what I might express here even if it sounds harsh. It's my love for sentient beings and utter devotion to the teachings that force me to write.

Of course, this website is very dear and beautiful, since it contains so many images of our holy King Protector, and so many words that are intended for his praise. I thank you from my heart he/she/they, whoever it is that is doing it, and also those who send messages of support.

Nevertheless, there is in this website an element of wrong view that doesn't in any way serve the holy Dharma nor shows any respect towards the Buddhas in general nor towards our Je Rinpoche nor towards the Protector of his teachings. It doesn't show respect, neither, for the Dalai Lama, contrary to the expressed intentions of the writers, because it perverts entirely the wishes and purposes that he has so clearly expressed and maintained year after year. It doesn't show respect towards the unknown number of victims of the religious persecution unleashed by the Dalai Lama against his fellow citizens, victims whose destiny is either ignored or treated with an extraordinary frivolity. I say frivolity lacking a better word. How to call the behaviour that you show, of praising the one who started years ago such incredible actions against our Deity, our Teachings, our fellow practitioners and to this day doesn't relent but continues such actions? When you praise the Dalai Lama in his actions against the Protector's practitioners, using the reason of skillful means, I don't think you understand the meaning of skillful means. Friends, it is true that the Buddhas can take the appearance of anything, including demons, to benefit sentient beings but when they do it, they never play a double game, they never do something conventionally wrong and at the same time proclaim, or make people to proclaim or even suspect that they are Buddhas, they never show their colours, otherwise they would be destroying the very skillful means they are using. Let's use the example of Devadatta, mentioned in your website. It is a view that I heard mentioning by worthy people, that the evil cousin of Lord Buddha was a somehow realized being that was playing a role to serve the purposes of the Buddha. But you can go and try finding one single piece of scripture or utterance of a Lama saying that what Devadatta did was good, or skillful, or wise. What Devadatta did was horrible and nobody that I know of is going to praise him for his actions. Lord Buddha said he loved Devadatta as much as he loved his own son, but he never said a word of praise, never. Are we more intelligent and wise than the Buddha?

But let's be simple, let's not complicate matters. What you are doing in your website, of praising the Dalai Lama for his actions, interpreting that they are skillful means to spread the Dharma –not less!– is a lokta, a wrong view in relation to the Buddha and to all the Buddhas. Because, friends, what is the main and foremost thing that the Buddhas do for us? They cannot take our bad karma with their holy hands and make it disappear, they cannot do that. Instead, they teach us what to keep and what to abandon. What to do and what not to do. So, friends, if you go about proclaiming that what is wrong is in reality good because it is skillful means, you are attacking, destroying the compassionate actions of our Buddhas. Please, do not do that. For your sake and for the sake of those who are going to acquire such wrong view.

Of course, it is an almost unbearable pain to see the one who we used to contemplate as the beacon of Dharma, we poor Westerners who put our faith there, we poor Tibetans who worshipped our leader, do things that are not in accord with Dharma. It is terribly painful. Awful. And it feels good to find justifications, it helps soothe our pain. But that is not the way to go about it.

The way to go about it is not to judge the person, the Dalai Lama. We have to be very clear about his actions, but even mentally we have to remain silent about him. Friends, only the Buddha is able to judge a person, and this is true both for the positive and the negative. You cannot condemn him, but neither can you justify him, otherwise you would be proclaiming yourselves a Buddha.

Also, if we suffered from his actions, we have our most holy teachings of Lojong, and we can remember our Geshe Langri Tangpa and say of the Dalai Lama, he is my utmost Mahayana teacher, because he is teaching me by this suffering he inflicts on me, that I did the same to others in the past. And because he is thus helping me to eliminate my bad karma. This Kadampa view is perfect, it doesn't judge the person, only the effects his actions have on me. And these I can choose, and I have a perfect instruction for choosing, the Lojong.

Enough. It's late, and I said already too many words. Thank you to those who had the patience for reading so far.

May your highest purpose become true, for the benefit of our beloved sentient beings, and may all things be good and happy and wonderful and perfect and joyous and you name it ... for all. 

Sarva mangalam.

from "a friend" (USA)

This was posted in November 2007, and this is now 2015 and the situation is still the same.  The ban is still on and there had been protests to ask for the Ban to be lifted and yet nothing is happening.

I agree that as practising Buddhists, we should not disparage the great master whom we believe are incarnations of Buddhas, and to also develop Lojong with the Ban.

However, as we progress in our practice of the great Dharmapala, is it possible to have gained some merits and negative purification so that further sufferings will stop?

This bring to mind what I have read HE Tsem Rinpoche talking about reconciliation and the middle way to resolve this issue.  May we progress to success of lifting the Ban. 

psylotripitaka

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 05:22:38 PM »
Just FYI, the quote from Trijang Rinpoche's commentary regarding the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama is NOT referring to the 14th Dalai Lama. It was a very specific line of reasoning regarding the very specific circumstances during the time our Protector arose.


psylotripitaka

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 04:30:36 AM »
Well, I'd like to apologize for my last post here, as I've told myself to cease involvement in this forum when it comes to the ban and Dalai Lama in order to focus on the wonderful Dharma sharing here. But I'll explain briefly my apology.

Regarding this letter (topic of this thread) as I see it, I've already expressed elsewhere that 1) it is contradictory to say we oppose the ban yet also publicly praise the ban as the skilful means of a Buddha, and 2) I cannot wrap my mind around why people feel that the Dalai Lama has not through his actions lost his qualifications as a valid teacher of Dharma. But, since nobody has been willing to discuss these two points and have left it at 'we agree to disagree', I respect your conclusion, apologize for bringing it up again, and will leave it at that.

Through all our efforts, may the persecution and segregation cease, and our friendly dialogue bring greater wisdom, realization, and peace.

Lineageholder

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 08:37:48 AM »
Does Buddha appear as someone who destroys his own teachings? I think not! Why would Buddha undo the work that he previously did to dispel the ignorance of sentient beings by destroying the path that dispels the ignorance of sentient beings?

Logic, anyone?

Lineageholder

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 08:41:28 AM »
The false Dalai Lama won't listen to you. You can 'middle way' as much as you want but he doesn't have to listen to you. Why doesn't he listen? because he doesn't care. He's a politician whose main function now seems to be to destroy people's faith. Recently he said 'Buddha failed to produce a peaceful society'. He has no qualifications as a Dharma teacher because he rejected his Gurus and his tradition out of ego.

Peaceful protests are the only way ahead. May this evil threat to Je Tsongkhapa's tradition be dispelled soon.

Matibhadra

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 04:43:21 PM »
Quote
Recently he [the evil dalie] said 'Buddha failed to produce a peaceful society'.

This is because, according the evil dalie, “producing a peaceful society” is a task uniquely reserved to his paymaster, the Jewish financier and sponsor of international terrorism George Soros.

In this bigger picture, the function reserved to the evil dalie by his terrorist paymaster is just to destroy Buddhism from inside, to cause schism within the Sangha, to disparage his teachers, and even the Buddha himself, to disparage the Dharma, to support Muslim extremists against Buddhists, to destabilize and bring chaos to Buddhist countries such as Myanmar and Sri Lanka, and specially to undermine China's stabiity.

The Jewish financiers controlling the terrorist English East India Company were already doing this more than 100 years ago. They wrought havoc in China with opium and the Opium Wars. They invaded Tibet and murdered thousands of defenseless Tibetans, but eventually the evil 13th dalie lame sided with them, and gave them as a gift a huge chunk of South Tibet, now known as Arunachal Pradesh in India.

The evil 13th dallie lame, now with British financial support and Japanese military training and weapons (whence the current Tibetan-Japanese flag), persecuted and forced into exile the Panchen Lama, and started a sequence of bloody expansionist wars in current Sichuan and Qinghai, until he was soundly defeated and humiliated by pro-China warlords such as Ma Bufang and Liu Wenhui.

Pabongkha Rinpoche refused to be part of this traitorous schema aimed at delivering the country into the hands of Jewish terrorist-colonizer-financiers, and therefore refused the regency after the 13th evil dalie's death. Rather, he became a teacher to the Chinese patriot Liu Wenhui. Therefore he and Dorje Shugden are demonized by the current evil dalie, and by every single Jewish or Jewish-sponsored Western scholar-propagandist.

It is a basic precept of Jewish ideology that every non-Jewish people has to accept the Jewish “god” and a set of Jewish commandments. Jews obsessively try to implement this precept, and the first step is to turn other peoples against their own traditions by disparaging their non-Abrahamic roots, culture, gods, and religion. Thus The evil dalie just performs the role ascribed to him by his Jewish paymaster when he disparages the Buddha and the Dharma, and causes schism within the Sangha.

This is the bigger picture my friends, and there is no “Chenrezig” there.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 02:51:11 PM »
Quote
Recently he [the evil dalie] said 'Buddha failed to produce a peaceful society'.

This is because, according the evil dalie, “producing a peaceful society” is a task uniquely reserved to his paymaster, the Jewish financier and sponsor of international terrorism George Soros.

In this bigger picture, the function reserved to the evil dalie by his terrorist paymaster is just to destroy Buddhism from inside, to cause schism within the Sangha, to disparage his teachers, and even the Buddha himself, to disparage the Dharma, to support Muslim extremists against Buddhists, to destabilize and bring chaos to Buddhist countries such as Myanmar and Sri Lanka, and specially to undermine China's stabiity.

The Jewish financiers controlling the terrorist English East India Company were already doing this more than 100 years ago. They wrought havoc in China with opium and the Opium Wars. They invaded Tibet and murdered thousands of defenseless Tibetans, but eventually the evil 13th dalie lame sided with them, and gave them as a gift a huge chunk of South Tibet, now known as Arunachal Pradesh in India.

The evil 13th dallie lame, now with British financial support and Japanese military training and weapons (whence the current Tibetan-Japanese flag), persecuted and forced into exile the Panchen Lama, and started a sequence of bloody expansionist wars in current Sichuan and Qinghai, until he was soundly defeated and humiliated by pro-China warlords such as Ma Bufang and Liu Wenhui.

Pabongkha Rinpoche refused to be part of this traitorous schema aimed at delivering the country into the hands of Jewish terrorist-colonizer-financiers, and therefore refused the regency after the 13th evil dalie's death. Rather, he became a teacher to the Chinese patriot Liu Wenhui. Therefore he and Dorje Shugden are demonized by the current evil dalie, and by every single Jewish or Jewish-sponsored Western scholar-propagandist.

It is a basic precept of Jewish ideology that every non-Jewish people has to accept the Jewish “god” and a set of Jewish commandments. Jews obsessively try to implement this precept, and the first step is to turn other peoples against their own traditions by disparaging their non-Abrahamic roots, culture, gods, and religion. Thus The evil dalie just performs the role ascribed to him by his Jewish paymaster when he disparages the Buddha and the Dharma, and causes schism within the Sangha.

This is the bigger picture my friends, and there is no “Chenrezig” there.

There you go again, Matibhadra being unkind in your speech.  That is not nice speech to accuse so many people of wrong doings and condemning the Jews.

When pro Shugden asks for religious freedom, should we not also permit other forms of religions including Jewish religion?

Matibhadra

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 07:20:29 PM »
Quote
There you go again, Matibhadra being unkind in your speech.

There is nothing “unkind” with analyzing reality. If your motivation were honest, you would offer your own alternative analysis, rather than merely disparaging others as “unkind” for no reason.

However, there is a lot of unkindness with your covering and sanctifying hideous criminals such as the evil dalie, so that they keep perpetrating their crimes.

Therefore, you unkindly accuse others of  “unkindness” only in order to cover your own brazen, debauched, gruesome support to criminals and criminality.

Quote
That is not nice speech to accuse so many people of wrong doings

This is because you want to protect criminals, and therefore you find it not nice when they and their crimes, together with your accomplicity, are clearly exposed.

Quote
and condemning the Jews.

Since according to you a Jew should never be condemned, no matter which crimes they perpetrate, it follows that you endorse Jewish racist supremacism, which thoroughly disqualifies you as a Buddhist, let alone as a Shugdenpa.

By the way, according to you the evil dalie should never be condemned either, no matter the hideous crimes against humanity he perpetrates, which shows that the main purpose of your whole discourse is just to cover crimes and criminality.

Quote
When pro Shugden asks for religious freedom, should we not also permit other forms of religions including Jewish religion?

Judaism, just like Islam, and by the way Christianity as well, forbids any religion which does not hold their cruel, depraved, bloodthirsty “god” as the only and supreme.

No wonder therefore that the Kalachakra Tantra calls them (together with now-defunct Manichaeism) the “religions of the barbarians”.

Just as the evil dalie forbids and tries to eradicate the practice of Dorje Shugden, so Judaism, Christianity and Islam for millenia forbid and try to eradicate non-Abrahamic religions, including Buddhism.

However, no one in this thread is talking about “not permitting” other religions, such as Judaism. Therefore, you are maliciously trying to ascribe to the victims the crimes engaged in by the perpetrators.

psylotripitaka

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 06:31:22 AM »
Dondrup Shugden,

Matibhadra is very kind to us, helping us to develop patience, and they speak with very precise language to convey something about contradictions within our own consciousness regarding criminal behavior and its effects.

Matibhadra is not condemning Jewish people in general but speaking very precisely with sound logic about a specific set of criminals related to this controversy, and this is based quite obviously on thorough research of international criminal behavior and the human psychology that surrounds it.

Matibhadra is not being slanderous. If we explore their replies and debates very carefully, what comes clear by peoples response or more succinct, their lack of response, clearly shows that there is truth in Matibhadra's words that people do not seem willing to explore.

If we are really a practitioner of the Dharma, we will explore contradictions in our own mind and behavior, and we will especially take care to assess precisely what qualifies our Teacher as a valid Teacher and whether or not it is appropriate to praise their negative behavior. Checking our mind closely, we can see that if we praise the negative actions of others, it is a reflection of our own desire to justify our own inappropriate behavior, and as practitioner's we should see this as unacceptable and clear it from our mind. We will never attain realizations if we follow a teacher who tries to destroy the Three Jewels. If we praise such actions, think very very precisely what karma that creates to praise the destruction of the Three Jewels. You're in very dangerous waters with very long reaching consequences if you cannot wrap your mind around that psychological process in your mind and behavior on this forum.






Dondrup Shugden

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Re: something for serious discussion...
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 03:20:29 PM »
After reading your comments I have truly checked on my mind and as you have correctly mentioned, interpretation of what is said on this forum is the point of view of every individuals.  This forum caters for everyone's opinion and I do apologise if you find my remarks being out of context.

No hard feelings, I accept your points of view and our goal is for the Ban to be lighted and any differences we act on is only for the betterment of our cause.  Thank you both.