Author Topic: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden  (Read 81096 times)

happysun

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2011, 05:45:45 PM »
From my study regarding China culture, Chinese like to consult or believed on fortunate teller's advices. They always believed that god or local deities will give them advices. But while I read through this DS's take trance, let's me realized that DS's divination is so powerful.

But, i also noticed that the Tibetan, means the DS's divination is good. No matter what question you want to ask, normally the result turn into perfect result.

Divination is high being method to spread good news or information to public, while they found out the result is so accurate. So, I think divination be part of the Tibetan and Buddhism.   And it is very clear and accurate.         

valeriecheung

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2011, 10:37:51 AM »
I'm truly believe DS divination is very clear and accurate. The most sad things is people whom make effort and times to seek for divination, at the end of the day they cannot accept or believe the result. For example, result turns out request you to do 100 times fire puja or 1,000 times candle offering it will costs you a lot of many and times. Will they still believe in DS divination ??

yontenjamyang

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2011, 07:26:00 AM »
Firstly, if using feng shui, bazi, numerology, tarrot cards astrology and other such forecasting/metaphysical is so popular; and many will vouch that it is accurate, then I do not see divinations as being contradictory. Definitely if it is from an enlightened being such as DS, then the divination can be relied upon 100%.
If one were to study the Lamrim, we cannot see on the surface, where divination applies. Personally, I think that any kind of relying on unenlightened methods and refuge in not in line with the teaching of the Lamrim. if we believe that divination by enlightened beings being 100% accurate; and we can definite check this;  then it provides a window or glimpse into our potential if we go all the way on the path of the Lamrim.

VS

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2011, 03:51:44 PM »
Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?

I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden? 




Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2012, 09:07:30 AM »
Dear TK.
Thank you for your most detailed and informative article on divinations. It is most useful to our group here as there is not an active dharma centre in our area that practice DS. You are most compassionate to go through all the preliminaries and retreats to get yourself ready to be able to do divinations. You have also listed everything that you can reveal. It is very comforting to know someone have been through all this tough requirements so that some people can be guided when they are really at loss and answers could not be found within.

lotus1

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2012, 02:52:49 AM »
Thank you TK for the detailed explanation on divinations.  The fact that one needs to gone through all the requirement, procedures, preliminaries, and retreats to get himself/herself ready to be able to do divination, it gives me more faith and confident on the divination by Dorje Shugden is 100% beneficial and accurate. It is not anybody that can simply give divination as they need to do all the ground works and be “approved” by his lama before he/she starts to give divination.  As the divination will check all aspects, so the instruction is 100% can be done and aligned with Buddha Dharma. The normal people who take trance to worldly deities is no way to compare with the divinations given by the Enlightened Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. 

As the divination from the enlightened Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden is 100% accurate, one who request for divination should be 100% confident and 100% follow the instructions given by the divination. If we have asked for divination and do not follow the instructions given, then we are contradicting with the Dharma Protector’s instruction and create self-obstacles for Dharma Protector to help us. 

Aurore

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2012, 04:01:51 PM »
Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?

I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden?

I guess it all depends. A guru will never boast of his clairvoyance to his students. Therefore, divination methods has always been used as a tool by lamas to tell the future. I don't think they actually need it. Due to that a student may not know that the guru has the ability of seeing the future. Then I wouldn't consider it as broken samaya. On the other hand, if the student is aware and yet requires "proof", then yes ... the trust in the guru is not there. This is why all the esteem, caliber gurus will never reveal their true attainments because the student may collect even more demerit by knowing. Why? Because it's like finding and recognizing a diamond on the road, yet not pick it up. In such case, it's better not to know the value in the first place.

Worldly deities and spirits are also known to have clairvoyance. A spirit travels at the speed of thought. Hence, the spirit is able to perceive information that way and able to tell you the right thing at that moment. Worldly gods can see up to a certain time period. So let's say you want to invest in a business that has much potential. Let's say the result says it's good because the deities can only see up to a certain time example for 30 years. After 30 years, the business goes bankrupt.

The Enlightened Beings can see pass that 30 years and will advise not to invest in that business. The divination result given by any Buddhas is extremely accurate because the Buddhas can see beyond this lifetime and many other lifetimes.

triesa

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2012, 09:56:21 AM »
Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?

I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden?

I guess it all depends. A guru will never boast of his clairvoyance to his students. Therefore, divination methods has always been used as a tool by lamas to tell the future. I don't think they actually need it. Due to that a student may not know that the guru has the ability of seeing the future. Then I wouldn't consider it as broken samaya. On the other hand, if the student is aware and yet requires "proof", then yes ... the trust in the guru is not there. This is why all the esteem, caliber gurus will never reveal their true attainments because the student may collect even more demerit by knowing. Why? Because it's like finding and recognizing a diamond on the road, yet not pick it up. In such case, it's better not to know the value in the first place.

Worldly deities and spirits are also known to have clairvoyance. A spirit travels at the speed of thought. Hence, the spirit is able to perceive information that way and able to tell you the right thing at that moment. Worldly gods can see up to a certain time period. So let's say you want to invest in a business that has much potential. Let's say the result says it's good because the deities can only see up to a certain time example for 30 years. After 30 years, the business goes bankrupt.

The Enlightened Beings can see pass that 30 years and will advise not to invest in that business. The divination result given by any Buddhas is extremely accurate because the Buddhas can see beyond this lifetime and many other lifetimes.

What Aurore shared here is exactly what I learnt with respect to divinations given by wordly deities versus fully enlightened beings.

Enlightened beings can definitely see what is beneficial for us even beyond this life's time. Just want to add that I feel it is such a burden for the compassionate being like Dorje Shugden when many of us are seeking answers and miracles to our wordly issues for this life time only.  And sometimes the enlightened one may not give the answer that we want or hope for, and then we do not follow the advice and ended up in a more messy situation. :( Remember enlightened divinations is directed to getting all of us to get out of this cyclic sufferings..... So if you seek a divination, better follow the advice 100% whether you like it or not. If you are not going to follow the advice, then you should not seek for divination through these wisdom beings in the first place. I also heard that when you do not follow the advice, and later on you have more issues and come and ask for divinations again, the results will not come out clear as you do not have enough faith to follow it anyway.

I want to thank TK for such a lengthy and detailed explanation and it is worthwhile to re-visit this thread again.


christine V

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2012, 07:16:33 PM »
I personally like the detail explanation by Tk- thank you for the sharing.
The explanation that moves me " Of course one's does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation JUST TO DO DIVINATIONS. That would be a 'waste'. One should do with the highest of motivations as in Lam Rim Prayers or King of Prayers. The side benefit would be the ability to divine the future for situations beyond logical thinking or a logical course of action."

Since young, i have accompanied my mom to go for oracle. Well, as part of the culture; people in my country seek helps when they have no other ways, helpless and hopes that the oracle will helps. Some oracle give ridiculous beyond imaginary kind of advise to people to solve the problems, poor them. E.g: burn and drinks some writing paper and the problems could be solved. As i learning to be a Buddhist, and, reading on Dharma books, i begin to understand that many of the causes are karma. If we can stopped the causes we could have stopped the effect. If we could have a proper divination, based on Dharma- imagine the problems could have been solve from the roots. Not only for this life, but next life. 
By reading on what have Tk shared on the retreats. Is REAlly take a person sincerity , compassion to engage on the retreats as per mentioned. Therefore, the protector Oracle is more precious than the other oracle.
Once again thanks to TK for the explaination.

Ratna Shugden

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2012, 01:19:58 PM »
Never perceive any predictions (Daily/weekly/annual horoscope readings & divination results from any method of divination) & proclamations by any sentient being about your future & the future of sentient beings in your life, as phenomenas which will definitely take place in the future.

We can change our future through Dharma practice:

(1)By engaging in Vajrasattva Purification Practice or other Purification Practice with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we can mitigate the suffering which we will experience in future as retribution for non-virtuous deeds done in our previous existence & in the past in this lifetime.

(2)By engaging in virtuous deeds with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we are creating the cause to experience worldly & supramundane forms of happiness in the future in this lifetime & each future existence.

Our future changes with each effort in (1) & (2), hence results from divinations becomes inaccurate.
 
There is no way we can confirm with absolute certainty if the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination did respond to us.

It is possible for spiritual entities who are against the Budddha Dharma, who may also be karmic debtors of the sentient being who wants to know the future & the practitioner of divination, to masquerade as the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination.

We do not know when we will face retribution for having deceived other sentient beings in our previous existence & in this lifetime.





Ensapa

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2012, 11:28:00 AM »
Never perceive any predictions (Daily/weekly/annual horoscope readings & divination results from any method of divination) & proclamations by any sentient being about your future & the future of sentient beings in your life, as phenomenas which will definitely take place in the future.

We can change our future through Dharma practice:

(1)By engaging in Vajrasattva Purification Practice or other Purification Practice with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we can mitigate the suffering which we will experience in future as retribution for non-virtuous deeds done in our previous existence & in the past in this lifetime.

(2)By engaging in virtuous deeds with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we are creating the cause to experience worldly & supramundane forms of happiness in the future in this lifetime & each future existence.

Our future changes with each effort in (1) & (2), hence results from divinations becomes inaccurate.
 
There is no way we can confirm with absolute certainty if the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination did respond to us.

It is possible for spiritual entities who are against the Budddha Dharma, who may also be karmic debtors of the sentient being who wants to know the future & the practitioner of divination, to masquerade as the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination.

We do not know when we will face retribution for having deceived other sentient beings in our previous existence & in this lifetime.

On Ratna Shugden's views, I'd like to explain what I know about Tibetan Divinations and why is it done in the first place.

What I do know is, divinations can be consulted for decisions that would potentially be a huge loss for the monastery if the incorrect decision is made, or when a person's life is involved. Sometimes, following a divination result to the very end determines whether or not a person lives or dies. From what I understand as well, high lamas do not need divination to find out the right answer, but they perform a divination to covince students who doubt their abilities, or because they are humble and wish to hide their clairvoyance. The divination answer is usually the one that will help change the karma of a person and therefore must be followed through with precision.

gbds3jewels

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2013, 03:55:04 PM »
I never really get the purpose of divination having been brought up in what would be classified as a western culture. I know divination is very popular in the Chinese culture. Maybe it's kind of similar to the western fortune telling or psychic reading but reading this thread it's seems like a entire different thing. Anyhow I find it strange to have a practice that people would consult divination and let the result of divination erect the course of their life. I guess the reason I feel it strange is that where do one stop asking then if one start to rely on the results of divination to determine the course of one life. Or how do one rate what is important or not important enough to ask? In a way would not it become like an attachment and also putting the responsibility onto someone else to make the decision. Anyway it's interesting to read about the practice nonetheless.

maricisun

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2014, 04:21:12 PM »
If a person wants to do a divination he or she must have a very strong faith and belief in the Protector Dorje Shugden. Once a divination is being made we must follow it all the way without any doubt otherwise it is pointless .

Matibhadra

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2014, 07:10:32 PM »
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Even if Nirvana does not exist and we are all cheated by the Buddha, don't we all feel satisfied and happy by bringing happiness to others?

Nirvana is just a kind of happiness, an undecaying happiness, which, just like any other happiness, mundane or supramundane, is nothing but the happy result of bringing happiness to others.

And why is this happiness undecaying? Because it is the direct, non-conceptual realization of emptiness, which is uncompounded, not dependent on causes and parts, and thus undecaying itself.

Still, a nirvana is dependent on the mere designation ”nirvana”, and therefore empty of inherent existence, which is another source of happiness, peace, and relief for all sentient beings.

Matibhadra

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Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2014, 02:10:38 AM »
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I never really get the purpose of divination

It is not so difficult. Just open your favorite dictionary. The purpose of divination is to foresee future events.

Now, if foreseeing future events is not important to you, then, according to your own logic, nothing has a purpose anyway, because the fulfillment of a present purpose resides necessarily in the future, and has to be foreseen in order to be achieved.

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having been brought up in what would be classified as a western culture.

Any culture, Western or not, is all about foreseeing the future. We are all driven by purposes, which are to be fulfilled in the future, and such fulfillment has to be foreseen in order to be achieved.

Physical sciences are all about foreseeing, or predicting events. If an event is not predictable, it is not reputed as scientifically explained.

However, overpowered by preconceptions, someone may say that this or that future event cannot be predicted. Actually, there is no scientific evidence showing that an event cannot be predicted. Even Heisenberg's uncertainty principle points to a limitation of physical measuring instruments in relation to quantum objects, not to a limitation of knowledge in general, or of mind to that effect.

On the other hand, since there is nothing which is not dependent on mind, it follows that there is nothing outside the scope of knowledge, which means that there is no future event which cannot be predicted.

Therefore, it is just natural that many cultures have developed divination methods, which may be more or less accurate. However, there is no scientific basis to outrightly reject them.

Specially, as far as ”Western” or European and Mediterranean cultures are concerned, they have traditionally relied on divination. Egyptians relied on the oracle of Amun at the Siwa Oasis. The Greeks relied on the oracles and seers, and specially on their sibyls such as the Delphic, Cumaean, and many others. The Etruscans and Romans had their augurs and auspices. The Celtic peoples of Western Europe relied on their Senae for prophecies, healing, and weather making. Nordic people also relied on divination, which might be or not related to the runes. And the list goes on endlessly.

But maybe what you refer as the ”Western culture” you have been brought up in is actually the Jewish-Christian psychotic culture which, just like the no less psychotic Islamic culture, strictly forbids any kind of divinations, oracles, fortune-telling, astrology, omens, and so forth.

Indeed, the book of Leviticus (19:26), referring to oracles and astrology, explicitly commands that ”You shall not act on the basis of omens or lucky hours”. Christianity from early times considered divination a ”pagan” practice, and forbade it under capital punishment, which was extensively applied in so many witch hunts, the canonical laws forbidding divination continuing to this day. To Islam divination is ”Haram”, which means absolutely sinful and forbidden.

This Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) proscription of divination is a necessary result of their belief in an omnipotent god, and their rejection of karma. One's future, they believe, is not dependent on one's actions, but only and strictly on their omnipotent god's will.

Therefore, looks like your ”Western culture” has nothing at all of ”Western”, but is just the usual Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, and then Muslim) deranged, fundamentalist monomania, which has been forced through violence and deceit on Western (and other) peoples for the last 2000 years.

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I know divination is very popular in the Chinese culture.

Not only in Chinese culture, but everywhere it has not been suppressed by Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) fundamentalism. For instance, divination is an important feature of Tibetan culture (just read Milarepa's life), of Mongolian culture with the anklebone divination (shagai), and virtually of every single other shamanic culture in Asia, of many African cultures such as the Yoruba of West Africa and the Serer of Senegal, and was a fundamental aspect of Aztec, Maya, Olmec, and every other civilization of Ancient Mexico and Central America, including the use of entheogenic substances such as the peyotl, until, of course, the wholesale destruction of such cultures by Jewish-Christian barbarians (and Muslim barbarians in Africa and Asia as well).

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Anyhow I find it strange to have a practice that people would consult divination and let the result of divination erect the course of their life.

This is because you have been possessed by the fundamentalistic virus of Abrahamic ideologies, which rejects the dependent arising of actions and experiences; otherwise you would find just natural that one erects the course of one's life on the basis of foreseeing the results of one's actions, or on dependent arising, which is what divination is all about.

However, to the Abrahamically brainwashed person, only the irrational will of their omnipotent ”god” counts, and therefore they do not care about acting in accordance with dependent arising, or about taking into consideration the results of their actions, but only about showing absolute submission and subservience to the cruel, gruesome, chimeric creature invented by their own scriptures, which they call ”God”.

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I guess the reason I feel it strange is that where do one stop asking then if one start to rely on the results of divination to determine the course of one life.

Why should one stop asking about the results of one's actions in the first place? The only reason why one should foolishly dismiss such essential knowledge is a fanatical, superstitious belief in an omnipotent god, coupled with the resultant rejection of the dependent arising of actions and their results.

Therefore, until one becomes a buddha, and is thus able to directly see all phenomena of the past present, and future, one should constantly rely on dependent arising, and therefore on divination, in order to understand the results of one's and others' each and every action.

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Or how do one rate what is important or not important enough to ask?

Study the lamrim, for instance, and you will figure out very easily what is important or not to ask to a reliable oracle. For instance, which actions will ensure my own and others' happiness in this life and in all future lives; which actions will ensure the freedom from samsara for myself and others; and which actions will ensure full enlightenment for myself and others.

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In a way would not it become like an attachment and also putting the responsibility onto someone else to make the decision.

Since divination, and reliance on it, implies recognition of the dependent arising of actions and their results, and thus that one's experiences are the infallible result of one's own actions, there is no way that it could cause one could put the responsibility for one's decisions onto someone else; rather the opposite, it will only enhance one's understanding of dependent arising, and one's sense of responsibility.

On the other hand, reliance on an omnipotent god which is the sole cause of everything, even therefore of evil and of one's own evil choices, is the sure way to abandon responsibility for one's own actions, which is precisely what we see in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, where the most horrendous actions, such as those perpetrated by their ”prophets”, are justified as the fulfillment of ”God's” commands, thus putting the responsibility for their crimes onto such an imaginary ”God”.

And again, denying divination on materialistic grounds implies also rejection of the dependent arising of actions and their effects, whereby one will only blame others for one's own faults.

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Anyway it's interesting to read about the practice nonetheless.

Yes, and then the next step is to make an effort to understand dependent arising, and the impossibility of an omnipotent god, and then to assume full responsibility for one's own actions, thus rejecting the sinister shadow of the Abrahamic maniac monotheism, which for more than 2000 years has distorted, corrupted, and vandalized Western culture and other cultures.