Author Topic: Kopan Monks Divided  (Read 13465 times)

LosangKhyentse

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Kopan Monks Divided
« on: March 14, 2010, 12:21:50 AM »


Kopan has a large portion of monks who are of Nepalese descent. The other part is Tibetan. These two groups are having problems and not getting along. So Kopan now is not in a harmonious state. The karma of creating dissent in other places using the Shugden issue is now coming back full swing I am sorry to say. Many FPMT centres around the world go on witch hunts accusing other centres of practicing Dorje Shugden for sake of gaining Dalai lama's favour. It is very sad. It is selling out on Lama Yeshe and their lineage lamas.

Kopan should resume their practices as ordained by their root lama, founding father and Master Lama Yeshe. To abandon their practices in order to get in the good books of the Dalai lama will have only temporary benefits as their samaya with their root guru, Lama Yeshe, is severely broken.

What happens if the Dalai lama passes (sorry) and they have another lama teaching in the future, do they adopt the practices another lama teaches because Dalai Lama is passed? If not, then why would you abandon your practice from Lama Yeshe just because another more famous teacher (Dalai lama) says you should. The practices laid down by the founding father of the Monasteries, in this case Kopan, should keep their practices and not trade it in for anything if they wish their lineage to grow, practices to be able to confer blessings.

Just because Lama yeshe has passed away, FPMT should not just abandon their Shugden practices and adopt what Dalai lama says. If we keep doing that, our Monastery will have lost it's basis.

What happens if everyone does that? The minute your master passes, you abandon what he taught you to practice and adopt another lama's? Then when the new lama passes, you again abandon what he taught, and adopt yet again more new practices. That does not sound right. To switch practices each time your lama passes and adopt a new and more famous lama's practices IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. But that is what Kopan/FPMT is doing today. Hence after Lama Zopa, they will have many problems already for sure. It is such a waste that a great institution like that shows poor example of guru/lineal devotion.

I for one would never join in Kopan or their activities due to this break. I am sorry to say.

TK

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 05:49:02 AM »

honeydakini

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 08:23:55 PM »
TK - thank you for sharing this information. I have heard about FPMT being very clear that they no longer wish to practice Dorje Shugden and this is probably why the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe - Lama Osel - cannot be with them. They directly break samaya with their root teacher which makes it difficult for him to come back and be with them. I have learnt also that it not only makes it difficult for us to reconnect with our Lama, but we also create the negative cause that, in the future, we also are not able to receive or hear any Dharma, meet any teachers; in the worst cases of breaking such a sacred bond with our teachers, we create the causes to even meet with wrong paths and wrong views, that are opposite to the dharma. How frightening and dangerous.

I agree that it is really dangerous to "drop" a practice just because another (more famous) lama says so. Once we start saying that our lama is wrong in one aspect, then what makes us think that all the other teachings he has taught us are also not wrong? What makes us so sure, after all, that this lama is right? If our lamas can be wrong, then so could the next lama, and the next and the next... so then who do we listen to? We open up the door for many things to be "wrong" also. It also means that if one lama has the "power" to say that one practice is wrong, then it opens up the possibility for other lamas to also start saying another practice is wrong. What gives one lama more sway or power to decide which practice is correct or not? I find it very disheartening and frustrating to hear that one lama can say that one practice is wrong, which then completely obliterates all the other THOUSANDS of sangha over the past 350 YEARS who have said that it is a good and enlightened practice. That makes the practices very fickle and loses all basis of our practice.


DharmaDefender

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 10:12:25 PM »
I have learnt also that it not only makes it difficult for us to reconnect with our Lama, but we also create the negative cause that, in the future, we also are not able to receive or hear any Dharma, meet any teachers;

How odd that you should use those exact words because I was just conversing with someone who broke from NKT five years ago. I quote their words: they have since had a lot of trouble "putting together a practice" without the support, and "without the benefit of receiving teachings"  :(

Switching practices isn't just dangerous but at the most basic level, damn bloody confusing! I'd rather just stick to one lama who tells me one thing, and that's it! When you switch, you end up with a whole bunch of different practices that you cannot keep your commitments to...like people who it's okay to go from centre to centre, picking up initiations that their lamas didn't want to give them. Going from centre to centre just proves that the lama was right all along, that the student wasn't prepared to receive initiations.

Speaking of Lama Osel, do you think that due to Lama Yeshe's attainments, that Lama Osel can return to the fold very quickly when this is all over? Or is the broken samaya so great that even if Lama Osel wanted to, he could not?

DharmaDefender

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 10:40:19 PM »

"Lying, cheating, being sneaky and using people when you're in a Dharma organisation is the same as the karma of KILLING PEOPLE.

These types of people become cold, animal-like, and have tremendous unhappiness, pain and troubles waiting for them in the future AGAIN and AGAIN."
Tsum Tulku

Well, this does not bode well for Dalia Lama! Makes sense that his brother decided to recincarnate as  burro in Tiajaunia, Mexico.

I know you didn't post that to be self-righteous (because your posts never come across as self-righteous, and I'm not saying that in a smarmy way!) but I just want to point out that it does not bode well for anyone else either, not just the Dalai Lama. Just because we practise DS, does not necessarily mean we are perfect practitioners who aren't at risk of becoming cold, animal-like and suffer from tremendous unhappiness etc etc. We're all subject to karma, whether DS practitioners or not.

Geronimo

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 11:05:24 PM »
No, I was simply saying as he does that first of all he is human. Secondly, he is subject to the same condtions as everyone else.
Thirdly,it was his brother who repeatedly stated that he would reincarnate as a burro in Tiajunia.'
I pledged to find him as his friend. I took it quite seriously. Oh yes! I protect my friends and think myself loyal. Even though this has been an ongoing project. I am confident that I will leqrn to forgive my own idiocy and forgive what I believed were attacks from others were no more than my own maras.
Ultimately, at least I see the possibilities and not stuck in some emotional corner for years on end.
Nope! Not anymore.
Most of you are young and so fortunate to have so many books and quailified Teachers and Lamas attending to the needs of others. It was not always this way in the West, afterall we are just getting started.
 Think when you are my age and you look back. You'll be amazed at the Flourishing of the Dharma.
The tighter the world gets, the more the pot will fill all the cups and happiness will reign, because we are writing the future today, as we think,speak and pray! Accumulated Merit includes not only us, but all of these Realized Masters.
Wow! I feel better already.
Whatever mny karma might bring, I,at least know that I carry the dharma with me and this will help to endure any horrors or bad karmas.
One good Prayer is worth a thousand mindless recitations.
Try it! Certainly we have enough of whatever it is to be here
Makes me think that we could generate at least 270,000 Powerful Prayers from what I've read here.
Love Prayer Terrorist Blast Away through the concrete and flower pop up! Something like that![lol]
I thought Tsem was clear and thought of Dl lying and deceiving everyone is really too horrible to comtemplate. So make it a kinda joke to rub off the possibilities in  my mind for what he has done to others.
Plus, it says how important it is to maintain our vows, expecially when we are depending on each other in a Sangha Community. Not to be looking over your back, trust!
 I know I have had experiences with others in sanghas that broke my heart and made me angry.
So,Tsum Rinpoche put the fire under the seat and reminds us of the reactions to our actions in thought and deed. I do believe we can change bad actions for good actions and come out whole. One knows when the storms have swept across our minds. Becasue after it passes, we come to know the calm.
The Calm completes and if we are vigilant, whatever it was we did, we're not nearly as likely to do it again. This in itself brings a certain peace and knowing that one does not have to just allow the storm to last long or even arise in the first place. If it is in there, I think it best to get it out. Hanging on to stuff, will make you crazy and old before your time!
I observed Norbu holding and getting older and crazier than he was when he started out.Why? He was polite and kind and made me laugh and called me Old Friend all of the time.
He hid from the politics as long as he could,then after the Pultizer Prize, he really went beserk and paranoid, like Professor Hoffman seeing Nazi marching after him. I think the CIA turned these men into some sort of animals. One's who were taught to lie and deceive, spy on others, while pretending to some sort of holy men.This is what some of us confused the dharma with. Why? Because for years he never taught, but fanned his hatred onto us to project back upon the Communist. We did not even know what the kanjur and tanjur were about. He did not want us to know about the real Lhasa politics. What did we know? We lived in the country and simply worked side by side or in my case alone more than not. I had a John Deere Tractor, almost a diety![hoho] to build stupas and temples and mow the fields. One tractor is worth about 5,000 slaves. So Norbu got along like he did back in Old Tibet with the Serfs.One tractor worth 5,000 serfs?
 Imagine how that concept went over our heads. So removed from a world that was a medieval serfdom, we thought it picturesque in Tibet. We did not think of the reality.
  Anyway, lies and deceits sometime fill too many books.
I for one cannot express how grateful I am that I met Dorje Shugden and All the Other Dharma Practioners over the years literally saved my life and brought me sanity. Not perfect, but I'm working on it! Ever so much better than other times in my life. How many times have we been destroyed and recreated just in this life?
Grateful to be alive and accept my karma and do my dharma as best as I can without fear and worry about being a human devil. I think I forgave myself and this includes many others.
Be kind and if you get out of sort. Just rewind and play it again with kindness. It works everytime.
If we Practice the Precepts! Then relax, it's really all we can do, is generate love as best as we can. That in itself is a Miracle!
Je T'Song Khapa taught this is true and how to do it.
Amazing!
I am so grateful!
Being a Practioner gives my life meaning
Compasion for others is the Bodichitta
We are not alone
The Lamas prove that
We are together in samsara with rainbows and clear pure mind streams
If we want to Be!

« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 10:29:31 PM by Lhakpa Gyaltshen »

a friend

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2010, 01:19:36 AM »

It looks as if you were really back from the cold, friend.
It really seems that it´s getting better and better for you and that makes me so happy. I wish Beggar could read your posts these days ...
Best to you, always!


harrynephew

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2010, 11:43:27 AM »
it is sad to receive news that Kopan is in a disharmonious state. Again it shows us how much people cherish the Dharma and want to make a stand for what is known to be right and otherwise. I feel sad that members of the Sangha has to go through this ordeal. In times like these when we're faced with such difficult situation, is there a way to help? Especially in getting out our message of peace through the practice of Dorje Shugden?

I pray that the monks will get back in harmony in order to benefit sentient beings hungry for salvation

HN
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WisdomBeing

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 02:08:23 PM »

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?


I do wonder sometimes if perhaps those who are already practising DS are continuing to do the practice secretly, so it is not really that any samaya with Lama Yeshe is broken... Perhaps the practice just stops at those who have not yet received the practice - so it is "no loss" to them, if you know what I mean? i  suppose there is no way of knowing this and I am just purely conjecturing. Still, the repercussions for FPMT are massive because whether they are "old" or "new" students, their root lama, Lama Yeshe / Osel is not with them, probably by this broken samaya.

So how would this work? Wouldn't it take a massive amount to build back this samaya? And mightn't it be too late by then since Lama Osel is already clearly manifesting signs of going further and further away from his students?

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 09:55:49 PM »
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?



Very good points. I like the way you wrote it clearly and easily which shows you have understood 'the whole giving up on Shugden in kopan' issue. Kopan is just one of the more prominent examples. There are others who have sadly done the same.Thanks





thor

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 12:04:32 PM »
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?



If FPMT students followed the example of Lama Zopa and abandoned the practice of Shugden for the purposes of supporting Dalai Lama, that would be less damaging than going on Shugden witch hunts and creating divides in other pro-Shugden centres.

Imagine if Lama Osel did return to the helm of FPMT despite their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe. Imagine if Lama Osel practiced Dorje Shugden? What would the students do?

Read Lama Zopa's advice book carefully and you'll see that his message fluctuates from "support the Dalai Lama" to "repair your connection with your [pro-Shugden] root Guru". Conflicting isnt it? Lama Zopa is subtly sitting on the fence and I hope his students see that and lessen their hard-line approach.
 
You can't bargain with karma and samaya.


honeydakini

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 02:21:30 PM »
I found this article on the FPMT website, part of a much longer article: http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335

Among other advice regarding Guru Devotion and aspects of practice, Lama Zopa advises his students to follow His Holiness' advice and not practice Dorje Shugden. His reasons are explained below.

what is interesting to note is that throughout his explanation and advice, Lama Zopa does not speak negatively against Dorje Shugden but takes this approach of respecting the Dalai Lama and focuses on praising his qualities.

Dorje Shugden     
[posted Oct 2009]
Rinpoche gave the following talk on the Dharma protector practice, Dorje Shugden. First he talked about the importance of compassion and our responsibility for leading all sentient beings to enlightenment. To do that, we need first to become enlightened ourselves. In order to do that, we have to complete the entire path to enlightenment, the root of which is guru devotion. Then Rinpoche talked about the qualities of the guru, including the ten qualities from the Abhisamayalankara and the twenty qualities required of a tantric guru.

If you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, aside from the other qualities of the teacher that you should check, you should also examine the teacher to make sure that he or she is in harmony with His Holiness Dalai Lama regarding the practice of what is called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that the teacher does not do this practice. These days, that is an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in the future.

Recently, I also introduced a new guideline for the protection of the Dharma centers and their students, which is not to invite to the center teachers who do the protector practice and are therefore against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, this doesn’t include gurus who may have practiced the protector in the past. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I’m not saying that. If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion.

If those gurus who used to do the practice still had the same aspect now, if they were still alive in that aspect, they would also change. For example, His Holiness himself did the practice in Tibet for a short while, but after extensive analysis, checking many experiences and signs, and considering the advice of many other high lamas who advised not to do the practice, His Holiness also decided against it.

It is not only His Holiness who is saying not to do this practice. Before His Holiness, many other high lamas, holders of the entire Buddhadharma, also instructed their monasteries and students not to do this practice. After checking in many ways, His Holiness came to the conclusion that for the benefit of individual people as well as the world in general, he would stop doing this practice and also advised others to stop. Therefore, if those gurus who did the practice still had the same aspect, they would stop. Also, many gurus, many great teachers who are still living, have stopped as well, even though they used to do the practice before.

Even though many people, groups, and monasteries have asked His Holiness to change his advice on this, he has remained firm. Since he arrived at his decision through many years’ analysis, there has been no change; His Holiness always says the same thing in this regard. As His Holiness has said in many teachings, he will never change his opinion on this matter. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not Chenrezig, if he’s not Buddha, who else is there in the world that you can point to as Buddha? If His Holiness is not the Buddha of Compassion, then it’s a mistake to call other lamas Buddha, who are said to be incarnations of a Buddha.


Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 03:01:10 PM »
Among other advice regarding Guru Devotion and aspects of practice, Lama Zopa advises his students to follow His Holiness' advice and not practice Dorje Shugden. His reasons are explained below.

what is interesting to note is that throughout his explanation and advice, Lama Zopa does not speak negatively against Dorje Shugden but takes this approach of respecting the Dalai Lama and focuses on praising his qualities.

While it is wonderful to see that he still feels the samaya, by not speaking against the teachings of his Lamas directly by avoiding saying anything negative about DS, there is the worrisome aspect of his deferring to authorities alone. All the praises about the DL seem to be here simply "arguments from authority". It is as if he simply does not have any good reasons for swiping DS away from FPMT except that "this wonderful big honcho in Dharamsala wishes it, so can't you all just see how great this honcho is, and obey?!"

As I see it, while he still tries to bow to the tradition he received, he has nevertheless ceased to bow to wisdom but is opting to bow to the Throne. When Authority Figures become more important that reason and wisdom, then 'there is something rotten in Denmark'.

crazycloud

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Re: Kopan Monks Divided
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 03:30:04 PM »
The Dalai Lama is his Root Guru now, what can you do?