Author Topic: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!  (Read 4882 times)

Rowntree

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Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« on: December 28, 2018, 06:02:25 PM »
'Karmapa' Ogyen Trinley no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa. The Indian government is not happy he did not show respect to India for all the years he took refuge in India. He simply renounced his Indian protectorate papers and took a Dominican Republic passport. He could have had the courtesy to let Indian government know beforehand and thank them.

Quote
Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Dec 28, 2018, 04.00 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The already strained ties between Karmapa Ugyen Trinley Dorje and the Indian government seems to have further deteriorated with the government making it clear that it does not recognise him as the legitimate Buddhist religious leader of the influential karma kagyu sect.

The sharp put down, articulated by well-placed sourc status and the status and future of the Karmapa uncertain in India and seems to indicate that India’s impatience with his long absence from India has turned into a colder indifference to the leader’s claim to his “traditional” seat of the Rumtek monastery.

Given its apparent disenchantment with the Karmapa, the government is no longer seeing his decision to acquire a Domincan passport as a problem and is willing to give him a visa. This could mean that India will not accord much importance to the status of his identity certificate, the document commonly issued to Tibetan refugees, which also facilitates travel abroad.

There are legal and political aspects to the development. Since there are competing claims to the Rumtek monstery that are sub judice, India cannot pronounce on the Karmapa’s claim. However, politically, keeping the Karmapa in its zone of influence and supporting his presence here makes India a “guardian” of a religious leader seen to rank next to the Dalai Lama in importance.

The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognised Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa. In recent years, the Indian government had also shed its suspicions about Karmapa’s escape from China along with his older sister and a few followers. But for more than a year after Karmapa went to the US, he has avoided returning and has in fact complained that he finds restrictions on his travel irksome.

The rival claimant to the post, Thaye Dorje, who had been placed as a Karmapa claimant by Shamar Rimpoche, recently renounced monkhood and got married, diluting his claim since the title calls for celibacy.

The two claimants had riven the Karma Kagyu sect, though according to reports, an attempt was made to bridge the divide with Ugyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje meeting at a place on the France-Switzerland border in October.

Ugyen Trinley Dorje’s situation became tenuous after he took a passport from the commonwealth of Dominica in the Caribbean. Sources said Dorje’s acquiring of a foreign passport automatically makes the Tibetan identity certificate (IC) invalid. This means he would need a visa to enter India.

The Indian government, according to sources, have conveyed to the Karmapa willingness to issue him a visa. “But he has not approached any Indian mission for a visa,” they said.

Indian security agencies have been suspicious of him for years, branding him a Chinese spy, particularly as China so readily recognised him. In 2016, the Modi government however, eased travel restrictions for him and he was allowed to travel overseas.

This throws into confusion not only the future of the Karma Kagyu sect of which Dorje is believed to be the head, but would have implications for India-China and India-Tibet relations in the longer term.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?

Alex

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2018, 01:26:03 AM »
This certainly comes as a piece of shocking news because awhile ago the Tibetan leadership was hoping to be able to get Karmapa on their side to replace His Holiness the Dalai Lama when he no longer around. The Tibetan leadership needs someone that has almost the same religious authority over the Tibetans and Karmapa is actually the next best option that they can get. That is why they imposed alot of restrictions on the young Karmapa when he was in India.

Karmapa was pretty unhappy with what they CTA is doing and chose to escape to a foreign country and recently he decided to take up the passport from the Dominican Republic and that gave him even more freedom because he won't have to rely on the travel pass that was given to him by the Indian government which was controlled by the Tibetan leadership. He stayed overseas for an extended period of time and now he decided to no return to India

Karmapa has been complaining about not getting his education and his freedom is restricted. CTA certainly overdid it with their controlling and now they lose an important ally to have in their future. I am glad that the lineage continues to stay pure away from the control of CTA because their involvement had proven to be destructive.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 02:40:51 AM »
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The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognized Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa.
Unquote

The Indian Gov't is now publicly stating that the 14th Dalai Lama was WRONG in officially recognizing Dorje as the 17th Karmapa.

This is a direct slap in his face by the Indian Gov't.

The Indian Gov't is now turning their back on the Dalai Lama and his CTA.

This could spell the political end in India of both the Dalai Lama and his CTA.

michaela

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 01:40:41 PM »
For everyone's convenience, please find attached the original article

'Karmapa' Ogyen Trinley no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa. The Indian government is not happy he did not show respect to India for all the years he took refuge in India. He simply renounced his Indian protectorate papers and took a Dominican Republic passport. He could have had the courtesy to let Indian government know beforehand and thank them.

Quote
Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Dec 28, 2018, 04.00 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The already strained ties between Karmapa Ugyen Trinley Dorje and the Indian government seems to have further deteriorated with the government making it clear that it does not recognise him as the legitimate Buddhist religious leader of the influential karma kagyu sect.

The sharp put down, articulated by well-placed sourc status and the status and future of the Karmapa uncertain in India and seems to indicate that India’s impatience with his long absence from India has turned into a colder indifference to the leader’s claim to his “traditional” seat of the Rumtek monastery.

Given its apparent disenchantment with the Karmapa, the government is no longer seeing his decision to acquire a Domincan passport as a problem and is willing to give him a visa. This could mean that India will not accord much importance to the status of his identity certificate, the document commonly issued to Tibetan refugees, which also facilitates travel abroad.

There are legal and political aspects to the development. Since there are competing claims to the Rumtek monstery that are sub judice, India cannot pronounce on the Karmapa’s claim. However, politically, keeping the Karmapa in its zone of influence and supporting his presence here makes India a “guardian” of a religious leader seen to rank next to the Dalai Lama in importance.

The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognised Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa. In recent years, the Indian government had also shed its suspicions about Karmapa’s escape from China along with his older sister and a few followers. But for more than a year after Karmapa went to the US, he has avoided returning and has in fact complained that he finds restrictions on his travel irksome.

The rival claimant to the post, Thaye Dorje, who had been placed as a Karmapa claimant by Shamar Rimpoche, recently renounced monkhood and got married, diluting his claim since the title calls for celibacy.

The two claimants had riven the Karma Kagyu sect, though according to reports, an attempt was made to bridge the divide with Ugyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje meeting at a place on the France-Switzerland border in October.

Ugyen Trinley Dorje’s situation became tenuous after he took a passport from the commonwealth of Dominica in the Caribbean. Sources said Dorje’s acquiring of a foreign passport automatically makes the Tibetan identity certificate (IC) invalid. This means he would need a visa to enter India.

The Indian government, according to sources, have conveyed to the Karmapa willingness to issue him a visa. “But he has not approached any Indian mission for a visa,” they said.

Indian security agencies have been suspicious of him for years, branding him a Chinese spy, particularly as China so readily recognised him. In 2016, the Modi government however, eased travel restrictions for him and he was allowed to travel overseas.

This throws into confusion not only the future of the Karma Kagyu sect of which Dorje is believed to be the head, but would have implications for India-China and India-Tibet relations in the longer term.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?


SabS

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 08:36:01 PM »
Wow! Now the Indian Government can do recognition as well. I can't but help thinking if the Indian government was to go this way, is it in collaboration with the Tibetan Leader. After all, it was inferred that Lobsang Sangay had wanted the Karmapa to replace the Dalai Lama as the next religious head. If this is so, then it is obvious that Lobsang Sangay just does not have the authority or clout with India as he thought he had. Haha, how does one go against an enlightened one who has clairvoyance??

Also, the Karmapa has great wealth associated with his seat and as such, will this Karmapa be able to gain access to it with India not recognizing his status? It can't be just getting slighted by Karmapa's failure to inform India of his getting the passport of Dominican Republic that they would not allow him back into India. It is obvious that the Karmapa's return to India will not be smooth in this near future. Such a shame that religious figures fall prey to politics!

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 01:43:42 AM »
If the Indian Gov't is saying that the Dalai Lama's "Karmapa" is FAKE what does that really mean?

Are they now DECLARING that the Sharmpa's "Karmapa" is now the one and only true incarnation of the 16th Karmapa?

Does the Indian Gov't now "Officially" hand over the keys to Rumtek Monastery and the "Black Crown" to the other Karmapa?

Do they NEVER issue him a "Visitor's Visa" to visit India every again?

Does the Dalai Lama speak up against the actions of the Indian Gov't denying HIS choice for the 17th Karmapa?

What do the monks and followers of the Dalai Lama's "Karmapa" residing in India do with this bit of news?

The Indian Gov't is DECLARING that the Dalai Lama was totally wrong about his choice for the 17th Karmapa.

If the Dalai Lama can be WRONG about the 17th Karmapa can he also be wrong about Dorje Shugden???

 ???


Rowntree

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2018, 07:09:44 AM »
The Karmapa is ungrateful. How can he do this to his host of so many decades? No matter how unhappy he is, he shouldn't leave without a proper goodbye. He is also very disrespectful of the Dalai Lama who has kind of protected him from the Indian government due to the controversy. I am not surprised that the Indian government has made such a decision.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2018, 06:30:13 PM »
The Karmapa is ungrateful. How can he do this to his host of so many decades? No matter how unhappy he is, he shouldn't leave without a proper goodbye. He is also very disrespectful of the Dalai Lama who has kind of protected him from the Indian government due to the controversy. I am not surprised that the Indian government has made such a decision.

The 17th Karmapa is a "living Buddha" and does not need to bow down to anyone.

This "Living Buddha" does not need the PERMISSION of either the Indian Gov't, Dalai Lama nor the CTA to do anything he now wants to.

He is now a CITIZEN of Dominica with all the rights and privileges that go with that.

None of us truly knows the sufferings this "Living Buddha" has and continues to go through yet some "mere mortals" have the nerve to judge him.

The 17th Karmapa is now free from all of the combined politics of the CTA, Dalai Lama, India and China.

Please pray for the long life of this brave 17th Karmapa.

Drolma

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 06:38:56 AM »
The Karmapa was already very unhappy with how the CTA was controlling him and he was not able to receive the education that he expected. All this while, he has been living in a Gelug monastery, not even a Kagyu monastery.  Why does the CTA and the Dalai Lama want to keep Karmapa so close to them?

The CTA must have planned it long ago for Karmapa to take over the Dalai Lama's position when the Dalai Lama passed away. The CTA does not have the power over the Tibetans, only religious head like the Dalai Lama or Karmapa has the capability to command the people. Since the CTA does not have the Panchen Lama, the next best choice will be the Karmapa.

The Karmapa lineage has never been involved in politics before. It is not surprising that the current Karmapa feels so unhappy living under the control of the CTA and forced to get involved in the political scene. The Karmapa is rebellious in the sense that he ran away from the CTA, he had a meeting with the other Karmapa and he did not go back to India to participate in the conference as promised. This may also be a sign that the CTA is losing its power and will collapse soon.

Tracy

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2019, 08:27:29 AM »
I don't think the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares if the Indian government recognises him or not. If he is after fame, power and money, he would not have run away from the CTA and met up with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Meeting up with the other Karmapa could mean that they have to decide who will be the throne holder.

From the video that was once released by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he sounded very sincere when he said he does not want to get involved in politics and he only wants to spread Dharma. He was very unhappy in India because he could not get the education that he wants and do the things that he wants. He could be seen as ungrateful but I think he is compassionate in the sense that spreading Dharma is more important than the fame, power, and money the CTA can give him.

But anyway, the recognition from the Indian government is not important, they don't have the authority to do that. The Karmapa has no intention to go back to India and to be controlled by the CTA anymore. Now he has the freedom to do what he wants. The CTA has lost an influential high lama, their position is very shaky now.

Alex

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2019, 11:23:30 AM »
I don't think the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares if the Indian government recognises him or not. If he is after fame, power and money, he would not have run away from the CTA and met up with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Meeting up with the other Karmapa could mean that they have to decide who will be the throne holder.

From the video that was once released by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he sounded very sincere when he said he does not want to get involved in politics and he only wants to spread Dharma. He was very unhappy in India because he could not get the education that he wants and do the things that he wants. He could be seen as ungrateful but I think he is compassionate in the sense that spreading Dharma is more important than the fame, power, and money the CTA can give him.

But anyway, the recognition from the Indian government is not important, they don't have the authority to do that. The Karmapa has no intention to go back to India and to be controlled by the CTA anymore. Now he has the freedom to do what he wants. The CTA has lost an influential high lama, their position is very shaky now.

I agree with you Tracy. Anyone who wants to have fame, money and power can easily get from the Tibetan leadership. All they need to do is to give them any kind of benefits and the best kind will be monetary benefits. Once you get close to the Tibetan leadership and take 1 picture with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, you will be famous in no time.

Look at all those high lamas that that close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama like Sogyal Lakar the sexual offender. His Holiness the Dalai Lama's influence is that great that even after they found out that he is actually doing all those nasty things to his students, he is able to escape all the charges and went into hiding. If Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is a monk who loves fame and money, he would have gone along with CTA's plans.

It was rumoured that CTA wanted to push him to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. I guess they went overboard with their control on the Karmapa because they were so afraid to lose him as he is their best asset for the post-Dalai Lama era. I guess their plan now backfired.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 06:26:05 PM »
India, really did it this time, without worrying about the sentiments of The Dalai Lama and CTA.

CTA and the Dalai Lama had been grooming the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, for the longest time, so now who will they groom to be the leader of the Tibetans, in the absence of the Dalai Lama. 

Tracy

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2019, 06:40:34 AM »

I agree with you Tracy. Anyone who wants to have fame, money and power can easily get from the Tibetan leadership. All they need to do is to give them any kind of benefits and the best kind will be monetary benefits. Once you get close to the Tibetan leadership and take 1 picture with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, you will be famous in no time.

Look at all those high lamas that that close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama like Sogyal Lakar the sexual offender. His Holiness the Dalai Lama's influence is that great that even after they found out that he is actually doing all those nasty things to his students, he is able to escape all the charges and went into hiding. If Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is a monk who loves fame and money, he would have gone along with CTA's plans.

It was rumoured that CTA wanted to push him to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. I guess they went overboard with their control on the Karmapa because they were so afraid to lose him as he is their best asset for the post-Dalai Lama era. I guess their plan now backfired.

It is very clear that the CTA wanted the Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama since they don't have other high lamas who are as influential as the Karmapa. Historically, the Tibetan leadership had relied on the high lama to control the people, they don't have the capability to command or rule, this is one of the reasons why they lost their country. In the old Tibet, they use the commoners as slaves to make money for them; in the modern day, they make sure the Tibetans remain as refugees so they can make money out of it.

It was kind of shocking when the Karmapa released a video expressing his disappointment and frustration at his situation in India. He was under strict control of the CTA, his attendants are not taking care of his welfare. For example, the offerings given to him, he did not know where they end up. It could mean that he knew nothing about the money when he was involved in the money scandal a few years back.

His wish to spread Dharma is greater than living comfortably in Dharamsala and be the puppet of the CTA. His decision to obtain a Dominican passport and meet up with the other Karmapa is a big slap to the CTA. To preserve his lineage is his utmost objective, he will not sacrifice that for money, power or fame.

Alex

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2019, 06:27:15 PM »
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is current at a ripe old age and it will not be long until His Holiness decided to enter into clear light. Many high lamas pass away into the clear light around this age and CTA certainly knows about it and started to prepare themselves for the post-Dalai Lama era.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has been the most powerful and influential tool for CTA to do control the Tibetans and also influence the world to fulfill their selfish needs. They know very well that the way to control the Tibetans is through their lama.

That is why they have selected Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje to be the successor of the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd and illogical. In history, no Karmapa has been the successor to the Dalai Lama. The regents of Tibet will come into power until His Holiness’s return. It is obvious that CTA is desperate for power and they will use whatever evil methods to reach their goal and that includes twisting the system in Tibetan Buddhism and forcing a Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama.

Drolma

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Re: Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa!
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 08:25:48 PM »
I think the CTA and the Indian government have never expected the Karmapa to escape from them by getting a Dominican passport. The CTA has planned it long ago to make the Karmapa the successor of the Dalai Lama once the Dalai Lama enters into the clear light. However, it is never the Karmapa's wish to be involved in politics, he is brave to run away from the CTA.

If the Indian government does not recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley anymore, what does it imply? Does it mean now they recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje as the real Karmapa? Does it mean the Karmapa Thaye Dorje will be the official throne holder and he will be allowed to go back to Rumtek Monastery? If that is the case, it is actually quite humiliating to the CTA because the Indian government suddenly becomes the authority to recognise a reincarnate lama.

The CTA has not issued any statement on this matter perhaps it is too embarrassing for them to talk about it because their Karmapa has run away! If they still recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley as the real Karmapa, they are going against the Indian government. If they don't recognise him as the real Karmapa, they will lose their credibility. The CTA is stuck now.