Author Topic: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake  (Read 7793 times)

thaimonk

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Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake

This is a short but important video that provides an insight into how the Tibetan leadership thinks.

In the video we see Shamar Rinpoche sharing an exchange he had with the 14th Dalai Lama. For context, it is good to understand that at the time, there were two rival candidates for the seat of the 17th Karmapa; one by Shamar Rinpoche who was the most senior regent of the Karma Kagyu and had traditionally been responsible for recognising and enthroning the Karmapa, and the other by Tai Situ Rinpoche.

Tai Situ Rinpoche had broken ancient Karma Kagyu protocol and bypassed traditional procedures for the recognition and enthronement of the lineage’s highest seat. Instead of following well-established codes, he approached the Dalai Lama who acted out of his jurisdiction to support Tai Situ Rinpoche’s candidate, Ogyen Trinley Dorje. Shamar Rinpoche in the meantime had followed procedures and found another candidate by the name of Trinley Thaye Dorje.

In fact the Dalai Lama had no business or right to interfere with the affairs of the Karma Kagyu. The Karma Kagyu has it’s own well-established tradition that have been in place centuries before the founding of the institution of the Dalai Lama in the 17th century. In interfering with the affairs of the Karma Kagyu on such an important matter, the Dalai Lama set the Karma Kagyu on a collision course with itself, a predicament that tore the lineage apart until today.

In the video, we hear that Shamar Rinpoche approached the Dalai Lama to show proof that his candidate Trinley Thaye Dorje was the rightful Karmapa and further, Shamar Rinpoche appealed to the Dalai Lama to withdraw his support for the wrong Kamarpa.

It would appear that the Dalai Lama did not disagree with Shamar Rinpoche's evidence and yet, he refused to budge even when proven to have made a mistake. In response the Dalai Lama replied that he had already declared his support for Tai Situ’s candidate and could not reverse his decision. A number of points must be noted here:

(i) The Dalai Lama can make mistakes as he did in endorsing the wrong 17th Karmapa;

(ii) The Dalai Lama does not hesitate to act out of his authority even when there are severe repercussions and damage as a result;

(iii) That even when confronted with evidence that he has made a mistake, the Dalai Lama will not change his mind and amend his mistakes to avoid further damage from happening.

If this is a trait of the 14th Dalai Lama, it becomes a worry because it would mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on anything even when it is clearly wrong, such as changing his mind to adopt a different approach and strategy to the Tibetan people’s efforts in regaining their homeland. It would also mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on the Dorje Shugden crisis that he ignited by banning the ancient practice of Dorje Shugden. Many have said that the Dalai Lama miscalculated the damage the Dorje Shugden controversy would inflict on Tibetan harmony and also the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism in general. And yet instead of being open and flexible to changes, the Dalai Lama remains recalcitrant and as the result, the Karmapa controversy rages on, as does the Dorje Shudgen dispute and all the time, the Tibetan people’s chances of regaining their country slip away for good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0


« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:58:49 PM by vajratruth »

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2018, 11:04:22 PM »
Thaimonk
Quote
(i) The Dalai Lama can make mistakes as he did in endorsing the wrong 17th Karmapa;

(ii) The Dalai Lama does not hesitate to act out of his authority even when there are severe repercussions and damage as a result;

(iii) That even when confronted with evidence that he has made a mistake, the Dalai Lama will not change his mind and amend his mistakes to avoid further damage from happening.
Unquote
 
Your right Thaimonk in your observations about the current Dalai Lama.

The current Dalai Lama has done this to the followers of Dorje Shugden and to 5 reincarnated Dorje Shugden Tulkus.

This is a link to an article I posted here on March 7, 2018.

In the article I expose the facts that the Dalai Lama has recognized and enthroned 5 anti Dorje Shugden Tulkus who in their previous lives were all followers of Dorje Shugden.

As per your above quote he has done the very same allegations of yours to our Tulkus.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6030.msg65691#msg65691

Quote

Harold Musetescu
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Re: 14th Dalai Lama created two FAKE ANTI DORJE SHUGEN TULKUS
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2018, 04:01:32 PM »
Quote
Now we have the 7th Ling Rinpoche to add to the long list of "fake" anti Dorje Shugden Tulku lineages.

This is a link to a youtube video titled "The Dorje Shugden Controversey: The Dalai Lama and Ling Rinpoche".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZtuCRaVK7Q

The list growers ever longer.

1) H.H. Zong Rinpoche
2) H.H. Ling Rinpoche
3) H.E. Domo Geshe Rinpoche
4) H.E. Serkong Rinpoche
5) H.E. Kundeling Rinpoche

When H.E. Tsem Tulku passes away the Dalai Lama and his CTA will add the 26th Tsem Tulku to their list of fake anti Dorje Shugden Tulkus.
Unquote

Thank you Thaimonk for your article.

You were "spot on" in your observations.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2018, 11:09:09 PM »
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Harold Musetescu
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Re: 14th Dalai Lama created two FAKE ANTI DORJE SHUGEN TULKUS

« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 04:07:24 PM »

Quote
His Eminence Tsem Tulku has done an article on March 09, 2018 that in part discuss the topic I have written here.

His article is titled "Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje's Explosive Special Message".

Below is part of that article and is quote for Tsem Rinpoche

Quote
The Tibetan leadership also have a history of recognising incarnations of famous Dorje Shugden lamas on their own, without consulting senior Dorje Shugden lamas as per established protocol and tradition. As a result, we end up with two incarnations of the same lama, one of which grows up practising Dorje Shugden while the other doesn’t, for example in the cases of H.E. Domo Geshe Rinpoche, H.E. Kundeling Rinpoche and so forth. In other words, the ‘duplicate’ incarnation chosen by the Tibetan leadership grows up supporting their policies and agendas while the ‘genuine’ incarnation (identified according to tradition) and his followers suffer as a result of this confusion. Furthermore, the very reason the Tibetan leadership does this is they hope that very famous lamas who practise Dorje Shugden will be controlled and influenced into not practising Dorje Shugden in the form of their new incarnation, and thereby invalidate the lineage.
Unquote

That you Tsem Rinpoche for your insights on the tragic matter of fake anti Dorje Shugden Tulkus.
Unquote

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2018, 11:13:26 PM »
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Re: 14th Dalai Lama created two FAKE ANTI DORJE SHUGEN TULKUS

« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 09:48:57 PM »

Quote
H.E. Tsem Tulku has added a fourth name to this list of fake anti Dorje Shugden Tulkus.

The fourth fake tulku created by the 14th Dalai Lama is the 13th Kundeling Rinpoche.

The link below will take you to his website and the article I will be quoting from.

The link is http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/current-affairs/karmapa-ogyen-trinley-dorjes-explosive-special-message.html

Here are the relevent quotes

Quote
The Tibetan leadership also have a history of recognising incarnations of famous Dorje Shugden lamas on their own, without consulting senior Dorje Shugden lamas as per established protocol and tradition. As a result, we end up with two incarnations of the same lama, one of which grows up practising Dorje Shugden while the other doesn’t, for example in the cases of H.E. Domo Geshe Rinpoche, H.E. KUNDELING Rinpoche and so forth. In other words, the ‘duplicate’ incarnation chosen by the Tibetan leadership grows up supporting their policies and agendas while the ‘genuine’ incarnation (identified according to tradition) and his followers suffer as a result of this confusion. Furthermore, the very reason the Tibetan leadership does this is they hope that very famous lamas who practise Dorje Shugden will be controlled and influenced into not practising Dorje Shugden in the form of their new incarnation, and thereby invalidate the lineage. What the Tibetan leadership in exile accuses China of doing – enthroning a second “fake” Panchen Lama and invalidating the one chosen by His Holiness the Dalai Lama – is exactly what the Tibetan leadership is doing in exile. They are invalidating the actual incarnations chosen by the authorities of the Dorje Shugden lineage and nullifying them via duplicate ones. What is very strange though, is that the CTA so willingly recognizes the Chinese-backed Karmapa candidate as the rightful 17th Karmapa, when everything else about them is about rejecting anything that is related to China. Since they entered into exile in 1959, they have vilified anything Chinese-related as evil or bad. For example, they refuse to recognise the Chinese-identified candidate for the 11th Panchen Lama, calling him the “fake” one, and have recognised their own candidate. Yet, when it comes to the Karmapa, this rule that “everything related to China is bad” no longer applies. Who is the pot calling the kettle black now? Who is the hypocrite now?
Unquote

So there you have Tsem Tulku's views on the topic of fake anti Dorje Shugden Tulkus.

Unquote

dsnowlion

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2018, 09:53:46 AM »
In the video, we hear that Shamar Rinpoche approached the Dalai Lama to show proof that his candidate Trinley Thaye Dorje was the rightful Karmapa and further, Shamar Rinpoche appealed to the Dalai Lama to withdraw his support for the wrong Kamarpa.

It would appear that the Dalai Lama did not disagree with Shamar Rinpoche's evidence and yet, he refused to budge even when proven to have made a mistake. In response the Dalai Lama replied that he had already declared his support for Tai Situ’s candidate and could not reverse his decision. A number of points must be noted here:

(i) The Dalai Lama can make mistakes as he did in endorsing the wrong 17th Karmapa;

(ii) The Dalai Lama does not hesitate to act out of his authority even when there are severe repercussions and damage as a result;

(iii) That even when confronted with evidence that he has made a mistake, the Dalai Lama will not change his mind and amend his mistakes to avoid further damage from happening.

If this is a trait of the 14th Dalai Lama, it becomes a worry because it would mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on anything even when it is clearly wrong, such as changing his mind to adopt a different approach and strategy to the Tibetan people’s efforts in regaining their homeland. It would also mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on the Dorje Shugden crisis that he ignited by banning the ancient practice of Dorje Shugden. Many have said that the Dalai Lama miscalculated the damage the Dorje Shugden controversy would inflict on Tibetan harmony and also the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism in general. And yet instead of being open and flexible to changes, the Dalai Lama remains recalcitrant and as the result, the Karmapa controversy rages on, as does the Dorje Shudgen dispute and all the time, the Tibetan people’s chances of regaining their country slip away for good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0


Thank you Thaimonk, the points you highlighted are quite disappointing, disheartening and worrying about the Dalai Lama's character. If what you say is true then there is very little hope that the Dalai Lama would ever change his mind about the ban on Dorje Shugden.

However, there have been many plus side such as over the years his tone about Dorje Shugden has changed and apparently, people have heard him saying how can Dorje Shugden affect his life? Which is, of course, true since he is a Buddhist monk and highly attained one, well he is supposed to be Chenrezig, so how can Chenrezig be harmed by a mere spirit? It really puts all Buddhist master down if this is the case. And for years the excuse given was that his life would be shortened if people do not listen and continue to propitiate Dorje Shugden.

Then there was the change of tune telling the world we all have freedom of choice to practice and that no one forced it upon us... although we all know, especially the monks in Gaden who had no choice to pick the yellow sticks, that these are all just lies, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/not-just-a-simple-advice-but-an-order/
but what he said for sure helped make quite an impact in terms of lessening the violent abuse against Shugden, by at least 30%, if I am not mistaken.

Another huge turn around of events is when the Dalai Lama said that China recognised Panchen Lama could very well be the real one too besides the one he recognises and that he is very learned. Now, these kind of statements are not simply just passing remarks. He literally said it in front of the press... http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/dalai-lama-corrects-himself-on-chinese-panchen-lama/

So, I guess what I am trying to look for is that there is some evidence of change, some may be subtle, but still there is hope. And if the Dalai Lama returns to China, which is another huge change of tune and strategy... it shows the world that the Dalai Lama can change his tune, and I do not care what the Rangzen people are saying, what he is saying is pretty clear to me, "Dalai Lama advocates Tibetans’ return to China to capitalize on China’s prosperity"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dalai-lama-advocates-tibetans-return-to-china-to-capitalize-on-chinas-prosperity/   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=IN7HeHIU-5M

SabS

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2018, 04:15:03 PM »
In the video, we hear that Shamar Rinpoche approached the Dalai Lama to show proof that his candidate Trinley Thaye Dorje was the rightful Karmapa and further, Shamar Rinpoche appealed to the Dalai Lama to withdraw his support for the wrong Kamarpa.

It would appear that the Dalai Lama did not disagree with Shamar Rinpoche's evidence and yet, he refused to budge even when proven to have made a mistake. In response the Dalai Lama replied that he had already declared his support for Tai Situ’s candidate and could not reverse his decision. A number of points must be noted here:

(i) The Dalai Lama can make mistakes as he did in endorsing the wrong 17th Karmapa;

(ii) The Dalai Lama does not hesitate to act out of his authority even when there are severe repercussions and damage as a result;

(iii) That even when confronted with evidence that he has made a mistake, the Dalai Lama will not change his mind and amend his mistakes to avoid further damage from happening.

If this is a trait of the 14th Dalai Lama, it becomes a worry because it would mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on anything even when it is clearly wrong, such as changing his mind to adopt a different approach and strategy to the Tibetan people’s efforts in regaining their homeland. It would also mean that the Dalai Lama would not change his mind on the Dorje Shugden crisis that he ignited by banning the ancient practice of Dorje Shugden. Many have said that the Dalai Lama miscalculated the damage the Dorje Shugden controversy would inflict on Tibetan harmony and also the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism in general. And yet instead of being open and flexible to changes, the Dalai Lama remains recalcitrant and as the result, the Karmapa controversy rages on, as does the Dorje Shudgen dispute and all the time, the Tibetan people’s chances of regaining their country slip away for good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0


Thank you Thaimonk, the points you highlighted are quite disappointing, disheartening and worrying about the Dalai Lama's character. If what you say is true then there is very little hope that the Dalai Lama would ever change his mind about the ban on Dorje Shugden.

However, there have been many plus side such as over the years his tone about Dorje Shugden has changed and apparently, people have heard him saying how can Dorje Shugden affect his life? Which is, of course, true since he is a Buddhist monk and highly attained one, well he is supposed to be Chenrezig, so how can Chenrezig be harmed by a mere spirit? It really puts all Buddhist master down if this is the case. And for years the excuse given was that his life would be shortened if people do not listen and continue to propitiate Dorje Shugden.

Then there was the change of tune telling the world we all have freedom of choice to practice and that no one forced it upon us... although we all know, especially the monks in Gaden who had no choice to pick the yellow sticks, that these are all just lies, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/not-just-a-simple-advice-but-an-order/
but what he said for sure helped make quite an impact in terms of lessening the violent abuse against Shugden, by at least 30%, if I am not mistaken.

Another huge turn around of events is when the Dalai Lama said that China recognised Panchen Lama could very well be the real one too besides the one he recognises and that he is very learned. Now, these kind of statements are not simply just passing remarks. He literally said it in front of the press... http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/dalai-lama-corrects-himself-on-chinese-panchen-lama/

So, I guess what I am trying to look for is that there is some evidence of change, some may be subtle, but still there is hope. And if the Dalai Lama returns to China, which is another huge change of tune and strategy... it shows the world that the Dalai Lama can change his tune, and I do not care what the Rangzen people are saying, what he is saying is pretty clear to me, "Dalai Lama advocates Tibetans’ return to China to capitalize on China’s prosperity"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dalai-lama-advocates-tibetans-return-to-china-to-capitalize-on-chinas-prosperity/   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=IN7HeHIU-5M


Yes, there had been some turn arounds with regards to the Dalai Lama's stance. As you mentioned, the case with the Panchen Lama recognised by China is now accepted by the Dalai Lama as the real one. And he had also changed his tune to that China is good for the growth of Tibet and he wants to go back under China's rule. I certainly won't be surprised if the Dalai Lama changes his words again to accept Dorje Shugden as enlightened and declares his practice as beneficial for us. I do wonder if the Dalai Lama declares the DS ban as lifted and if he does goes back Tibet, would all the eminent Lamas go back to Tibet too? It would be like everything falling back into place after the great upheavel. Would it still be the grand Tibet with its many Masters and scholars untainted. Wishful thinking...

Alex

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2018, 05:20:14 PM »
His Holiness the Dalai Lama did not make a mistake. He recognised the Karmapa candidate from Tai Situ Rinpoche on purpose. That is why even after Sharmapa approached him to ask him to withdraw his support for Tai Situ Rinpoche's Karmapa, he did not budge and do that.

How can His Holiness the Dalai Lama not know what is going on within the Karma Kagyu sect? He knows exactly what he is doing. He knows that he is not supposed to endorse any recognition of Karmapa because he is from a different sect and there is no occasion where a Gelug lama are involved in the recognition of the Karmapa. But, he did it still. That is why no matter how much Sharmapa give proof and reason why His Holiness should stop recognising the karmapa, His Holiness will not change his mind.

There must be a divine reason on why His Holiness is doing this. Enlightened Beings will work with each other in mysterious ways to promote Buddhism. This is how they kept Buddhism alive for so many years after Buddha had entered into clear light. Most of the time, we will not be able to understand what the Guru is doing but we just have to trust because we don't have the wisdom to see it.

vajratruth

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2018, 01:20:46 PM »

[/quote]

Yes, there had been some turn arounds with regards to the Dalai Lama's stance. As you mentioned, the case with the Panchen Lama recognised by China is now accepted by the Dalai Lama as the real one. And he had also changed his tune to that China is good for the growth of Tibet and he wants to go back under China's rule. I certainly won't be surprised if the Dalai Lama changes his words again to accept Dorje Shugden as enlightened and declares his practice as beneficial for us. I do wonder if the Dalai Lama declares the DS ban as lifted and if he does goes back Tibet, would all the eminent Lamas go back to Tibet too? It would be like everything falling back into place after the great upheavel. Would it still be the grand Tibet with its many Masters and scholars untainted. Wishful thinking...

[/quote]

As obstinate as the Dalai Lama may be he must also know that the times have changed. When the Shamar Rinpoche approached the Dalai Lama in the video, the Tibetan cause was still somewhat relevant, the United States of America was still backing the Dalai Lama's exile government, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) and India was still playing hardball with China.

Today there are far pressing issues that dominate the minds of world leaders, the Tibetans are facing an increasingly impatient Indian nation and this is not to mention all the scandals involving the Dalai Lama's inner sanctum and also vital considerations such as trade with China. The bottom line is, the Dalai Lama is operating under very different circumstances today. Hence you see a softening of his stance and some hints of a wish for reconciliation with China, for e.g. recognising the Chinese Panchen Lama as the 'official' one; telling the Tibetan people that it is shortsighted to regard China as an enemy; making statements that division based on province, religious sect and political stance harms unity. In short it is a very different Dalai Lama that furiously demanded that the monasteries expel monks still worshipping Dorje Shugden.

In any case, there are laws in certain parts of China that prohibits anyone from creating problems using the Dorje Shugden issue. So the CTA and Dalai Lama can say what they like but of the Dalai Lama genuinely wishes to return to Tibet, then he has to drop his Dorje Shugden ban.

This post raises another thought i.e. that the perhaps the Tibetan people in general, leaders of the Kagyu, Sakya and Nyingma can take the initiative to repair the damage inflicted by the CTA's ban, on their own. Recently the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje met and decided to mend the division in the Karma Kagyu created by Tai Situ Rinpoche the Dalai Lama.

It is not known if that happened with the Dalai Lama's authority or not but there are many upsides. If it was the Dalai Lama's doing, then it would appear that he is moving to reinstate Tibetan harmony and will likewise abolish the Shugden ban. If the two Karmapas met without the Dalai Lama and CTA's consent, it would mean that Tibetan leaders are now making decisions independently of the Dalai Lama and CTA.

For the reasons briefly discussed above, there is a good chance for the SHugden ban to fall. Personally I think it will fall because the force that has been upholding it is weakening fast.



The two Karmapas met to repair the damage created by the Dalai Lama's unauthorised interference in Karma Kagyu affairs. This is in direct contravention to the CTA's 'Divide-And-Rule' policy.



Joint statement by the two Karmapas.


Alex

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2018, 02:31:44 PM »


Yes, there had been some turn arounds with regards to the Dalai Lama's stance. As you mentioned, the case with the Panchen Lama recognised by China is now accepted by the Dalai Lama as the real one. And he had also changed his tune to that China is good for the growth of Tibet and he wants to go back under China's rule. I certainly won't be surprised if the Dalai Lama changes his words again to accept Dorje Shugden as enlightened and declares his practice as beneficial for us. I do wonder if the Dalai Lama declares the DS ban as lifted and if he does goes back Tibet, would all the eminent Lamas go back to Tibet too? It would be like everything falling back into place after the great upheavel. Would it still be the grand Tibet with its many Masters and scholars untainted. Wishful thinking...

[/quote]

As obstinate as the Dalai Lama may be he must also know that the times have changed. When the Shamar Rinpoche approached the Dalai Lama in the video, the Tibetan cause was still somewhat relevant, the United States of America was still backing the Dalai Lama's exile government, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) and India was still playing hardball with China.

Today there are far pressing issues that dominate the minds of world leaders, the Tibetans are facing an increasingly impatient Indian nation and this is not to mention all the scandals involving the Dalai Lama's inner sanctum and also vital considerations such as trade with China. The bottom line is, the Dalai Lama is operating under very different circumstances today. Hence you see a softening of his stance and some hints of a wish for reconciliation with China, for e.g. recognising the Chinese Panchen Lama as the 'official' one; telling the Tibetan people that it is shortsighted to regard China as an enemy; making statements that division based on province, religious sect and political stance harms unity. In short it is a very different Dalai Lama that furiously demanded that the monasteries expel monks still worshipping Dorje Shugden.

In any case, there are laws in certain parts of China that prohibits anyone from creating problems using the Dorje Shugden issue. So the CTA and Dalai Lama can say what they like but of the Dalai Lama genuinely wishes to return to Tibet, then he has to drop his Dorje Shugden ban.

This post raises another thought i.e. that the perhaps the Tibetan people in general, leaders of the Kagyu, Sakya and Nyingma can take the initiative to repair the damage inflicted by the CTA's ban, on their own. Recently the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje met and decided to mend the division in the Karma Kagyu created by Tai Situ Rinpoche the Dalai Lama.

It is not known if that happened with the Dalai Lama's authority or not but there are many upsides. If it was the Dalai Lama's doing, then it would appear that he is moving to reinstate Tibetan harmony and will likewise abolish the Shugden ban. If the two Karmapas met without the Dalai Lama and CTA's consent, it would mean that Tibetan leaders are now making decisions independently of the Dalai Lama and CTA.

For the reasons briefly discussed above, there is a good chance for the SHugden ban to fall. Personally I think it will fall because the force that has been upholding it is weakening fast.



The two Karmapas met to repair the damage created by the Dalai Lama's unauthorised interference in Karma Kagyu affairs. This is in direct contravention to the CTA's 'Divide-And-Rule' policy.



Joint statement by the two Karmapas.
[/quote]

I agree. The meeting of the 2 Karmapas is a huge slap on CTA's face. Last time, a decision like this has to get approval from the CTA before it can be carried out. The meeting of the 2 Karmapas are not informed to CTA prior to the occasion and it is destroying CTA's evil plan to divide Karma Kagyu's disciple and followers for their own selfish reasons.

It is true that from this event we can see that Tibetans now have the ability to do what they want now. Perhaps maybe it can be applied to Dorje Shugden ban as well? If the High Lamas come together and say that they will no longer recognise Dorje Shugden as an evil spirit and therefore they will remove the Dorje Shugden ban. It is possible that this will work since the influence of CTA is now waning.

Tibetans should start to take their future into their own hands now and stop waiting for CTA to dictate things to them. They need to take charge and that is what CTA feared the most. They are able to do all the nasty things they did because Tibetans just let CTA do whatever to them and they just went along with it. If only they really think about it and use their common sense to think about the logic before agreeing to anything that CTA does.


Alex

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 07:55:47 AM »
Traditionally, Sharmar Rinpoche is the one who has the authority to recognise the next Karmapa. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has no authority to recognise a Karma Kagyu Rinpoche. How CTA utilises His Holiness's fame and influence in the Buddhist world is very not nice. When both Sharma Rinpoche and Tai Situ Rinpoche found a candidate for the 17th Karmapa, CTA took the opportunity to create a situation of 2 Karmapa by having His Holiness recognise Tai Situ Rinpoche's candidate.

Hence, the entire Karma Kagyu followers have been split into 3 groups and there is alot of disharmony and even fights between ordained monks due to the disagreement. This is exactly what CTA wants. Karma Kagyu as a whole is very powerful because of the number of followers and Karmapa is a very powerful lama traditionally. CTA are afraid that one day, the Karmapa will be so strong that it can overpower them. This is why CTA purposely create the schism in the Karma Kagyu Sect.

This is not the only heinous crime that CTA did to the Buddhist community. They also created a schism within the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism. Gelug is the largest sect of Tibetan Buddhism and there are alot of very powerful lamas in Gelug who has alot of followers. Now that Dorje Shugden ban is in place, the whole Gelug is not as united as before. See how much damage CTA has done? Very disgusting.

Tracy

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 09:15:55 AM »
It has never been the tradition in Karma Kagyu lineage that the Karmapa is recognised by Tai Situ Rinpoche, it has always been the Sharma Rinpoche who recognises Karmapa. Since Karmapa is a Kagyu lama, he also does not need the endorsement from the Dalai Lama for his identity. Different Tibetan Buddhist traditions have their own system to recognise their lamas, they don't meddle in the affairs of other Buddhist traditions.

When the 2 Karmapas issue first started, the CTA and the Dalai Lama should not have gotten involved in it. First of all, it is a religious issue in a Buddhist tradition. Second of all, it is a Karma Kagyu issue. the Dalai Lama has no authority in the recognition of a Karma Kagyu lama. Both the CTA and the Dalai Lama should remain neutral. By them taking the side, they have created disharmony within Karma Kagyu lineage and caused them to separate into different groups.

The 2 Karmapa issue is big but the CTA and the Dalai Lama have not shown any intention to resolve this issue so that the Kagyu lineage can continue to pass on without obstacles. It is very clear why they want to endorse the Karmapa because they are planning to have the Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. The CTA does not have the Panchen Lama, the next high lama they can make use of to control the people will be the Karmapa. The CTA does not care so much about the preservation or harmony in their community, all they want is power and money, this is very sad.

SabS

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 04:47:51 AM »
Traditionally, Sharmar Rinpoche is the one who has the authority to recognise the next Karmapa. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has no authority to recognise a Karma Kagyu Rinpoche. How CTA utilises His Holiness's fame and influence in the Buddhist world is very not nice. When both Sharma Rinpoche and Tai Situ Rinpoche found a candidate for the 17th Karmapa, CTA took the opportunity to create a situation of 2 Karmapa by having His Holiness recognise Tai Situ Rinpoche's candidate.

Hence, the entire Karma Kagyu followers have been split into 3 groups and there is alot of disharmony and even fights between ordained monks due to the disagreement. This is exactly what CTA wants. Karma Kagyu as a whole is very powerful because of the number of followers and Karmapa is a very powerful lama traditionally. CTA are afraid that one day, the Karmapa will be so strong that it can overpower them. This is why CTA purposely create the schism in the Karma Kagyu Sect.

This is not the only heinous crime that CTA did to the Buddhist community. They also created a schism within the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism. Gelug is the largest sect of Tibetan Buddhism and there are alot of very powerful lamas in Gelug who has alot of followers. Now that Dorje Shugden ban is in place, the whole Gelug is not as united as before. See how much damage CTA has done? Very disgusting.

Yes, it is extremely disgusting that the Tibetan Leaders could destroy their centuries old sacred Buddhist practices that so many Masters painstakingly brought into Tibet. Tibet was like the last vestige of pure Buddhist practices and now all these are harmed just within 60 years of leaving Tibet. Now confusion, discord and loss of faith is the norm of Tibetans and many had created so much bad karma that I dread thinking of their next destination. Disparaging enlightened Lamas, destroying holy Buddha statues, creating schism, greed, abuse of another...these are what the Tibetan Leaders had created. I am just grateful that there are still Lamas who courageously stand up for the rights of religious freedom and the rights of humanity. These Lamas maintain their pure vows and promises which keeps the sacred lineages alive for us. I wish the Tibetan Leaders will wake up to the pains of their people already and use Buddhism to promote true harmony and peace. What is wrong can be repaired as people are forgiving and wish for right paths of practices.

Drolma

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 10:20:45 PM »
The Dalai Lama did really make a big mistake, he shouldn't meddle in the affair of another Buddhist tradition. What authority does he have to say which Karmapa is real? Every tradition in Tibetan Buddhism has their own system of recognising a reincarnate lama, they don't seek endorsement from other tradition. Did Nyingma tradition ever ask the Dalai Lama to endorse their reincarnate lama?

The reason the Dalai Lama endorsed the Karmapa is for political reason. The CTA and the Dalai Lama know that the Dalai Lama is getting older and they need another high lama to control the people because the CTA is useless. Since they don't have the Panchen Lama, the next best person will the Karmapa. In order to groom the Karmapa and control him, the Karmapa was put to live in a Gelug monastery.

But who knows, after so many years of plotting and trying to make the Karmapa a politician, the Karmapa just ran away and never goes back to India! This is really a big slap to the CTA. The CTA think they have the power to control people, to do what they want, they have to re-think again. I bet they must be very panic now. Without a strong and powerful lama, the CTA will not be able to control the Tibetans. Sooner or later, they will collapse.

Alex

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Re: Karma Kagyu's Sharmar Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama made a mistake
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 01:16:41 PM »
The Dalai Lama did really make a big mistake, he shouldn't meddle in the affair of another Buddhist tradition. What authority does he have to say which Karmapa is real? Every tradition in Tibetan Buddhism has their own system of recognising a reincarnate lama, they don't seek endorsement from other tradition. Did Nyingma tradition ever ask the Dalai Lama to endorse their reincarnate lama?

The reason the Dalai Lama endorsed the Karmapa is for political reason. The CTA and the Dalai Lama know that the Dalai Lama is getting older and they need another high lama to control the people because the CTA is useless. Since they don't have the Panchen Lama, the next best person will the Karmapa. In order to groom the Karmapa and control him, the Karmapa was put to live in a Gelug monastery.

But who knows, after so many years of plotting and trying to make the Karmapa a politician, the Karmapa just ran away and never goes back to India! This is really a big slap to the CTA. The CTA think they have the power to control people, to do what they want, they have to re-think again. I bet they must be very panic now. Without a strong and powerful lama, the CTA will not be able to control the Tibetans. Sooner or later, they will collapse.

I agree. His Holiness the Dalai Lama should not have even involved in recognition of the new Karmapa. In history, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is never involved in the recognition of the Karmapa and it has always been carried out by the four regents and primarily by the Sharmapa. The Dalai Lama has no power or saying in the affairs of the Karmapa.

That is why His Holiness the Dalai Lama did make a mistake in contributing to the recognition of the Karmapa. He should have stayed out of it by not meeting any 1 of the Karmapa candidate because just by appearing in the same picture with any of the candidate will send a powerful message to the public. His Holiness should be really careful because he is a very influential and powerful man.

A Gelug Lama should never meddle in the affairs of another sect of Tibetan Buddhism because it will not be appropriate and it will create a lot of confusion. This is exactly what happened and because of the intervention of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, there are 2 Karmapas now and it confuses the Karma Kagyu followers.