Author Topic: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?  (Read 6209 times)

Pema8

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THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« on: September 28, 2018, 05:04:08 PM »
THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?

Pope Francis has pulled off a landmark deal by getting Beijing to recognise the Vatican’s influence – and his approach may impart valuable lessons to the Dalai Lama, should there be any hope for reconciliation with Tibet on the cards

BY SOURABH GUPTA

28 SEP 2018

The reigning Bishop of Rome, Francis, is not your typical stodgy pontiff. In the five short years since his elevation as the first non-European head of the Roman Catholic Church since 741AD, he has displayed latitude of mind, courage of conviction, and deftness of diplomatic skill that is rare even among statesmen.

In August 2014, on entering Chinese airspace during a flight to Seoul, he broke six decades of silence between the Vatican and the head of China’s government by posting a message of goodwill to President Xi Jinping. Fittingly, on his birthday later that December, talks brokered by Francis were announced that would in time lead to the normalisation of ties between the Castro regime in Cuba and the Obama administration. The US-Cuba agreement was signed at the Vatican Secretariat of State. In February 2016, almost a thousand years after the rupture of the Eastern and Western branches of Christianity, Pope Francis held a first meeting with his Russian Orthodox counterpart, Patriarch Kirill, in Havana. Francis’ millennia-spanning achievements are not one for the faint-hearted.

Last week, Pope Francis registered his biggest diplomatic breakthrough yet: a landmark agreement with the government of the People’s Republic on the ordination of bishops in China. As per the agreement, Beijing – 67 years after snapping ties with the Vatican – will formally recognise the Pope’s jurisdiction as the head of the Catholic Church in China as well as the final authority in deciding on candidates for bishops in the country.

The Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (CCPA), the “self-run Church” hitherto established and controlled by the state, is to be downgraded and reoriented. In exchange, Pope Francis is expected to lift the excommunications of seven CCPA-installed bishops and formally recognise them as the leaders of their dioceses. More broadly, a mechanism that enables Beijing to provide its acceptable slate of candidates and the Vatican to have a final say in selection will now be formalised.

The fate of the three dozen or so Vatican-approved prelates, some of whom are in prison, who are not recognised by the CCPA is unclear at this time. The larger hope, though, is that as the splintering of the Catholic Church in China is reversed, the churches above and underground will in time be reconciled. Perhaps, a papal visit could be on the cards, too.

Both sides stand to gain handsomely from the compromise. For the Vatican, its pre-eminence on all matters ecclesiastical in the sovereign territorial space of China has been formally confirmed for the first time by the communist government in Beijing. For the Chinese Communist Party, its overarching and “guiding” role in harnessing religious belief to “help social harmony, modernisation [and a] healthy civilisation” – a key principle of its post-1980s religious policy – is vindicated without having to cede (though having to share) control on key decision-making to an entity that is housed beyond its sovereign territorial space.

Now, if the Vatican can pull off a deal with Beijing, what about the Dalai Lama? As plausible as it may look in theory, the ramifications for the Tibetan Buddhist leader are more profound. And the bottom line is equally stark: while Beijing could in theory share, it will never cede control over key Tibetan Buddhism-related personnel matters, notably the recognition of tulkus (or “living Buddhas”), as long as the Dalai Lama remains in exile. And given that the Dalai Lama is double-hatted in Tibet’s theocratic political structure as its secular leader over a defined territorial space (unlike the Pope), it is all the more likely that Beijing will refuse to share – let alone cede – practical control over key personnel matters until the Dalai Lama returns to Tibet.

The failed effort in arriving at a consensual selection of a new Panchen Lama in the mid-1990s holds cautionary lessons. Following the untoward death of the revered lama in 1989, Beijing announced a search, selection and recognition process for his successor that initially ruled out a role for the Dalai Lama. Convinced otherwise by resident high lamas, Beijing reversed course in due time and accepted the involvement of the Dalai Lama in principle – if only to rubber-stamp its anointed choice.

By 1995, however, Beijing allegedly went so far as to turn a blind eye to a slate of candidates that its officially sanctioned search party (headed by a respected lama from Shigatse) had clandestinely submitted to the Dalai Lama for his prior approval. The process broke down in May that year, following the Dalai Lama’s fait accompli announcement of a young boy from northwest Tibet as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama.

Beijing’s essential bottom line remained consistent throughout: while the prerogative of the Dalai Lama could be acknowledged and religious authority shared, akin to the China-Vatican accord, the overarching guiding role over religion in sovereign Tibetan territory rested ultimately with Beijing.

Four hundred years ago, the great Qing dynasty emperor, Kangxi – a patron of Jesuit cartography, astronomy and engineering – had insisted that Chinese rites of ancestor worship and public homage to Confucius, being civil rather than religious practices, should continue to be practised by his converted Christian subjects. Conflating Kangxi’s injunction with an intrusion on the paramountcy of church doctrine, Pope Clement XI forbade Catholic missionaries from following the Emperor’s orders.

The episode did not end well for the Church. No less than China’s communist rulers today, the Kangxi Emperor refused to cede Beijing’s overarching guiding role over religion – and that too to an entity housed beyond its sovereign territorial space.

While one does not know if the Communist Party’s rule in Beijing will last as long the Qing dynasty’s multi-century reign, it is not about to disappear any time soon. The onus resides on the Dalai Lama’s shoulders to find a way to make peace and comity with Beijing – at least on matters that touch wholly and exclusively on Tibetan Buddhism. Dealing with the fraught issue of the limits of Tibet’s political and territorial autonomy is a different matter.

In March 2014, standing at the Unesco headquarters in Paris, President Xi Jinping extolled the profound impact of Buddhism in China. If a monotheist leader from distant Latin America carrying the Catholic Church’s dubious historical baggage can arrive at a principled compromise with the leadership in Beijing, surely the Dalai Lama could – or should – be able to do better. But for that, the Dalai Lama must heed the lessons of Francis – foremost, make one’s peace with and accommodate an antithetical political authority and, secondarily, persevere in good faith to realise this accommodation. Is his Excellency listening?

Drolma

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 09:49:44 PM »
I think the Dalai Lama wants to make up with China but the CTA doesn't want to. The Dalai Lama sent Samdhong Rinpoche to China last year to try to negotiate for something but I guess it didn't go well. To make up with China, it has to be from the CTA, not in the Dalai Lama's own capacity. What China wants is the end of the free Tibet movement, not just having the Dalai Lama returning and obeying to China.

SabS

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 01:21:01 AM »
Yes, Pope Francis had mend many fences that his predecessors had broken and created headways for the growth of Catholicism to many more places, including China. Religion should be a practice of mutual understanding and acceptance as the basis of all religions teach us to be better beings.

However, it seemed to be the opposite when it comes to the Dalai Lama until this "final moments". The ban on the Dorje Shugden practice had created such wide divide between practitioners and non-practitioners all due to misguided allegations that lead to persecution, discrimination and segregation of DS practitioners. If not for DS.com to provide fair view on truths of DS practice, many will still be in deluded state of mind to wrongfully hate an enlightened being and the DS Lamas who should be object of veneration due to their loyalty even in times of such abuses received from the non-practitioners. Now that the Dalai Lama is in his eighties and in not too good a health, it seems that time is of crucial importance for his wish to return to Tibet. I feel that the Dalai Lama had actually conceded much on his part but for the follies of CTA wishing to keep status quo. In their greed and corruption, CTA dare not let go to fulfill the Dalai Lama's wishes as it would mean immediate termination of sponsorships on all fronts. As such, CTA continues to antagonise China, putting paid to the Dalai Lama's dream as anything that CTA does, China deemed it to come from the Dalai Lama. China had often said the Dalai Lama had not shown sincerity in his wish to be non-political and that is thanks to CTA's sabotage. In fact, China is actually very easy to work with...satisfy their need to be in control and the "face" of looking in control. That's all China needs as it basically means stability of her country and the welfare of her citizens. After all, China is such a big country and I would say even the day to day attention needed for the fruition of their progressive plans are enormous without having to worry about uprising and such. Oh yes, definitely the Dalai Lama should be able to "KISS UP" but need to "SHUT UP" CTA first.

Rowntree

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2018, 05:28:57 AM »
THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?

Last week, Pope Francis registered his biggest diplomatic breakthrough yet: a landmark agreement with the government of the People’s Republic on the ordination of bishops in China. As per the agreement, Beijing – 67 years after snapping ties with the Vatican – will formally recognise the Pope’s jurisdiction as the head of the Catholic Church in China as well as the final authority in deciding on candidates for bishops in the country.

The Dalai Lama can never achieve this and be equally influencer as the Pope and the Vatican because Tibet is part of China. Even the Dalai Lama's reincarnation cannot be chosen and decide by the Gaden Phodrang. Comparing the Dalai Lama and the Pope is the same as comparing an apple and an orange. This news should be a sounding bell for the CTA and how insignificant they are and all the things they didn't do and achieve.

SabS

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 02:45:10 PM »

The Dalai Lama can never achieve this and be equally influencer as the Pope and the Vatican because Tibet is part of China. Even the Dalai Lama's reincarnation cannot be chosen and decide by the Gaden Phodrang. Comparing the Dalai Lama and the Pope is the same as comparing an apple and an orange. This news should be a sounding bell for the CTA and how insignificant they are and all the things they didn't do and achieve.

Although it is true that its a case of apple and orange but given the long history between Tibet and China and religion being the foundation of their mutual understanding, I think Dalai Lama could find his footing within the China as it is today. Starved of true religious practices during the Mao times, now China is rediscovering her spirituality. And the Dalai Lama being the most prominent spiritual leader in the world, it would be a coup for the Chinese government to have him within their land and within their "control" so to speak. Of course, the Dalai Lama's political astuteness is well known and I am sure that he could turn the situation round. What grabs the people's mind the most is either money or religion. And based on this, with the Chinese into the comforts of their living standard, spiritual pursuit will be next. So if the Dalai Lama plays it low keyed and just work to garner the spiritual loyalty then he could have the hearts of the people. After all how could a Buddha mind lose to that of a normal person? Who knows maybe when everything seemed in control, China in the future could very well be controlled (influenced) by a Buddhist Lama. Panchen Lama is already there within the Council and feted by the Government. Whatever it may be, the Dalai Lama needs to go back in to China first for matters to be effectual. But Buddha forbid that we get another CTA!!! Then destruction will definitely follow.  :-\ >:( :(

Rowntree

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 04:14:31 AM »
China's poor human rights record tells us that the Vatican's agreement with China may be repetitive of the  Tibet-China "17-Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" event.

Quote
A Tibetan view of the Vatican's agreement with China
Beijing's broken promises and human rights abuses do not give rise to optimism

Sang Jieja 
China 
October 15, 2018

After years of negotiations, the Vatican and China finally announced in late September that a consensus had been reached on the appointment of Chinese bishops and the two sides signed a provisional agreement.

As a Tibetan bystander, I wasn't optimistic about the agreement. I have been subjected to violations by the Chinese government for more than 60 years.

Catholics in China have been divided between the state-sanctioned church and the underground church that is loyal to the Vatican.

Now, Pope Francis says that he has the final decision on the appointment of bishops, not Beijing. The pope recognized eight illegal bishops appointed by China and admitted the agreement would be painful for Catholics who had suffered.

The Vatican may think that the agreement will be a success as it will make it possible for China to accept the pope as the leader of the Chinese Catholic Church and he can give Chinese Catholics more guidance.

But let us look at the results of the 67-year-old agreement between Tibet and the Chinese government before we become too optimistic.

On May 23, 1951, the Tibetan and the Chinese governments signed the "17-Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet", in which it states: "The central government will not change the current political system in Tibet and the inherent status and authority of the Dalai Lama. The Tibetan officials at all levels serve as usual."

It also promises to: "Respect the religious beliefs and customs of the Tibetan people and protect the Lama Temple."

In fact, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) never complied with the agreement. The Chinese army arrived in Lhasa and soon tore up the document and forced the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government into exile in India.

Another example is the "Regional Ethnic Autonomy Law" relating to Tibet, which in theory gave ethnic minorities the right to self-administration. But did the CCP respect this law? The sheer number of Tibetan protests, including the 152 protesterswho set themselves on fire, gives us a chilling answer.
The Chinese government has also signed the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights; the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination; the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; and the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid.

Has the CCP government complied with any of these conventions? China's poor human rights record tells us "no."

The Chinese government does not even comply with its own laws or constitution.

Ironically, the agreement with the Vatican reflects the CCP's violation of Article 36 of its constitution, which stipulates that "citizens of the People's Republic of China have freedom of religious belief" and "religious groups and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign influences".

This begs the question of whether the Sino-Vatican agreement is truly possible?

The agreement means the Chinese government would have to abandon its principle, and the Chinese side is very clear about the results of the abandonment.

Judging from the above, the so-called commitment of the Chinese government is only for political expediency, and the latest agreement will be torn up once its aims are reached.

The essence of the autocratic Chinese Communist government determines that religion is only a tool to consolidate its rule. Moreover, true religion has no space under the rule of the Communist Party of China — the Tibetans are convinced of this.

Since the Chinese Communist regime came to power, it has continued to suppress all kinds of religions.
For Tibetan Buddhism, they razed temples, expelled thousands of monks, set up party organizations in monasteries and Buddhist colleges for managing reincarnation.

For Christianity, hundreds of churches and thousands of crosses were demolished, the faithful were expelled and the Catholic underground church was suppressed.

For Islam, millions of Uyghurs were placed in re-education camps.
After Chinese President Xi Jinping took office, he intensified crack downs on religious circles, forced Tibetan Buddhism to "adapt to socialism", and enforced "a new interpretation of the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism".

When the CCP is capable of all evil, it casts doubts on their reasons for signing the agreement with the Vatican.

As the Chinese government severely suppresses all the religions, it is difficult to conceive that China will treat Catholic communities and its believers well.

The tolerance, compassion, and love of the Vatican needs to face the hegemony of the CPP, which is based on the Thick Black Theory — thick face and black heart — and kills people without shame and cruelly.
Over the years, people have hoped that the Vatican's contacts with the Chinese government can improve the situation of the Chinese Catholics, and that the Chinese government will improve its policies on all religions. However, from Xi Jinping's recent handling of religious incidents, that hope is becoming more and more of a dream.

Tibet is occupied by the Chinese government, which of course is not comparable to the Vatican's situation. However, the religious policy imposed on Tibet after China's occupation can be instructive and the Vatican must be cautious.

As Kung Lap Yan, associate professor of the divinity school at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, said: "No matter how much the Catholic Church earns in this matter, it will be lost in the end."

https://www.ucanews.com/news/a-tibetan-view-of-the-vaticans-agreement-with-china/83600

Alex

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 12:15:28 AM »

The Dalai Lama can never achieve this and be equally influencer as the Pope and the Vatican because Tibet is part of China. Even the Dalai Lama's reincarnation cannot be chosen and decide by the Gaden Phodrang. Comparing the Dalai Lama and the Pope is the same as comparing an apple and an orange. This news should be a sounding bell for the CTA and how insignificant they are and all the things they didn't do and achieve.

Although it is true that its a case of apple and orange but given the long history between Tibet and China and religion being the foundation of their mutual understanding, I think Dalai Lama could find his footing within the China as it is today. Starved of true religious practices during the Mao times, now China is rediscovering her spirituality. And the Dalai Lama being the most prominent spiritual leader in the world, it would be a coup for the Chinese government to have him within their land and within their "control" so to speak. Of course, the Dalai Lama's political astuteness is well known and I am sure that he could turn the situation round. What grabs the people's mind the most is either money or religion. And based on this, with the Chinese into the comforts of their living standard, spiritual pursuit will be next. So if the Dalai Lama plays it low keyed and just work to garner the spiritual loyalty then he could have the hearts of the people. After all how could a Buddha mind lose to that of a normal person? Who knows maybe when everything seemed in control, China in the future could very well be controlled (influenced) by a Buddhist Lama. Panchen Lama is already there within the Council and feted by the Government. Whatever it may be, the Dalai Lama needs to go back in to China first for matters to be effectual. But Buddha forbid that we get another CTA!!! Then destruction will definitely follow.  :-\ >:( :(

I certainly believe His Holiness the Dalai Lama can return to China if he chooses too. He is after all Buddha of Compassion, Chenrezig. Panchen Lama is now doing very well in China. He is giving teachings and initiations to the mass public and seems like he is a very capable lama. His Holiness the Dalai Lama recently also start to change his statement on the Panchen Lama and says that there could be more than 1 emanation of Panchen Lama.

He is indirectly recognising the China Panchen Lama while not going back on his words. All of these can be seen as a divine play. Even though it was rough back then when the whole world is wondering which Panchen Lama is authentic, he knew that China will boost their Panchen Lama if the Dalai Lama is against him.

True enough, China supported the Panchen Lama and he turned out to be a very strong and erudite master. He would not have gotten China's assistance if His Holiness the Dalai Lama recognised him as one of the candidates for Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama is an astute politician and everyone should remember that. The wisdom of a Buddha is far more superior than any mankind.

SabS

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 04:58:01 AM »
It has been so long since the Dalai Lama had said he wishes to go back to Tibet but the CTA is still creating problems for his path back. In front, they say yes they support the Dalai Lama but then they keep their rhetorics angering China. Such hypocrite and they dare defy the Dalai Lama in achieving his wish. Not only that, they are actually defying their people who also wish to return to Tibet. Many had already made their way back without waiting as now China is building up Tibet to be world class and keeping the charms of ancient Tibet. Many wishes to be part of this progress and to be living in better conditions than having to sell sweaters as refugees do in camps run by CTA. Keeping the refugees in poverty is a game for CTA leaders to gain sponsorships - easy money for their luxurious living and retirement plans. Question is why are the people still so docile knowing this? Shouldn't they oust the Sikyong from his position and instate one that really cares? So will the Dalai Lama be able to work with China to return to his home?

Alex

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Re: THE POPE HAS KISSED AND MADE UP WITH CHINA. CAN THE DALAI LAMA?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 12:07:09 PM »
It has been so long since the Dalai Lama had said he wishes to go back to Tibet but the CTA is still creating problems for his path back. In front, they say yes they support the Dalai Lama but then they keep their rhetorics angering China. Such hypocrite and they dare defy the Dalai Lama in achieving his wish. Not only that, they are actually defying their people who also wish to return to Tibet. Many had already made their way back without waiting as now China is building up Tibet to be world class and keeping the charms of ancient Tibet. Many wishes to be part of this progress and to be living in better conditions than having to sell sweaters as refugees do in camps run by CTA. Keeping the refugees in poverty is a game for CTA leaders to gain sponsorships - easy money for their luxurious living and retirement plans. Question is why are the people still so docile knowing this? Shouldn't they oust the Sikyong from his position and instate one that really cares? So will the Dalai Lama be able to work with China to return to his home?


Tibetan leadership is no longer a government that supports His Holiness the Dalai Lama and his activities. It is very obvious that Tibetan leadership now focuses on their own desires and benefits over what His Holiness wants for Tibetan's welfare. His Holiness the Dalai Lama had said that they will not be pursuing Rangzen and will go for Umaylam instead.

Rangzen is fighting for the independence of Tibet which is obviously impossible to achieve now. His Holiness the Dalai Lama said that they should go for Umaylam which is the autonomy in China. However, there is no effort from Tibetan Leadership to help His Holiness to achieve this. They are still raising awareness against China and bad mouthing them.

This will not help Dalai Lama to achieve his goal. It will only further confuse China on the stance of the Tibetans. After 60 years of doing nothing, Tibetan leadership want to stays the same while receiving donations from around the world by using the name of Tibetan cause. Money literally drops from the sky for them. All they need to do is to keep talking bad about China and talk about how pity they are to be dominated by China. No wonder they are going against His Holiness's wish to go back to China because they will not be getting any free money from anyone once they return to Tibet.