Author Topic: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?  (Read 17359 times)

thaimonk

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Why does Lama Zopa and The Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT) still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?

1. Since Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life, isn't he disqualified as a teacher?

2. The Dalai Lama said, those who practice Shugden will go to Hell or three lower realms. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does Lama Zopa and FPMT keep his statues throughout their centre? Isn't he a hell being? Why worship a hell being?

3. Since Lama Yeshe worshipped Dorje Shugden, that means all teachings, lineages, oral transmissions, initiations passed from Lama Yeshe to Lama Zopa and many disciples are corrupted. So since all that is from Lama Yeshe is corrupted, why keep a statue of him on the shrine? Why worship corruption?

4. Does keeping a statue of Lama Yeshe on the shrine send the wrong message to their disciples? Since Dalai Lama banned Shugden and banned Shugden lamas, should Lama Yeshe be posthumously banned?

5. Why does FPMT condemn other lamas and organizations that practice Shugden and yet silent on their own founder Lama Yeshe? Why do they still have Lama Yeshe's books in print and still selling? Why do they promote teachings by Lama Yeshe on videos?

6. Since teachings, initiations and practices from Lama Yeshe to his disciples in FPMT namely Lama Zopa and the older students are corrupted, why do they continue practicing these teachings and passing them on to new students?

7. Why do FPMT encourage new students to pay homage and worship Lama Yeshe's statue? Since the statue is placed on their shrines, it becomes an automatic object of worship? It becomes an automatic object of respect.

9. All pictures, books, audios, videos, thangkas, practices, statues of Lama Yeshe throughout their FPMT should be eliminated and then FPMT can become clean. Why do they not eliminate everything? Why the double standard?

10. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does FPMT ask the Dalai Lama to recognize Lama Osel? Is Lama Osel fake? Because Lama Yeshe practiced Shugden his whole life and he is supposedly in hell now according to the Dalai Lama? So why is Lama Osel recognized? This makes everyone contradict everything they say about Shugden? So does that mean practicing Shugden does not take you to hell? But Dalai Lama said it does? But Lama Osel is back. So which one is it? Is Lama Osel fake? Or Shugden does not take you to hell? Is Dalai Lama wrong or how?

11. Lama Zopa is recognized by Dorje Shugden (via the Dromo Geshe Oracle in Dungkar Monastery in Tibet), so is Dorje Shugden wrong by recognizing Lama Zopa? Lama Zopa is a fake tulku since recognized by Shugden? (read more- http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=49.0)

Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:58:28 PM by Vajraprotector »

pemachen

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The Dalai Lama said, those who practice Shugden will go to Hell or three lower realms. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does Lama Zopa and FPMT keep his statues throughout their centre? Isn't he a hell being? Why worship a hell being?






Based on His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama’s confirmation of Lama Zopa’s observations, Ösel Hita Torres was recognized as the unmistaken incarnation of Lama Yeshe. He was subsequently enthroned as Tenzin Ösel Rinpoche on March 1987 at Tushita Retreat Centre in Dharamsala, India.

This really confuses the public. If those who rely on Dorje Shugden take rebirth in hell or the three lower realms, so is Ösel Hita Torres fake? So if Lama Yeshe has returned as Ösel Hita Torres, so obviously those who practice Dorje Shugden don't go to hell or the three lower realms then? 

I find it odd that they still have Shugden lamas on their teachers' list, or rather, Lama Zopa Rinpoche’s Teachers as they wrote it. This list is on the same category where they listed the anti-Shugden "Collection of Advice Regarding Shugden (Dolgyal)"  ::)

Why feature these lamas who are supposed to be polluted and going to the three lower realms for practising Dorje Shugden? I really wonder why they feature these lamas on the website. 8) See the image below taken from the FPMT website: https://fpmt.org/teachers/lineage-lamas/

Let's see, there's HH Ling Rinpoche who wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden, Kyabje Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo who's definitely one of the biggest proponents of Dorje Shugden practice, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who wrote "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protector", the comprehensive text that explains Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, function and history, there's Kyabje Zong Rinpoche who practices and gives initiation of Shugden to many, including in the West (including Tsem Tulku, before he was recognised as a tulku). The rest, Tsenshab Serkong Rinpoche, HH Serkong Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, Ribur Rinpoche, Choden Rinpoche, Khensur Denma Locho Rinpoche, Khyongla Rato Rinpoche... almost all of them are Shugden lamas! So should all these teachers and their reincarnations be banned from teaching in FPMT too?


AshRao

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Thaimonk has raised some very interesting questions regarding the veneration of Lama Yeshe within FPMT. I guess the only reason they are keeping images, statues, teachings by Lama Yeshe is because it would invalidate their entire organisation, let alone their religious practices if they were to denounce Lama Yeshe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.

A lot of interesting points were raised about the fact that Lama Yeshe was a Shugdenpa, and if FPMT so fanatically denounce Dorje Shugden why are they not denouncing Lama Yeshe too. It doesn't make sense unless you realise that they are being hypocritical because doing so would invalidate themselves. And that is another point, don't they even realise that what they are saying about other Shugdenpa's applies to themselves since their very spiritual organisation was founded by one!

It's really absurd if you think about it. Ask an ordinary FPMT member what they think about Dorje Shugden and be ready for a hounding diatribe against practitioners. But ask them about Lama Yeshe and all they talk about is multicoloured clouds and rainbows. Lama Yeshe was definitely a great being, a light in the world for sure AND he was a Shugdenpa. But FPMT simply want to brush that under the carpet in order to give a facade of keeping up with the Joneses. A real shame if you ask me. Lama Yeshe should be celebrated for his entire being, not just the parts of his life that were politically correct according to today's standards.

I leave you with another photo of that same statue I think. Its beautiful and depressing at the same. Beautiful to see Lama Zopa venerating Lama Yeshe, but depressing to know what has happened to Lama Yeshe's legacy of Dorje Shugden practice.

aboutthetruth

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Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.

pemachen

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Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.


You have said the honest truth. I wish FPMT would really reflect this about their founding lamas lineage practice.

 Lama Zopa said:

Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances.




Some other people couldn't keep mum anymore when it comes to FPMT.



More haunting pictures and stories here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/

Big Uncle

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This is true, what FPMT is doing with promoting the worship of Lama Yeshe while condemning his lineage and practice of Dorje Shugden is contradictory at the very least. Its very obvious that FPMT broke their samaya and its no wonder Lama Osel, Lama Yeshe's incarnation is unable to manifest any Dharma work in this lifetime. It is very obvious that FPMT's samaya is in taters. They should really do something to restore things.

Alex

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Thaimonk has raised some very interesting questions regarding the veneration of Lama Yeshe within FPMT. I guess the only reason they are keeping images, statues, teachings by Lama Yeshe is because it would invalidate their entire organisation, let alone their religious practices if they were to denounce Lama Yeshe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.

A lot of interesting points were raised about the fact that Lama Yeshe was a Shugdenpa, and if FPMT so fanatically denounce Dorje Shugden why are they not denouncing Lama Yeshe too. It doesn't make sense unless you realise that they are being hypocritical because doing so would invalidate themselves. And that is another point, don't they even realise that what they are saying about other Shugdenpa's applies to themselves since their very spiritual organisation was founded by one!

It's really absurd if you think about it. Ask an ordinary FPMT member what they think about Dorje Shugden and be ready for a hounding diatribe against practitioners. But ask them about Lama Yeshe and all they talk about is multicoloured clouds and rainbows. Lama Yeshe was definitely a great being, a light in the world for sure AND he was a Shugdenpa. But FPMT simply want to brush that under the carpet in order to give a facade of keeping up with the Joneses. A real shame if you ask me. Lama Yeshe should be celebrated for his entire being, not just the parts of his life that were politically correct according to today's standards.

I leave you with another photo of that same statue I think. Its beautiful and depressing at the same. Beautiful to see Lama Zopa venerating Lama Yeshe, but depressing to know what has happened to Lama Yeshe's legacy of Dorje Shugden practice.

I agree with AshRao. The reason they are keeping all those images, statues, and teachings by their founder Lama Yeshe is that if they invalidate their own founder, they are actually directly invalidating their entire organization, practice, and lineage. They would not risk having their center to be called demon worshipping center, would they?  It is not logical for them to invalidate their founder but yet keep practicing his teachings.

In Tibetan Buddhism, we put great importance in the lineage and to ensure the lineage is authentic and unbroken. The lineage is very important because it is where the blessings will come through from Buddha Shakyamuni and lineage masters. It makes sure the teachings are from an authentic source and not made up by someone who had a dream or vision.

Lama Yeshe is well known to be a Dorje Shugden practitioners and they made a real life statue of him to be placed on their altar. Why are they making a statue of a demon practitioner to be placed on their altar? Did they just conveniently forget the fact that their founder is a Dorje Shugden practitioner? So they continued their practice, and their centers but turning a blind eye on the fact that their organization is founded by one of the most famous Dorje Shugden Lama out there?

It is amazing how FPMT can just look past that and pretend everything is fine when they had broken their samaya with their founder, Lama Yeshe.

Here is another picture of a real-life statue of a younger version of Lama Yeshe that will be installed at Vajrapani Institute’s new gompa.

dsnowlion

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Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.


You have said the honest truth. I wish FPMT would really reflect this about their founding lamas lineage practice.

 Lama Zopa said:

Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances.




Some other people couldn't keep mum anymore when it comes to FPMT.



More haunting pictures and stories here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/


This is truly so disappointing to see Lama Yeshe's hard work and pure motivation to spread the dharma via FPMT go down the drain because of politics. It is so sad that Lama Yeshe's students picked politics, wealth and fame over their own Lama who was the founder of FPMT.

Yes Thaimonk sure brought up some very good & interesting questions. Why would you (Lama Zopa & FPMT) condemn your very own teacher, spiritual master, spiritual father's practice and yet have his statue all over your centre? You are worshipping a Shugden Lama, so how is that okay and considered legit at all?

Why discriminate and condemn other Shugdenpas? Seems VERY hypocritical. So this shows FPMT is just all about politics not real Dharma. SAD :'(

phyag na rlangs pa

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Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything.

Thaimonk has raised some important points that show how Lama Zopa and FPMT's advice on Dorje Shugden show how bigoted they are.

It's evident from Lama Zopa's writings on FPMT sites that Dorje Shugden as Lama Yeshe's main protector has protected them and increased their growth as a Dharma institution.

Quote
If you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, aside from the other qualities of the teacher that you should check, you should also examine the teacher to make sure that he or she is in harmony with His Holiness Dalai Lama regarding the practice of what is called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that the teacher does not do this practice. These days, that is an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in the future.

For Lama Zopa to advise people to check that their teachers do not practice Shugden while his own teacher was one of the most devoted Dorje Shugden lamas has to be among the most hypocrite things to do.

Quote
If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion.

Lama Zopa should take his own advice on guru devotion - on how a student should not criticise his teacher or give them up is not only totally incorrect but will create negative karma. By Lama Zopa rejecting Lama Yeshe's Dorje Shugden practice, he has already rejected Lama Yeshe!

How does one fully accept the guru as an object of refuge, and confess love and devotion to the guru but at the same time think and say, "No, that thing the guru does is not correct."? Is this Lama Zopa's version on guru devotion? What a fake!

In Tibetan Buddhism, the qualities of a lama is often reflected on their practices, their yidams and the protectors they propitiate. FPMT's lineage stems from a lineage of Dorje Shugden lamas yet they publicly denounce Dorje Shugden lamas on their websites. If FPMT is proud of their lineage, they should be promoting the practices of the lamas in their lineage for it's those practices such as Dorje Shugden protector practice that have benefited them for so many decades.

I wonder when Lama Zopa visits the FPMT's Vajrapani Institute goma and sees 1,000 statues of Lama Yeshe, does he see 1,000 statues of Dorje Shugden?

If Shugden lamas, as Lama Zopa says, will take rebirth in hell, then I wonder what realm Lama Zopa will take rebirth in for:
1. Breaking his samaya with Lama Yeshe
2. Creating schism among the sangha community
3. Use the guru he broke samaya with to get donations

michaela

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I find it very strange that a huge established Dharma center like FPMT, which was established by a Shugden lama, is so obsessed with being "clean"! Whether individual practitioners decide to practice Dorje Shugden or not, it is up to them.

But there is something not right with FPMT's obsession to appear "clean" by not practicing Dorje Shugden and tried to erase the Dorje Shugden heritage from their center. Lama Yeshe had relied on Dorje Shugden. Lama Zopa also had relied on Dorje Shugden. So why do they try to erase the traces of the practice by their own lama?

Why the students of FPMT could not see the contradiction in the Dalai Lama's statements. If Dorje Shugden practitioners are doomed to the lower realm, why did the Dalai Lama recognize the reincarnation of Lama Osel? Isn't that contradicting his own word?

Just something for FPMT to contemplate.

Tracy

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We can see there are contradictions here in the anti-Shugden camp.

1. Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden practitioner. If according to the Dalai Lama's theory that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, Lama Yeshe should be born in the three lower realms, why did the Dalai Lama recognise his reincarnation? If the reincarnation is real, it just means Dorje Shugden is not a spirit.

2. While the FPMT and other Gelug monasteries don't allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to participate in their Dharma teachings or activities, their own teachers actually received the teachings from Dorje Shugden lamas. For example, Lama Zopa, many of his teachers such as Lama Yeshe, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, etc were strong Dorje Shugden practitioners. If he has received teachings from Dorje Shugden lamas, then what he is teaching now would be corrupted. He should just close down all his centers.

3. Lama Zopa should not worship or have his students worship Lama Yeshe's statue. Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden practitioner, why does Lama Zopa still worship a spirit worshiper? This is very confusing. If he has such devotion for Lama Yeshe, he should not have banned Dorje Shugden practice and discriminated Dorje Shugden practitioners. It is either he is completely against it, so he has to remove everything related to Lama Yeshe or admit that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit.

4. Lama Zopa should give an explanation to the students why when he said Dorje Shugden is a spirit but yet all FPMT centers still keep Lama Yeshe's statues and spread his teachings.

I personally think Lama Zopa knows Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, he might still be practising Dorje Shugden secretly. Perhaps he has made a promise to Lama Yeshe to protect their Dharma centers and don't go against the Dalai Lama. What he is doing now, is merely to keep his promise to his guru. Lama Yeshe as a highly attained lama, he must have known there would a ban on Dorje Shugden and given instruction to Lama Zope before he entered into clear light. By still worshiping Lama Yeshe and spreading his teachings, Lama Zopa is indirectly telling us Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, this might be the hidden message he wants everyone to know!

SabS

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Yes, it is indeed strange that FPMT should keep the statue of Lama Yeshe on the altar where he bestows blessings on the practitioners? Being a Shugden practitioner, how can Lama Yeshe bestow blessings on the disciples if they deem Dorje Shugden to be evil? Being a lineage master that brought the practices to their centre, it just doesn't make sense to give up on their Guru and keep their practices. What blessings or attainments can they get from their practices? The most direct question would be how can the Dalai Lama recognise Lama Osel as the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe if Dorje Shugden practice will bring him to hell? Weird, weird, weird. Contradiction, hypocrisy?? Certainly no valid explanation at all. Lama Zopa had received the Dorje Shugden practice from his Guru, Lama Yeshe and one of the promise is to keep the practice close to heart and never give up. So did he break his Guru Samaya to look good and in line with the Tibetan Leaders or is he still a closet practitioner?

I find it interesting what Big Uncle said :
"Its very obvious that FPMT broke their samaya and its no wonder Lama Osel, Lama Yeshe's incarnation is unable to manifest any Dharma work in this lifetime. It is very obvious that FPMT's samaya is in taters. They should really do something to restore things." - Is that why Lama Osel is not interested in donning the robes and teachings to the disciples? I guess then Lama Yeshe's legacy is in taters. Lama Osel as a Western Monk would had been a very powerful Guru/Lama due his reach capacity to the Westerners. He would have been a living proof to the Westerners that it is possible to gain attainments through practice and realisatons. What a shame really!!

vajratruth

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When I think of the FPMT and Lama Zopa Rinpoche, I cannot help but have this image of a huge and impressive oak tree that is hollowing out from the inside and rotting at the roots, beneath the surface. And I say this based on what I can gather from teachings from the Lama Yeshe's Archives itself.

When I first started to become interested in Tibetan Buddhism, there were scant information that I found to be reliable and consistent and with comprehensive information. There two resources I found which were helpful were lamayeshe.com and tsemrinpoche.com. Frankly after I heard about the Dorje Shugden ban, I stopped relying on lamayeshe.com because on the one hand Lama Yeshe was hailed by the FPMT and even Lama Zopa as a Buddha and on the other hand, they regard him as a fallen teacher because he was a keen practitioners of the deity they now regard as "dolgyal" apparently [to them now] a malicious deity and a common river ghost. I found these 2 thoughts disturbingly inconsistent.

In fact, a number of things about Lama Zopa and FPMT disturbing:

1. I read on numerous occasions that Lama Yeshe would never start anything important before consulting and propitiating this "ghost" including asking for this dolgyal's help to build what is today the FPMT. That got me stumped! Why would a malicious river ghost help Lama Yeshe build what was then a Buddhist fortress that preaches Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings? Wouldn't helping lama Yeshe build a Dharma institute be the act of a being who is synonymous with the dharma and not the anti-dharma? I mean a malicious being would surely wish to see any institution propagating the dharma fail or become destroyed.

2. As a new student of Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage, one of the first texts I was taught was the Yön-ten-shir-gyur-ma. In fact, it was taught by Khunu Rinpoche and translated by Lama Zopa to the students in Nepal in 1975! And the very first line said:

The foundation of all good qualities is the kind and venerable guru;
Correct devotion to him is the root of the path.
By clearly seeing this and applying great effort,
Please bless me to rely upon him with great respect.


And a few stanzas later, I read this for the first time which moved me deeply:

At that time, the basis of accomplishing the two attainments
Is keeping pure vows and samaya.
Having become firmly convinced of this,
Please bless me to protect these vows and pledges like my life.


I was told that the above stanzas meant that the foundation for Bodhicitta and Wisdom i.e. the two pre-requisites for enlightenment, is to keep the vows and commitments made to especially to the Guru and to guard these with our lives!

So why did Lama Zopa teach this key practice in 1975 and then go on to break his commitments to his Guru and the very Dharma Protector who must have also be one with his Guru, Lama Yeshe, after it became politically correct to do so??? So, what is it - vows or commitments or become sycophantically and politically correct? And why does Lama Zopa now prevent FPMT students from practicing this key "foundation" of Vajrayana? Why does the FPMT claim to follow Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings even though they have demolished the foundations Tsongkhapa said to establish and protect with their lives?

This instructions were written by Lama Tsongkhapa himself! Lama Zopa's abandonment of his teacher's practice of Dorje Shugden and encouraging/forcing others to do so means that, not only does he think Lama Yeshe was wrong but also that Lama Tsongkhapa was wrong. Lama Tsongkhapa did not teach "...please bless me to protect these vows and pledges until it became financially and politically beneficial to break them..."

If the FPMT no longer trusts Lama Tsongkhapa's sintructions, why not tear down FPMT and start Lama Zopa own lineage that cherry picks what teachings suit them and discard what doesn't. Why even keep LamaYeshe.com up (not to mention the statue of Lama Yeshe) when it was written by such a 'hopeless' Lama who could not tell the difference between an enlightened Dharma Protector and a common ghost???

Either you believe through and through and keep your commitments and vows all the way as Lama Tsongkhapa instructed or you cannot regard yourself as a legitimate holder of the lineage.

3. By the FPMT's own reckoning, Lama Zopa is a bit of a demon worshipper. Not by my words but by actions of Lama Zopa - (i) first by still,venerating Lama Yeshe, a demon practitioner again by the FPMT's reckoning since Lama Trusted trusted "dolgyal" so much and (ii) Later I read that Lama Zopa would also pay respects and worship the holy stupa with Trijang Dorje Chang's remains are kept. [see thishttp://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-worships-trijang-rinpoches-stupa/

Why would Lama Zopa worship Trijang Dorje Chang's holy stupa unless he believed and knew that it contained the relics of a Buddha? If Dorje Shugden is truly a demonic force, then Trijang Dorje Chang was at fault because it was Trijang Dorje Chang was the one who taught that Dorje Shugden is in fact Manjushri, the same belief Lama Yeshe held. Shouldn't Lama Zopa and his FPMT campaign to destroy the stupa and throw away the ashes like they did with the ashes of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen who arose as Dorje Shugden? To be seen worshipping Trijang Dorje Chang's holy stupa is to encourage others to do the same. Why do the opposite of what you preach?

Again this is highly inconsistent.

Hence my opening words i.e. I cannot help but think of Lama Zopa and FPMT as hollow since they renounced Dorje Shugden.

4. And to cap it all off, Lama Zopa himself wrote that he was recognised by the oracle of Domo Geshe's monastery and who else can this oracle be but the hugely famous oracle of Dorje Shugden.

Lama Zopa wrote:

"...Next day in the morning my aunt made a very nice thermos of tea and bread in a bamboo container inside a basket and took me to the small branch monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s main monastery about fifteen to twenty minutes’ walk away, where I met the tall monk again – he was the Lopon of this small monastery. The Lopon heard stories of me from people in the village, that I was a tulku from Lawudo near Thami. So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true".

The is the very same oracle of Domo Geshe's monastery who famously took trance of Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo and Namka Barzin (both deities are also in Dorje Shugden's entourage and assists Dorje Shugden) whom the 14th Dalai Lama had met earlier and then proceeded to write the famous praise of Dorje Shugden called Melody Of Unceasing Vajra. In it the 14th Dalai Lama referred to Dorje Shugden as:

"...Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth"


Who else would guard Manjushri and Tsongkhapa's teachings and come from Tushita, Kechara and so forth except a Buddha??? So Lama Zopa is saying the 14th Dalai Lama, Chenresiz himself messed up!

5. Let's set aside all these dharma stuff. I have seen pictures of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. There was so much love and care. Lama Zopa himself said that Lama Yeshe was like his own father and mother. So what happened? What happened to simple old gratitude and loyalty?

So why does Lama Zopa still keep a statue of his Guru Lama Yeshe and encourage others to revere Lama Yeshe and at the same time, denounce Lama yes he's trusted Protector? Only a few logical reasons:

1. Lama Zopa was forced by the CTA to do so. In fact, in  Lama Zopa's first comments about Dorje Shugden after the Dalai Lama's ban on the practice, Lama Zopa refused to outrightly denounce the deity and even said that he is not saying that Dorje Shugden is bad.

Lama Zopa in a answer to a question on Dorje Shugden wrote this:

"Recently, I also introduced a new guideline for the protection of the Dharma centers and their students, which is not to invite to the center teachers who do the protector practice and are therefore against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, this doesn’t include gurus who may have practiced the protector in the past. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I’m not saying that. If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion".

That the complete opposite of Lama Zopa's actions in supporting the 14th Dalai Lama to force practitioners to denounce their Dorje Shugden worshipping teachers regardless of whether they are still alive or not!

2. Lama Zopa is putting on a show for the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government not to get into trouble but are still quietly practicing Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama's government (The Central Tibetan Administration) is known to use heavy handed means to force people to stop, even violence and abusing legislative instruments to criminalise the practice.

3. Lama Zopa and FPMT simply sold out and chose to follow the Dalai Lama's political diktat instead of being loyal to Lama Yeshe and Lama Tsongkhapa.

In any case, the FPMT is very much part of the machinery that is eroding the the integrity of the dharma, the sanctity of Guru Devotion and the purity of Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage. You may say they had no choice but many other lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche and many others chose to protect Tsongkhapa's foundation and the honour of their teacher with their lives.

Lama Zopa? Well he made what he thought was savvy business move. So, yup...hollow. Like a tree that has forfeited its roots. Lama Tsonghapa's lineage is 600 years old and is growing in spite of the Dalai Lama's attempts to tear it down. There are no 600 year old business that is still standing no matter how politically correct they were...except for the profession of 'soliciting' in the liberal sense of the word.





« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 05:52:31 AM by vajratruth »

Ringo Starr

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Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?

This is a good question and some of Lama Zopa's advice pertaining to Dorje Shugden practice found here https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden] [url]https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden [/url] can perhaps answer this question.

Here are some pertinent quotes from Lama Zopa:

Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.”
By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life.

According to guru devotion practice, no matter how many gurus you have, you should look at all of them as one being, one mind, and that is Dharmakaya. That view must come from the disciple’s side. You look at them as one mind in different bodies, acting in different ways, according to the karma of sentient beings and their ordinary mistaken minds.


Causing heresy and anger and giving up the virtuous friend is much worse than killing and waging wars. This is because the object is very powerful. One’s guru is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas.

The karma from forsaking one’s guru is worse than the karma generated by Hitler and Mao Tse Tung. Mao Tse Tung caused harm to many holy beings, but they were not his gurus. In the world, someone who kills many millions of people can still achieve enlightenment in that same lifetime. But generating heresy toward the virtuous friend and giving up one’s devotion to the virtuous friend makes it difficult to achieve enlightenment, even if one practices tantra with much hardship. It will be like taking a rebirth in hell.
Therefore, what I am saying is this: In the world, actions such as killing and waging war have very bad repercussions and are terrible, but the karma from these actions is mild compared to heresy and giving up one’s guru.

You can see in the outline in the lam-rim, even if one commits the five heinous crimes—killing one’s father, killing one’s mother, drawing blood from a Buddha, causing schism in the Sangha, and killing an Arhant—one can still achieve enlightenment, but not based on mistaken devotion to the virtuous friend. If you read Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, or The Essential Nectar, particularly the lam-rim outline on guru devotion, you will understand.


Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.

Therefore, support for His Holiness becomes very important. Another thing is that His Holiness is the main source of world peace. In this aspect, His Holiness gives so much peace and happiness to so many millions and millions of people in this world. This aspect of His Holiness is the greatest inspiration, bringing many millions of people’s hearts toward Buddhism. Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence.


Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context.



Personally, at the ultimate level, I do not see Lama Zopa or FPMT people as having broken samaya or having any contradictions in their practices. Having lots of Lama Yeshe statues and perhaps not openly practicing Dorje Shugden can go hand in hand in fulfilling the requirements of guru devotion and the view that Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama are indeed all Buddhas.

When Lama Osel takes over as spiritual advisor, he could perhaps manifest a different aspect with regards to this current issue.

My favorite quote:

"Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence."


Ringo Starr

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Having said the above, it would also be pertinent to remind that there are many "ordinary view" practitioners in FPMT and elsewhere who should ponder the questions posted by Thaimonk.

Being vehement and even violent against DS persons/organizations is not what Lama Zopa teaches. Don't ever think that he teachers that. In fact I would like to quote Lama Zopa once again on this issue:

"Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context."

And there is a whole post you can read here about this:

https://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/letter-from-a-senior-fpmt-monk/ 

Letter from a senior FPMT monk
November 24, 2008

Below are some extracts from a letter written by Yeshe Sangye, a senior FPMT monk and close disciple of Lama Yeshe. The full letter can be found here. As he says himself at the end of his letter:

I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.

Why are we including his letter here? Because many times NKT-IKBU Centers and students have been at the receiving end of slander and disruption at the hands of FPMT Centers and students, ever since the Dalai Lama spoke out against Dorje Shugden and the FPMT decided to follow his lead. This is a fact, and it is backed up by Yeshe Sangye (below).

It is a serious matter to be involved in criticizing other Mahayana traditions (it’s a downfall of the Bodhisattva vows) and impeding the spreading of pure Buddhadharma is contributing to the suffering of others. This is a big world, big enough for NKT~IKBU and the FPMT and all other Buddhist traditions.  There are billions of suffering beings and these beings all have different karma.  While we rejoice in the FPMT’s work of spreading Buddha’s teachings, we do not rejoice in their political actions against the NKT because of following the Dalai Lama’s view.  Dharma mixed with politics is like delicious food mixed with poison – the only result will be suffering in the end.

As explained on the New Kadampa Truth website, FPMT members are regularly contributing to  Internet forums where they criticize the NKT and try to dissuade anyone reading their posts from attending NKT Centers.  The NKT has written to the FPMT asking them to desist from criticizing our tradition and specifically mentioning some individuals on the Geshe program (Tenzin Peljor); but nothing has improved. Quite apart from the fact that the FPMT de facto has an official policy of discrimination in place by not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners to be teachers, to ordain in the FPMT tradition, or even to attend FPMT teachings, here are a few specific examples of the treatment the NKT has received from the FPMT:

FPMT Mexico has officially criticized NKT on their website.
One FPMT student claimed on an Amazon Buddhist discussion group that we are praying for the death of the Dalai Lama or FPMT Teachers such as Thubten Gonpo, one of our main critics.
A personal story from an NKT Teacher: “A student of mine who was heading for Foundation Programme spent the summer in Nepal.  He took one of the 10 day Lamrim courses at Kopan and told one of the nuns, a Swedish nun called Ven Karen, that he was from Kingston and went to the NKT Centre there.  He said she then spent a long time trying to convince him that we were a cult and that he should not go there.  She brought up things like we worship an evil spirit, we’re all about money etc. He came back disillusioned about our Centre and Buddhism in general. He wasn’t impressed with the FPMT that much, but her words stuck and after a couple of meetings with him, he left, taking with him our core students from the University.”
Another personal story from an NKT Teacher: “We had a student in Taiwan whose auntie became an FPMT nun and was banned from coming to our centre. His name is ***** and N**** is still in touch with him.”
A story of discrimination from France: “Around 2004 Vivre Autrement alternative health fair in Paris. We were denied a stand at this very popular annual event which attracts 1000s. I had applied under the name of Editions Tharpa, mainly to offer books etc. FPMT people turned the organizers against us, as they wanted to have a stand, and we were refused.”

According to one testimonial received from an NKT member in Boston:”We were constantly hearing feedback from General Program students about how they were told by the FPMTers that we who attended NKT centers were not Buddhists, we were a money making cult, we had no authority to teach, our ordinations were not real, Geshe Kelsang was an evil wizard leading us all into hell … you get the idea.”
These are just a few examples – we have many more examples of FPMT interference in the development of the NKT-IKBU, and this sad state of affairs is still continuing today.

Lama Yeshe of the FPMT was no spirit worshipper. His wish in establishing the FPMT was to spread Dharma in the West, a wish that the New Kadampa Tradition is fulfilling. There is no conflict between Lama Yeshe’s and Geshe Kelsang’s intentions, and they were close friends and peers who regularly engaged in Gelugpa spiritual practice together, including monthly Dorje Shugden pujas; so why is the FPMT attacking us? It can only be because FPMT members have become a political tool of the Dalai Lama’s to fulfill his wish to destroy this tradition. Is this any way to repay Lama Yeshe’s kindness?






So please think before you act and this includes the Tibetan leadership in India.
Karma bites!