Author Topic: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!  (Read 14233 times)

LosangKhyentse

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WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« on: February 12, 2010, 10:12:33 AM »
• May 14, 1995 – Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy I
Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Private Office of the Dalai Lama, Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, published by the Department of Religion and Culture of the Tibetan Administration of the Dalai Lama, Dharamsala, 1996, p. 13.

"It is important that Tibetans should observe their commitments (dam.tsig) which is their obligation. Particularly, the issue of Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is a bad omen. In this direction, we, the formless, are aware that it does not harbor good. This should definitely be stopped (mtshams.'jog) in the region of Tibet. With respect to the issue of the unity of religion and politics [of Tibet] and the Ganden Potang government in particular, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] cannot demonstrate even a grain of benefit. He can never bring happiness for Tibet [or Tibetan people?].

• June 14, 1995- Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy II
Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Cabinet of the exile government: Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, pp. 14-17.

"An important current issue is that if you continue to go through the motions of government service as if it were punishment instead of serving the Ganden Potang government with total loyalty it is possible that this may pose a serious threat to the well being of Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama]. A grave issue has arisen concerning the administration of the Ganden Potang. One thing that I, the Tsangpa Dhungthoed Chan, have to say about this explicitly is that [Tibetan] worship of deities has now reached a critical stage. It is extremely sad that Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] the Chinese spirit is being worshiped.

Even though [Gyalchen] angers Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama], there are those who worship him [Dorje Shugden] and who revere him in secret. Not only are there such worshipers in Tibet, there is deep reverence for him even among government employees. This is very harmful. That he is of great harm has already been said by Dorje Dragden [Nechung].

In this regard there is a popular perception that there is acrimony between Dorje Dragden [Nechung] and Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden]. That can never be true. For the success of Buddhism and the Ganden Potang government, Dorje Dragden continues to extend to me complete support and since I too am to pursue this path completely, [I have to point out] that if the Cabinet and the People's Deputies [Assembly] do not strictly decide this issue and adhere to it, even though Buddhism may spread and even though the causes for the speedy freedom for Tibet may have begun [to grow], Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is sowing dissension [among Tibetans] by employing Chinese spirits and [furthermore] taking advantage of being a formless entity to vocalize and spread misinformation and thereby supporting China. This is a grave matter. Interesting to note here is that the Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden strongly favor Tibetan independence. Thus, it is difficult to reconcile that they would be working for the Chinese who are so adamantly against Tibetan independence. It is almost as if someone were trying on purpose to divide the Tibetan people along these lines, zeroing in on the deepest karmic weakness of the Ganden Potang government brought forward into the twentieth century. One has only to ask, in whose interest would such a division be?

We recommend rituals toward the well being of Gyalwa Rinpoche [the Dalai Lama]. Nevertheless, it is our serious concern that there needs to be strict adherence to the wishes of His Holiness and internal unity. Whether it be the People's Deputies or an ordinary Tibetan, it is unacceptable for anyone to engage in partisan politics.

Of the honest guidelines stipulated by [His Holiness] in this regard, the most important is that regarding the worship of deities. If the common Tibetans and the government employees in particular do not heed those guidelines, there will be great loss for all." When in 1995 someone claims that the seeds of freedom for Tibet are flourishing when the Chinese have vowed to wipe out even the name of the Dalai Lama from history seems a blatant contradiction. In fact, this sounds so absurd that one must conclude something else entirely must be going on here. I think it is that the demonization of the Dalai Lama by the Chinese which started in 1995 is passed right on to Dorje Shugden. Perhaps he is strong enough to carry such a heavy burden. Who is to say which would be a greater loss to the tradition of Buddhism, a Dalai Lama shouldering the blame for the loss of Tibet, no doubt unjustly, or Dorje Shugden and the split banning him has caused within Buddhism? All we know for certain is that the demonization of Dorje Shugden split the Tibetan community. It drive underground many genuine Buddhist practitioners and their practices, leaving in the larger public view mostly those who know how to play their political card correctly.

Another interesting point about this "prophesy" is the claim that acrimony between Nechung and Dorje Shugden is impossible. This is a statement from an ultimate and exclusively religious point of view also held by Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden. Clearly there is a danger to the Ganden Potang government of the Dalai Lama. The Chinese have been working hard to destroy it for the last fifty years. Blaming Dorje Shugden for the actions of the Chinese makes the issue a political one. Dorje Shugden is -- even for the government protector through this oracle -- a matter of politics. The issue the oracle points out it is about the [deposed] Tibetan government, that is, the institution of the Dalai Lama. It is political, especially when it concerns the Chinese.

In one trance ceremony of Tsering Chenga, the female oracle tells that Dorje Shugden
prevented her from raising the Tibetan flag on the Potala in Lhasa Some of the prophesies of these oracles are published by the exile government's Department of Religion and Culture, 1996: gzung.bsten bod.skyong lha.srung khag.gi rdo.rje bka'.lung bzhug.so // implying that Dorje Shugden works for the Chinese.

• 1995- Exorcism Rituals Against Dorje Shugden
The Dharamsala government Most government rituals are performed by Namgyal Monastery, special to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. In the course of the ban, other monasteries were also asked by the government to perform anti-Dorje Shugden rituals, often without the participating monks knowing specifically who had ordered them. performs massive exorcism rituals against Dorje Shugden. For some the Dalai Lama is present. See above reference, the Dalai Lama's statement of March 21, 1996 It is said that for thirteen days after the Tibetan new year celebrated in spring 1996, the government did rituals against Dorje Shugden.


Above article extracted from:

http://www.shugdensociety.info/Bernis2EN.html



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Dear everyone,

This article above is very powerful. I will share my thoughts and comments on the article. It is what I have believed also for the last decade and a half, and it concurs with the prophesy from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in the late 70's. Which is in the future, it may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping eachother to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world.

1. Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why? Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future. Why? It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.


2. Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning.

3.All the the destruction happening against him, he never makes comments, speaks against nor advices undharmic actions. Because it can all be fully reversed in a short time when the time is right.

4. Temporarily Dorje Shugden will accept the name AS THE CAUSE FOR THE LOSS OF TIBET, OR THE CAUSE WHY TIBET CANNOT BE REGAINED BACK, but in the end truth will arise. Dorje Shugden will reveal the true plot which Trijang Rinpoche already hinted at in the late 70's. ( I fold my hands to Trijang Rinpoche and prostrate my full body to Him. I offer my head as a stepping block for his feet. I truly have confidence in this great being. )

5. Dorje Shugden is strong enough to carry such a burden. Dorje Shugden practitioners are resilient enough to not abandon his practice during this crisis. Both Dorje Shugden and his true followers will not abandon eachother no matter what is said and done temporarily at this time.  Both can carry the burden. I personally do not dislike, hate the Dalai Lama but have confidence in him and my own sacred protector Dorje Shugden. I choose to believe and take refuge in Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy. The other two options of hating Dalai lama and abandoning Dorje Shugden are not open to me nor would I choose any of the two options.

6. Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.

7. If Kache Marpo has 'destroyed' lamas/ppl/practitioners in the past for breaking the samaya or polluting the yellow hat teachings, then why is Samdhong Rinpoche, Kashag, Kalons, Ministers, Kunga Tara, and even the Dalai Lama himself are spared? Unless there is a much bigger soup brewing.

8. Nechung is the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a uncommon Protector to protect Nagarjuna's view as embodied within Lama Tsongkapa's lineage only 350 years ago. Why would the same Nechung be talking the opposite. Unless there was a larger plan between Dorje Shugden, Dalai lama and Nechung. Seems like a hopeful fantasy? Well to many more, the idea of a dharma protector or Dorje Shugden themselves are fantasies made up by the Tibetan Lamas.

9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to 'stop' all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through 'hell and back' (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will 'take' it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.

Those who take refuge in Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden will not give up on both. Strongholds for the growth of Buddhadharma and the 're-arisal' of Dorje Shugden in the near future. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja's entourage.

So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET'S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now. If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden. The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden's fault, but the Tibetan ppls' own fault. But for most of the world , karma is not accepted, so the blame would go to the leader which is the Dalai lama. We couldn't afford that at this time when no one else can spread Buddhism like the Dalai lama. Think through this carefully to come to terms with the pain in your heart.I do not blame you for the pain. You are not at fault. You are part of a bigger plan. I've had many pains in my heart that I have come to terms with and some still working on because of this issue. We are all part of a bigger plan. Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.


10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the 'cause' for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.


11. Why can't the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden's practice later. To leave a mark in ppl's minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.

12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama's life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.

13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself 'SIT ON THE FENCE?' Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn't that look contradictory. C'mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us.  So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery?  If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.

Should we open Shar Gaden which 'opposes' the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden's practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.

Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn't that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden's practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.

Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let's not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?

Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to 'lose'. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.

After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.

It is not the Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden to blame. Nor are they adding to it. We were in Samsara before the Dalai lama's name and Shugden even 'existed' as we know them today.

Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden. This AGAIN LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE COOKING UP SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER OR IT'S NEARLY COOKED.

Yes, it is nearly cooked.

It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady. Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama's camp or we go to Dorje Shugden's camp, we go against lineage lamas. So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won't need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.

I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES. Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.

Much success to all,

Tk



« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:06:24 PM by tk »

emptymountains

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Thank you, TK. I have read your entire article. However, I think this says it all: "With respect to the issue of the unity of religion and politics [of Tibet] and the Ganden Potang government in particular, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] cannot demonstrate even a grain of benefit."

P.S. My Spiritual Guide (not named in your list) never took teachings from the DL, so the DL is not a lineage Guru for me.

LosangKhyentse

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Your spiritual guide may not have recieved any teachings from Dalai lama, but his spiritual guides most likely has in one way or another in Tibet before 1959 or after. So even if your spiritual guides haven't directly, it is definitely possible that their teachers have. It is very rare that incumbents from Gaden, Sera or Drepung have not recieved teachings from Dalai lama in Tibet prior to 1959 or in exile.

Most likely, 9 out of 10 Gelug Teachers available these days have recieved teachings from the Dalai Lama or their teachers have recieved teachings from the Dalai Lama.

Even the Dalai Lama was very young prior to 1959 still would of required him to teach nominally during Losar or Monlam. And all the Greats, Tulkus, Geshes would have definitely attended. Dalai lama also gave talks/teachings in Buxa (newly in exile) and the monks of Drepung, Gaden, and Sera are all converged there together before the re-establishments of the respective Monasteries in Bylakuppe and Mundgod.

Somehow, Dalai lama being in his 70's, many of the teachers and their teachers would have recieved teachings during losar, monlam, or special ceremonies. The point is that everyone has somehow have everyone in as their lineage gurus.

So we have to be careful even if others choose not be careful if we sincerely wish attainments to be born within our mindstreams. All the higher tantras such as Guhyasamaja, Heruka, Yamantaka, VajraYogini, etc, requests blessings form the root and lineage gurus in the generation stages.

tk

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 01:18:36 PM by tk »

WisdomBeing

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Gosh - this is a gem for today. What a nice Losar gift. I had to read it and re-read it and there is a lot of information here and logically presented. Thank you very much TK for posting this.

Points to ponder for me were the contradiction with Nechung/Dorje Dragden.. that if Nechung had been the one who had asked Lord Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to become Dorje Shugden, he would not be against Dorje Shugden. That would be illogical.

I also liked your point about HH Trijang Rinpoche being allowed to practice because this will show in future that Dorje Shugden practice does not harm Tibet nor the life of HH Dalai Lama.

As i have always repeated in this forum, since we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should not denigrate HH the Dalai Lama - and TK has mentioned it clearly here that Dorje Shugden himself does not criticise the Dalai Lama and advises everyone NOT to do so either.

Personally, i think that is the sign that Dorje Shugden is truly an enlightened Being because he constantly propagates the Buddhist principles of peace, respect and harmony and if we truly love Dorje Shugden, I think that is what we should do also.

Please keep posting nuggets like this. If only more people could read this. I will post this on my facebook too.

Thank you and Happy Losar!

 


Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Thank you TK for posting these many logical points which presents a very fair and broad picture for us to contemplate. I particularly like your point that both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden seem to be contradicting themselves; and the related point that whichever side we "choose" (for lack of a better word), we would be breaking our samaya. Why would our protectors or Lamas set us up to fail?! We choose and take refuge in these great beings and teachings because we have complete faith that they will help us to progress in our spiritual practice, not send us to hell or confusion!!

It is a VERY EXCELLENT point that all our Lamas will somehow be connected back to the Dalai Lama - either Dalai Lama would have either taught our own lineage lamas or, in turn, our own lineage of Lamas would have taught him. Either way, we can't "escape" the lineage that connects us back to the same line and lineage of Lamas and to our own protector. Our samaya is there to be "broken" whichever way we choose - again, why would our Lamas and the 3 jewels do that to us and set us up to fail or create negative karma for ourselves?

In the same vein therefore, when we criticise and attack the dalai Lama, we are also criticising our own lineage and our own Lamas and all the lams within that lineage. We shoot ourselves in our own foot! In 1959, when all the Lamas escaped from Tibet in 1959, they all congregated at Buxa and were all receiving or giving teachings; they would have all attended and therefore, all been connected.

As TK has said therefore, wouldn't it be most wise (and ultimately beneficial for ourselves) to "keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum". Many of us have forgotten the very basis of our practice and Dharma - Karma - as we get so embroiled in the politics of this issue and continue to lama-bash or deity-bash.

Another point I'd like to add is that it is also completely illogical to associate Dorje Shugden practitioners with the certainty that they are receiving help/money from China or are China spies or being corrupted and bribed by China. What about all those hundreds of years before where there was no China issue and the Lamas never even left Tibet? Were they being corrupted then also? Were they also selling out their own country and being spies then also? Dalai Lama himself also practised - so did he jeopardise his own health and the future of his own country also? Why would he contradict himself like that and also set up his whole country to contradict themselves also?! Why would a practice go from being an enlightened one, to suddenly becoming political since the arisal of Tibetan Independence issue?

The whole issue is, as TK has very clearly pointed out, totally fraught with contradictions that leave us no option but to consider that there MUST be a much larger picture than what we are seeing at face value now. If we have taken refuge and had the incredible good fortune to study and practice closely with a Guru, we will also have experience and understand that the Gurus often tell us things or give us practices/tasks etc that we can't understand or which even seem to be painful for us as we go through a process of healing or realisation. I believe that this is what Dalai Lama - representing all our Gurus and line of Lamas - and Dorje Shugden are doing for us.

Just do our practices well, remember what our Lamas have taught us in the dharma and be sincere in our practice. That is the best way we can promote, defend and spread the teachings of both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden and reflect our Lamas well.

thor

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This matches what I have had in my mind for a while, that the actions of the Dalai Lama appear contradictory, which doesnt make sense for such an esteemed Lama. The original post by tk is logical, well thought out and bears close reading and re-reading.

Yes, one can choose to follow the Dalai Lama's advice to the letter, but logic is a key element of the study of Buddhism. So when we examine the fact that Dalai Lama has allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice, doesnt it raise the questions that
1) How come it doesnt affect the cause of Tibetan independence
2) How come it doesnt affect the long life of the Dalai Lama

If what Dalai Lama says is true ie that Trijang Rinpoche  allowed to practice because he is such an attained master that Dorje Shugden will not affect him, then why doesnt Dalai Lama ask Trijang Rinpoche to perform a ritual to destroy Dorje Shugden? What is the purpose of allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice at all????

Hence the premise put forward by TK is one that makes sense on many levels and offers an answer to the questions above.

Another point that I like: The ban started with Nechung's prophecy that Dorje Shugden's practice would be damaging to Tibetan independence and HHDL's long life. Yet it was Nechung that first requested Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as a protector. And he prompted Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to remember the promise he made in his previous incarnations to protect the teachings of Je Tsongkapa. So which one is it Nechung? Why "create" Dorje Shugden only to slam down his practice later?

Note that the Tsangpa Oracle takes trance of peaceful Setrap - another enlightened protector. The oracle pronouncements seem to criticise Shugden. Yet Setrap and Dorje Shugden share the same mandala. Yet another contradiction in this endless maze of contradictions?

And for those who do practice Dorje Shugden, we are breaking samaya no matter which way we turn. Many lamas, perhaps even 9 out of 10 Tibetan lamas have received teachings from Dalai Lama. And in any case, my lama has received teachings from the Dalai Lama, so he is in my line of lineage gurus. I respect Dalai Lama and I do not hate him. But I will hold my commitments to my root lama strongly to heart. Appearing to sitt on the fence is not necessarily a sign of weakness and cowardice. Sometimes it is the least damaging path. Follow Dorje Shugden's example.

Admin, please add this gem of a posting to the permanent section at the top of the forum.

Big Uncle

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Dear all,

The information presented within this thread like the many of the others are thought-provoking and very relevent to all Tibetan Buddhists. With the statements issued from the Dalai Lama and now the Tsangpa oracle adds more fuel to the current state of affairs. Knowing a little bit from much of the wonderful articles within this website and the comments and statements posted by the many other fellow forum users.

Of all the views I have heard, the most appealing is that of tk's explanation of the current state of affairs. It makes the most sense to me that as according to Trijang Rinpoche's much earlier prophesy of the current clash. It appears to be a clash but the result is more people are worshiping Dorje Shugden. Despite the clampdown, many people are practising and even within the TGIE as expressed by the Tsangpa Oracle.

It is funny that samaya was brought up within the prophesy. Maybe samaya is pledged to the Dalai Lama for those in the TGIE but for others like us around the world, our samaya is towards our Lama who compassionately gives us our yidam and protector practices. However, having said that, we should not deny the Dalai Lama who is also our lineage Lama and clearly an eminent student of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Hence, the growing appeal of sitting on the fence and quietly creating the causes for all this to end which is also prophesied by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. (Heck! Even Dorje Shugden does this although he is persecuted!)

In my opinion, it is funny that they would even compare the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden's importance in Buddhism. A Lama is always more important especially the Dalai Lama but the Dalai Lama is after all a man and will come to pass... And Dorje Shugden will continue to pervade and benefit countless beings after his passing. What is amazing is that when the Dalai Lama passes, logically the other high Lamas will step in to take care of the 'flock' and many of them already practicing Dorje Shugden. Hence, the Dalai Lama works very hard to become world famous. I understand now. How exciting! It will be like a new world order!

It sounds like the Dalai Lama has been orchestrating this all along. All Lamas prepare for their passing because they meditate on it every single day. It doesn't make sense that after decades of hard work and teachings and then allow it to die or degenerate after their passing. He must be working on a level that we cannot comprehend at this time and after all, some Tibetan Lamas and yogis are pretty well known for that. It is clear that Dorje Shugden is already an unstoppable force but he will always revere the Dalai Lama - a testament to Dorje Shugden's wisdom and compassion.

Hence, I too choose to take refuge in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's prophesy. I hope websites and forums like these spread the truth to many out there so everyone is aware and less conflicts will occur the Dalai Lama's divine plans to come to fruition.    

LosangKhyentse

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Dear everyone,

Thank you for your opinions. I do appreciate reading them.

TK

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 09:00:48 PM »
Hey Everyone,

Happy Losar!

Wow! TK's findings and sharings is really helpful to a newbie like me. I didnt know that it really meant so logical to have all these happenings at this time when Buddhism and human ethics are degenerating greatly.

From what I've read from TK's posts, these three figures seem to take on 2 personalities at different times. Each taking different sides of pro and against at different times to different crowds. I mean, how can HHDL in his own ways stop all DS practices within the Tibetan community and at the same time permits the new incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche to practice DS right? Nechung was the one bugging Dulzinpa to manifest as a holy protector and he was the one to fan up flames within the Gaden prodrang people back then to create the causes for Dulzinpa to arise as a protector, now he's saying that DS is a bad spirit. DS on the other hand says to support the cause of HHDL but on the other hand spoke in trance to the monks of Shar Gaden that their move to establish Shar Gaden was right.....isn't it a bit too confusing which sides these 3 figures are on??? ???

Are the Buddhas really confused or are they playing a prank on us? The loophole here which matches what TK has shared that I read somewhere that HH the previous Trijang Rinpoche said that in the future there will be an upheaval in the Tibetan Buddhist scene and Trijang Rinpoche gave advice not to abandon DS and at the same time not to lose faith in HHDL as well. Based on this statement (I need to dig out the source) backed by TK's post, I think it really makes sense.

Thanks TK, your posting really came in time to help people like myself.

Long life and happiness to you

cheers,
HN
Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!

dsnowlion

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »
After reading this ... everything seems so much more CLEARER!!! Thank you TK for the logical 13 points stated above that makes us all not lose faith in both His Holiness as well as Dorje Shugden!

I especially like Point no. 3 as it says a lot. Yes why is there never once Dorje Shugden speak ill against the Dalai Lama or advices us to go against the Dalai Lama despite all the "outward destruction" against Dorje Shugden??? That it self leads me to think deeper that there must be something else we don't know that is beyond our concept at this point. And if Dorje Shugden never speaks ill of the Dalai Lama who are we to do that?

Point no.6 "Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose."
I too do not think the Dalai Lama is so stupid. How can 1 man fooled the entire world, scientists, philosophers, leaders of nations, if he was not sincerely promoting the Dharma? They would have stiffed him out a long time ago. He is still up till today the most popular Buddhist monk in the world who can single handedly attract hundred of thousands to his teaching. Hence planting Dharma seeds in them for later. He hasn't worked this much and this far to purposely destroy his reputation, go to court for no reason?

This above points also clears the questions of why the Dalai lama doesn't himself just subdue/bind Dorje Shugden, just get rid of him, if he really was a spirit?  Instead of talking so much till He gets a soar throat! And no spirit can bring any harm to those who has taken refuge right, what more a monk? Hence it makea no sense Dorje Shugden can harm any the Dalai Lamma.

Another point is Why keep blasting and implementing the Ban knowing very well that it would be so easy for China to pick it and happily promote Dorje Shugden massively! If the Dalai Lama doesn't want China or anyone to practice Dorje Shugden and spread the teachings, he would not be going around telling the media, the world about it. If really Dorje Shugden will create problems for the Dalai Lama's life and the cause of Tibet Independence then the Dalai Lama himself would have been the main culprit who have started the promotion of it with this Ban issue!

So it only leaves me to realise and agree with what TK said that it would be far better and wiser for us all to keep an equilibrium being patient, following the law of cause and effect, do our own practices well to develop attainments. After all the nothing is permanent.

If Dorje Shugden himself is 'SITTING ON THE FENCE?' Then I guess I should too. After all we claim him to be our Enlightened Protector :)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 10:14:49 PM »
Concerning Trijang Rinpoche's advice

One has to remember, that all the teachings given by the Buddha were contextual, that is, dependent upon the audience. Therefore everything that the Buddha teached, must be taken in relation to something else. There are no absolutes in Dharma. This is a basic fact. At the very least all Mahayanists should understand this point, and us Vajrayanists especially. And in Theravada too, there are conflicting teachings since there are the two Sanghas, the householders and the homeless ones. I'll guess we all understand this point, at least when it comes to Madhyamika and Chittamatra, Hinayana and Mahayana, and so forth. But it goes all the way, through the Dharma. Really.

And now, if we Shugdenites accept that Trijang Dorjechang was indeed a Buddha, we must understand his statements, advices and teachings in the same manner. They were meant for specific audiences at a specific times. They were not absolute universal commandements. We can, and indeed must, make rational judgements about his words. (There is of corse a slightly different tone with written books and spoken advice, since the authors of books tend to make more general statements whereas the recorded spoken word tends to be more audience-sensitive in a narrowing sense.)

And as this is so, I would therefore like to have the context of Trijang Rinpoche's well known advice that says that somebody or somebodies should in the future retain faith in both DS and DL. This kind of advice is meaningless without the context. What was the context? Who were the primary intended audience? When was it said and to whom? And so forth. The context must be present whenever a teaching or a quote is given, since otherwise we could all just dig the Sutras and Sastras to have a snippets of words or lump-a-words that nicely suit us ourselves.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:29:32 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

LosangKhyentse

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 10:41:22 PM »


I have many marooned clothed friends in Gaden and many senior monk friends. The senior monks are already now aged into their 70's related that Trijang Rinpoche mentioned not to lose faith in DL and DS because in the future it would seem as if they are against eachother. They are there in Gaden with Trijang Rinpoche, when Trijang Rinpoche said this.

Time it was said: Late 1970's after composing His volume on Dorje Shugden in order to preserve the lineage after He has passed away.

Place it was said: Gaden Monastery.

Audience: close students who are senior monks now in Gaden. Intended time for the advice to be remembered is after the death of Trijang Rinpoche. And if we need clarification after Trijang Rinpoche has passed away, we should refer to the volume Trijang Rinpoche has so kindly written for us to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage. This volume is scanned in and available on this website (thank you so much webmaster).

Time it is referred to: Trijang Rinpoche meant this prophecy to be fulfilled after his death. He has written this volume to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage as it would seem that DL and DS will be at odds after his death and he would not be around to clarify. So he leaves this volume on Dorje Shugden written by himself for the future generations. Dalai Lama was aware he is composing this volume. Trijang Rinpoche mentioned during that time in the future not to lose faith in both DL and DS.


To add to that, when the ban first happened in the 90's, Dulzin took trance of Choyang Kuten in Gaden. The audience were Jangtze monks who asked Dulzin to do something regarding the ban. Dulzin replied, to be steadfast in their practice simultaneously not to say negative words against Dalai Lama. That in the future, the ppl who gave up their Ds practice and berated Ds WILL COME TO DULZIN AND APOLOGIZE.

Both the information above was passed to me by senior monks of Gaden.


 

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 11:01:33 PM »
Yes why is there never once Dorje Shugden speak ill against the Dalai Lama or advices us to go against the Dalai Lama despite all the "outward destruction" against Dorje Shugden???
Maybe it is because non-physical beings are not capable to speak to us in any way, whether against something or otherwise. ;D

Quote
That it self leads me to think deeper that there must be something else we don't know that is beyond our concept at this point. And if Dorje Shugden never speaks ill of the Dalai Lama who are we to do that?


Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.

The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 11:05:05 PM »


Yes, it could be in the late 1960's or 70's..of which it doesn't matter in regards to His message. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche presented/taught the text to students many times and has repeated such message in regards to the future for many audiences many times.

As the time came closer to His passing, the message became sound and clear in Gaden, that after the passing of Himself, this so called disharmony would occur between DL and DS. And when that time comes, do not lose faith in both as they are helping eachother to make the Dharma grow bigger in the world. Although it would appear to be the opposite. That matches what Dulzin says also not to slander DL.

tk




LosangKhyentse

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Re: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2010, 11:25:05 PM »


Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.

The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.



I guess you/we have the highest wisdom, the omniscient mind higher than any lama, teacher or Buddha past present and future. What you see is what you percieve. Hence a glass a water to you is a glass of water to you. But to a preta, it can appear as spittle or urine. Hence to a preta it is urine and to you it is water, who is right?? What you see is not what you get.

God or Christian Judeo theory of God knows more than you does not apply here. God knows more is an attempt to explain something mysterious that may cause someone to doubt or lost faith in God. God always knows and you always don't. So don't question God. It is not like that in Buddhism at all. We do not know as much now, or able to percieve as much as a Buddha but that is impermanent depending on our efforts. You cannot question God. But you can question Buddha so you can become a Buddha.

In Buddhism, it would refer to higher attainments. If higher attainments through meditative experiences are possible, then the level in which a mind can percieve would be differing also. What happened to Shakyamuni under the bodhi tree on the night of his full enlightenment? The 1st watch, 2nd watch, 3rd watch, etc? With each watch his understanding and perception encompassed all sentient beings more and more and seeing every single life they have taken rebirth in simultaneously. I am not able to do that. But Buddha is able to. That does not make him a God, but an omniscient one, or a Buddha. There is nothing wrong in accepting Buddha would percieve more and some of the things he can percieve, there is no way we can.


A highly attained being having greater insight than us is not lame. Otherwise why take refuge in a Buddha. Do you know more than a Buddha? If you do, then you are right. Always right. Then why practice dharma? You wouldn't need to.

No offence intended to you. Just sharing my thoughts with you please. Thank you.

TK

P.s. No one called you and unknowing idiot. And just because you don't know everything does not mean you are an idiot. No need to be so extreme. Either you know or you are an idiot. It's not like that. I don't know as much as Trijang Rinpoche or Dulzin. Why? Because I don't have their attainments. There is certainly 100% possibility due to their attainments they know of the past, present and future much more than me. But I don't feel bad just inspired to become like them one day.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 12:54:01 AM by tk »