Author Topic: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense  (Read 3614 times)

DharmaDefender

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Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« on: August 20, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »
Just thought Id collate the reasons here because I thought of some the other day and wanted to keep track.

  • If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, and a spirit can harm the Dalai Lama (as is purported by the CTA), then at the very most basic level, it must mean the Dalai Lama doesnt have refuge because if you hold your refuge vows well (much less your ordination vows), your supposed to be protected against spirits
  • If the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, how can a spirit harm someone who is a Buddha?
  • If practising Dorje Shugden sends us to the three lower realms, then how come Dorje Shugden lamas have returned? And how come their reincarnations have been recognised by the 14th Dalai Lama himself, even though their so evil for propitiating a spirit? I can think of Trijang Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Lama Osel, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Kundeling Rinpoche...any others?
  • If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, how come some of the highest lamas have propitiated his blessings for 350 years? Does this mean they were wrong? Does this mean they werent attained enough to recognise a spirit? If they can be wrong with such a BIG thing (I mean come on, who cant recognise a spirit? Haha), then how can we trust them for all of their other practices and teachings? How do we, the unattained, differentiate between a spirit and a Buddha? And if your going to argue, "Well its simple. A spirit does this, this and this; and a Buddha does that, that and that..." then how come the lamas cant do the same? If they cant do the same, why do we bother to trust them?
  • If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, how come none of the lamas (including the Dalai Lama, whom we believe to be a Buddha) have been able to subdue him, starting with the Mindrolling Lamas first attempt? Are the powers that Guru Rinpoche showed only limited to the lamas of the past?
  • Does that mean that after the Mindrolling Lamas time, there have been no Buddhas or masters with any kind of attainments? So whats the point of joining a monastery then, if no attainments are possible when you chose to renounce samsara to take on the robes? Does this make the monasteries invalid?
  • If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, and his practice is banned because hes a spirit, then how come the CTA still seeks the advice of other spirits like Nechung and Tsiu Marpo? If it was possible to subdue them to serve the Dharma, how come it wasnt possible to subdue Dorje Shugden (given the CTA says hes a spirit)?
  • If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, why did he save the Dalai Lamas life by giving the Dalai Lama the correct time and route to escape Tibet? (unlike Nechung who told him to say) If that story is a lie, are you saying that Trijang Rinpoche, the Dalai Lamas own teacher, is a liar?
  • The CTA said that practising Dorje Shugden harms the Tibetan independence movement. If people stop practising Dorje Shugden, then logically it should follow that the Tibetans will get Tibet back. Now that the vast majority of Tibetans no longer practise Dorje Shugden (as is purported by the CTA), how come Tibet is no closer to gaining independence? Is it because Shar Gaden and Serpom still practise Dorje Shugden? If thats the case, does that mean that these two monasteries karmas outweight the collective karma of the Tibetans?
  • Kind of a weaker point, but here goes anyway:- if supporting Dorje Shugden is supporting the Chinese Communists, how come China hasnt picked up on the ban and promoted Dorje Shugden in a big way, like they have done with the Panchen Lama?

Anything else? Ill add to this list when I can think of things...

Ensapa

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:50 PM »
I have a few funny points also

1. Why does CTA/HHDL quote from 'fallen' lamas that have 'failed' in their practice such as Chakya Rolpa Dorje (banned by the CTA), Lelung Rinpoche (went wayward by encouraging sex and failed to manifest dharma activities for 4 incarnations, as told by Trijang Rinpoche in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors), 8th Panchen Lama (whose Dharma activities immediately came to a halt when he decided to drop Dorje Shugden), 100th Ganden Tripa (Being quite an unpopular lama amongst Ganden)? Does he not have any better examples of Gelug Lamas who have succeeded in their spiritual attainments as opposed to those failed?

2. How come HHDL thinks/says reasonings that sound logical on first glance, that sounds logical for those who do not know much about Tibet's history and facts, but on careful examination, they are actually misinterpretations of what is really going on. Example, Chakya Rolpa Dorje was clearly referring to another spirit in his biography, but Dalai Lama says it is Dorje Shugden. Why the cover up and the presentation of distorted facts? Is this a very Buddhist thing to do?

3) HHDL says that Dorje Shugden shortens his life, but why does he keep Samdhong Rinpoche and Ngari Rinpoche close to him? Samdhong Rinpoche is a very close aide of the Dalai Lama and is a known emanation of Dorje Shugden, and Ngari Rinpoche's line of incarnations goes back to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen which is Dorje Shugden and he is now the Dalai Lama's brother. So why not get rid of these two people who are literally, Dorje Shugden on earth?

These are the points that stick out to me like a sore thumb.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 03:20:59 PM »
Fair dos Ensapa, especially on the third point. It never made sense to me why the Dalai Lama kept them so close, when hes so against Dorje Shugden. Actually, your message has prompted another point:

1) if propitiating Dorje Shugden is SO bad, why doesnt the Dalai Lama keep encouraging his teacher NOT to practise? In fact, the Dalai Lama has made an outright exception for his teacher...why does the Dalai Lama make an exception for Trijang Rinpoche? Wheres the compassion for his own teacher in propitiating a spirit?

2) but the Dalai Lama has so much respect for his teacher, and therefore wont denounce his teacher, then why doesnt the Dalai Lama also respect what his teacher is practising?

3) and if the Dalai Lama DOES respect what his teacher is practising, because it cannae be THAT bad, why discourage everyone else from practising it too?

HELP ME ENSAPA!

Ensapa

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »
Fair dos Ensapa, especially on the third point. It never made sense to me why the Dalai Lama kept them so close, when hes so against Dorje Shugden. Actually, your message has prompted another point:

1) if propitiating Dorje Shugden is SO bad, why doesnt the Dalai Lama keep encouraging his teacher NOT to practise? In fact, the Dalai Lama has made an outright exception for his teacher...why does the Dalai Lama make an exception for Trijang Rinpoche? Wheres the compassion for his own teacher in propitiating a spirit?
HHDL did make a veiled threat to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche:
Quote
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."

Sounds more like a threat than an advice. So, it is only under tremendous pressure that HHDL said that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden, if he wants to.
[/color]

2) but the Dalai Lama has so much respect for his teacher, and therefore wont denounce his teacher, then why doesnt the Dalai Lama also respect what his teacher is practising?
Apparently, HHDL says that it is okay and normal for your teacher to make a mistake, it does not mean they're not perfect if they do and he quotes:

Quote
I am not someone who tries to claim that I should be counted amongst the ranks of the scholarly or accomplished beings. I do however feel that my approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted. I often reflect upon these words:

Vasubhandu, who had the welfare of beings at heart, 
Due to his personal leaning,
Explained (the Prajnaparamita /Abhisamayalankara),
In terms of the internal (mental) existence of all things.

He who was counted amongst the ranks of the aryas,
And was known as "freedom'.
Seeing that what (Vasubhandu) had done was not how it should be,
He scrutinised with a "middle way" judgement.
 
Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu's manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author's ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide - disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena's part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.

Then we could look at accounts of the relationship between Jowo Je Atisha and his teacher Serlingpa. Serlingpa was the teacher who Atisha himself accredited as the one who helped him most in his quest to generate bodhicitta. In this area, he was like his root Lama. Despite this, on the philosophical level they were at variance. Serlingpa held the Cittamatra view. Accounts have it that Serlingpa congratulated Atisha for his practise of bodhicitta, whilst informing him that as far as his philosophical view was concerned he was incorrect. Atisha said though that Serlingpa's instructions only served to boost his confidence in the correctness of the middle way view.

Likewise, we have the case of Dharmakirti. Vasubhandu had many students, one of whom was Dignaga. He was said to have been the one who surpassed even his own master in terms of his understanding of Pramana. Dignaga then had a disciple called Ishvarasena. He in turn had Dharmakirti as a student. Dharmakirti heard explanation of Dignaga's Pramanasamuccaya text from Ishvarasena, but rejected Ishvarasena's interpretation. He then incorporated Ishvarasena's views as the objects of attack in sections of his Pramanavarttika. Thus, when it comes to helping to clarify the doctrine, creating, and rectifying mistakes, even one's own teacher may come under criticism. One can see it in terms of one's teacher having given certain instructions directed at a few specific individuals (when there is a need to give a different message). Whilst this might generally work though, it would be difficult to square in the above-mentioned case of Vasubhandu. At least in the way that Haribhadra has put it, it sounds as though it was Vasubhandu's own bias (as opposed to consideration of any particular disciple) that led him to interpret things in the way that he did. Anyway, whether the original reasons for certain interpretations were due to individual students, other considerations or plain misunderstanding, it may prove necessary for later individuals to clarify things. Rectifying, clarifying and the like are generally accepted approaches for the learned and completely in step with the correct general approach to the teachings. This is way to proceed and help to guard against decline.

But very clearly, it is taken out of context to mean that it is possible to keep Guru devotion while seeing your teacher has erred in some point.
[/color]

3) and if the Dalai Lama DOES respect what his teacher is practising, because it cannae be THAT bad, why discourage everyone else from practising it too?
Perhaps it is a way for him to filter out insincere people? I am not too sure about here...

HELP ME ENSAPA!
I did my best :P

In any case, there are many interesting facts about the ban that sounds really odd or illogical, yet many people still choose to not think deeper and look. But oh well.

vajrastorm

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 02:28:22 PM »
One reason the ban doesn't make sense to me is that, in the first place, it doesn't make sense to me how HH Dalai Lama, who wrote the beautiful prayer and praise to Dorje Shugden - 'Melody of the unceasing Vajra'- could stage a turnabout and condemn Shugden as a malevolent spirit, who can shorten his life and harm the cause of Tibet's freedom.

THe following are verses and lines from this prayer and propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjushri Tsongkapa's Teachings:

 "Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful protector of Manjushri Tsongkapa's Teachings"

"Grind to dust without remainder
Enemy hordes that think and act perversely
Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people
With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!"

"In brief, we enthrone you, O deity, as the supreme
Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!
From densely gathered clouds of the four activities
Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!"

Such lovely and eloquent  words of praise and devotion!How can there be a sudden and unaccountable change of heart and mind about Dorje Shugden? How can there follow a ban and subsequent atrocities against Shugden practitioners who did no wrong but kept faith with their Gurus.


kris

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »
Thank you DharmaDefender for compiling the list. I have two points to add:

1. Why does HH Dalai Lama ban everyone in the world to practice Dorje Shugden, but make exception to HH Trijang Rinpoche and allow Him to practice? If Dorje Shugden is indeed a spirit, why make exception?

2. If Dorje Shugden is indeed a spirit, why are the monasteries who practice Him are spreading the Dharma and also getting a lot of funding?

DharmaDefender

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2012, 09:03:11 AM »
Fair dos Ensapa, especially on the third point. It never made sense to me why the Dalai Lama kept them so close, when hes so against Dorje Shugden. Actually, your message has prompted another point:

1) if propitiating Dorje Shugden is SO bad, why doesnt the Dalai Lama keep encouraging his teacher NOT to practise? In fact, the Dalai Lama has made an outright exception for his teacher...why does the Dalai Lama make an exception for Trijang Rinpoche? Wheres the compassion for his own teacher in propitiating a spirit?
HHDL did make a veiled threat to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche:
Quote
"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."


Sounds more like a threat than an advice. So, it is only under tremendous pressure that HHDL said that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden, if he wants to.
[/color]

2) but the Dalai Lama has so much respect for his teacher, and therefore wont denounce his teacher, then why doesnt the Dalai Lama also respect what his teacher is practising?
Apparently, HHDL says that it is okay and normal for your teacher to make a mistake, it does not mean they're not perfect if they do and he quotes:

Quote
I am not someone who tries to claim that I should be counted amongst the ranks of the scholarly or accomplished beings. I do however feel that my approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted. I often reflect upon these words:

Vasubhandu, who had the welfare of beings at heart, 
Due to his personal leaning,
Explained (the Prajnaparamita /Abhisamayalankara),
In terms of the internal (mental) existence of all things.

He who was counted amongst the ranks of the aryas,
And was known as "freedom'.
Seeing that what (Vasubhandu) had done was not how it should be,
He scrutinised with a "middle way" judgement.
 
Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu's manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author's ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide - disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena's part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.

Then we could look at accounts of the relationship between Jowo Je Atisha and his teacher Serlingpa. Serlingpa was the teacher who Atisha himself accredited as the one who helped him most in his quest to generate bodhicitta. In this area, he was like his root Lama. Despite this, on the philosophical level they were at variance. Serlingpa held the Cittamatra view. Accounts have it that Serlingpa congratulated Atisha for his practise of bodhicitta, whilst informing him that as far as his philosophical view was concerned he was incorrect. Atisha said though that Serlingpa's instructions only served to boost his confidence in the correctness of the middle way view.

Likewise, we have the case of Dharmakirti. Vasubhandu had many students, one of whom was Dignaga. He was said to have been the one who surpassed even his own master in terms of his understanding of Pramana. Dignaga then had a disciple called Ishvarasena. He in turn had Dharmakirti as a student. Dharmakirti heard explanation of Dignaga's Pramanasamuccaya text from Ishvarasena, but rejected Ishvarasena's interpretation. He then incorporated Ishvarasena's views as the objects of attack in sections of his Pramanavarttika. Thus, when it comes to helping to clarify the doctrine, creating, and rectifying mistakes, even one's own teacher may come under criticism. One can see it in terms of one's teacher having given certain instructions directed at a few specific individuals (when there is a need to give a different message). Whilst this might generally work though, it would be difficult to square in the above-mentioned case of Vasubhandu. At least in the way that Haribhadra has put it, it sounds as though it was Vasubhandu's own bias (as opposed to consideration of any particular disciple) that led him to interpret things in the way that he did. Anyway, whether the original reasons for certain interpretations were due to individual students, other considerations or plain misunderstanding, it may prove necessary for later individuals to clarify things. Rectifying, clarifying and the like are generally accepted approaches for the learned and completely in step with the correct general approach to the teachings. This is way to proceed and help to guard against decline.


But very clearly, it is taken out of context to mean that it is possible to keep Guru devotion while seeing your teacher has erred in some point.
[/color]

3) and if the Dalai Lama DOES respect what his teacher is practising, because it cannae be THAT bad, why discourage everyone else from practising it too?
Perhaps it is a way for him to filter out insincere people? I am not too sure about here...

HELP ME ENSAPA!
I did my best :P


In any case, there are many interesting facts about the ban that sounds really odd or illogical, yet many people still choose to not think deeper and look. But oh well.


Mate you need to sort out the formatting of your response, it was well hard to read.

See I was more referring to this video when I mentioned the Dalai Lama OKd Trijang Rinpoches Dorje Shugden practice

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden Small | Large


To me, what you quoted doesnt have to sound like a threat - to me, it COULD be seen as advice taken out of context, or lacking in explanation. For example, if the Dalai Lama had elaborated to say that ordination etc is not possible because the monasteries would not accept him anyway (due to the ban), then it sounds like advice, not a threat.

Yeah I find that odd - seeing your teacher as being able to make mistakes. Hows that help in tantric practice? Is that whats encouraged amongst his Kalachakra initiates? :S

That sounds possible, filtering out insincere people...I mean who knows, when the bans gone, maybe the Dalai Lama will turn around and say, "Well all those people who didnt hold on to their commitments given by their teachers, who failed my test, you cant receive teachings from me now." Hahaha be interesting for those people to be on the other side of the fence eh? ;D

DharmaDefender

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2012, 09:05:47 AM »
Thank you DharmaDefender for compiling the list. I have two points to add:

1. Why does HH Dalai Lama ban everyone in the world to practice Dorje Shugden, but make exception to HH Trijang Rinpoche and allow Him to practice? If Dorje Shugden is indeed a spirit, why make exception?

2. If Dorje Shugden is indeed a spirit, why are the monasteries who practice Him are spreading the Dharma and also getting a lot of funding?

See kris, Im inclined to follow your reasonings. But let me play devils advocate here - referencing your second point, the CTA can easily turn around and say (as theyve often done) were receiving money from the Chinese government. Or that spirit practice can bring wealth, but only in the short term because long term, your dealing with an unenlightened being so your creating the causes to go to the three lower realms by propitiating a spirit.

How would you answer that then?

kris

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 02:03:47 PM »
@DharmaDefender:

1. CTA claim Dorje Shugden monasteries receive money from Chinese government: What is the problem of a government in supporting monasteries?

2. Practicing spirits can being wealth: Gaden Shartze and many other HH Dalai Lama monasteries also receive many financial supports. How can anyone say that, Gaden Shartze monastery's money is because of Buddha's kindness, but Shar Gaden's money is because of spirit worshiping? If a monastery gets their money from spirit worshiping, the monastery will not produce elite masters and Dharma will not grow (if we believe karma)...

lotus1

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 08:02:41 PM »
Thank you so much Dharma Defender for compiling the list.

May I add 2 more points:

1. Dorje Shugden is the last incarnation in the lineage of enlightened Masters, such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita, Buton Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and many others. Since the lineage is enlightened, Dorje Shugden is also a fully enlightened Buddha and definitely not an evil spirit. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/trijang-rinpoche-is-very-clear-on-this-subject/)

2. Dorje Shugden arose as a Dharma Protector in order to safeguard the precious teachings of the Lama Tsongkhapa and to benefit all sentient beings. If he were evil, why would he protect the precious teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa that is also known for protecting one from the harm from spirits? (Lama Tsongkhapa embodies three Buddha – Avalokitesvara, Manjushri, and Vajrapani. Vajrapani Bodhisattva will protect us from charms, obstacles, disease that are difficult to heal and disharmony.)

Ensapa

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 03:09:49 PM »

Mate you need to sort out the formatting of your response, it was well hard to read.

See I was more referring to this video when I mentioned the Dalai Lama OKd Trijang Rinpoches Dorje Shugden practice

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden

To me, what you quoted doesnt have to sound like a threat - to me, it COULD be seen as advice taken out of context, or lacking in explanation. For example, if the Dalai Lama had elaborated to say that ordination etc is not possible because the monasteries would not accept him anyway (due to the ban), then it sounds like advice, not a threat.
Hmm, an advice does not have an ending with a negative consequence if it does not comply....if thats not a threat, I dont know what it is. Tibetans have a way of making veiled threats against people and this is one of the ways. In any case, I do hope that it is just an advice more than anything else.

Yeah I find that odd - seeing your teacher as being able to make mistakes. Hows that help in tantric practice? Is that whats encouraged amongst his Kalachakra initiates? :S
I dont really know how that helps, but what I do know is that it sounds very surely that the Dalai Lama is using it as a coping mechanism with the trauma from Reting Rinpoche's accusations and also his death. Maybe CTA needs to do something about this? They cannot keep destroying his Gurus and getting away with it, right? because now everyone knows that Reting Rinpoche's accusations are indeed, accusations, is it  not time to ask for forgiveness?

That sounds possible, filtering out insincere people...I mean who knows, when the bans gone, maybe the Dalai Lama will turn around and say, "Well all those people who didnt hold on to their commitments given by their teachers, who failed my test, you cant receive teachings from me now." Hahaha be interesting for those people to be on the other side of the fence eh? ;D
I'm not surprised if HHDL says that and gives them a nasty wake up call that they focused too much on politics and not the teachings. It seems that the momentum is building up now, and it wont be long before the crescendo and HHDL says "no ban. my bad. I made a mistake! sowee!" or declares that its a social experiment and his ultimate lesson to all Tibetan Buddhists.


Interesting points as usual, Dharmadefender, but no matter what, an advice does not start with a condition and end with a hostile repercussion if the condition is not met. But perhaps, this is also part of the act in teaching us beings :)

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 04:27:03 AM »
1) if propitiating Dorje Shugden is SO bad, why doesnt the Dalai Lama keep encouraging his teacher NOT to practise? In fact, the Dalai Lama has made an outright exception for his teacher...why does the Dalai Lama make an exception for Trijang Rinpoche? Wheres the compassion for his own teacher in propitiating a spirit?

2) but the Dalai Lama has so much respect for his teacher, and therefore wont denounce his teacher, then why doesnt the Dalai Lama also respect what his teacher is practising?

3) and if the Dalai Lama DOES respect what his teacher is practising, because it cannae be THAT bad, why discourage everyone else from practising it too?

HELP ME ENSAPA!
Dalai Lama pays exceptionally high respect to his teacher Trijang Rinpoche who attained highly then himself and therefore has no issue to practise the Dorje Shugden technique. This is also the respect needed of disciples for its teacher in vajra tradition, and apparently, they will pay homage to their teacher before paying homage to Buddha or Bodhisavatta statue in vajra tradition. DL probably was out of care and concern for the well being and attainment of the disciples in view of the untoward development for Dorje Shugden that outsiders may not aware of.  8)


Ensapa

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 10:27:07 AM »
Thank you so much Dharma Defender for compiling the list.

May I add 2 more points:

1. Dorje Shugden is the last incarnation in the lineage of enlightened Masters, such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita, Buton Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and many others. Since the lineage is enlightened, Dorje Shugden is also a fully enlightened Buddha and definitely not an evil spirit. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/trijang-rinpoche-is-very-clear-on-this-subject/)
You nailed it right on the head. If someone like those masters can end their lineage of benefitting others with a spirit and not benefitting others, then what is the point of having attainments because it shows that the Buddha's teachings do not have power and attainments are reversible. If attainments are reversible, then why are we spending so much time practicing it?

2. Dorje Shugden arose as a Dharma Protector in order to safeguard the precious teachings of the Lama Tsongkhapa and to benefit all sentient beings. If he were evil, why would he protect the precious teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa that is also known for protecting one from the harm from spirits? (Lama Tsongkhapa embodies three Buddha – Avalokitesvara, Manjushri, and Vajrapani. Vajrapani Bodhisattva will protect us from charms, obstacles, disease that are difficult to heal and disharmony.)
If one holds their vows strongly then why would one be afraid of spirits? If one understands the law of karma, is it possible to be afraid of spirits? If one has attainments, can one be harmed by spirits? clearly, this argument is invalid in more ways than one. Why would Chenrenzig be afraid of a spirit? A Bodhisattva fearing a spirit sounds ridiculous to me unless the whole thing is just a smokescreen.


Thanks for your points as it provoked me to have some of my own. These are some of the things i do not understand about the whole ban thing and the insistence that Dorje Shugden is a spirit. He takes the form of a spirit, but he is a Buddha.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Reasons why the ban doesnt make sense
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 10:46:13 AM »
Reading through the reasons why the ban doesn't make sense is clear that something is amiss.  It is seldom that any Ban ever makes sense unless proven that harm that can be caused. A Ban is normally imposed to control and to assert power.