Author Topic: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!  (Read 8962 times)

LosangKhyentse

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See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« on: February 11, 2010, 09:18:06 AM »


Also, "Although it is not stated in the biography of the Fifth Dalai Lama, according to common tradition, it is believed that Dakpa Gyaltsen was killed by stuffing his mouth with scarves." Fourteenth Dalai Lama in a talk, July 13th, 1978.

Buddhist ontology distinguishes between different levels of existence, between gross and subtle material bodies. While human beings and most animals have gross material form, the majority of beings have subtle energy bodies invisible to common perception of the material senses. All Buddhist protectors and most other helpful beings in the Buddhist pantheon are believed to have such subtle mental energy bodies invisible to the physical eye. Dorje Shugden is one of those materially invisible forces believed by those who rely on him to be in the same continuity as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, the accomplished master whose actions were considered beyond evil intent.

See for example the Fourteenth Dalai Lama's statement,

"It is my view that Tulku Dakpa Gyaltsen's instinctive behaviour and ways of thinking were good.

I have looked at his Collected Works which also contain his secret biography. He seems to have been good in

his studies and to have a gentle subdued mind.
In his biography there are a few Guru Yoga texts, one of

which has Buddha Shakyamuni in the center and around him: Guru Rinpoche [Padmasambhava] (9th century)

surrounded by the Guru lineage of the Nyingma Order, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo (1092-1158) surrounded by the

Guru lineage of the Sakya order; Marpa (1012-1097), Mila (1052-1135) and Dwagpo (1079-1161) surrounded

by the Guru Lineage of Kagyud order; Je-Rinpoche [Tsong Khapa] (1375-419) and his two spiritual sons

surrounded by the Gurus of Gelug order;.... teachings of past Sakya, Gelug, Kagyud and Nyingma masters are

summarized and it is explained that one should pay homage and recite eulogies through recollecting their

qualities. At the conclusion, he explains that a boundless crime based on contemporary sectarianism produces

causes to be thrown into bad realms and that he had written this Guru Yoga deliberately to avoid such

negative results. Having seen that, I thought it was good. Usually, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is considered a

biased deity, since there was this account in the Collected Works of Dakpa Gyaltsen, I thought it was good."

From the Fourteenth Dalai Lama's talk on July 13th, 1978.




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The above was extracted from: http://www.shugdensociety.info/Bernis2EN.html



It shows clearly from Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen's writings that he is not sectarian or biased in anyway. He has written guru yogas for all four traditions. The 14th Dalai Lama himself mentions that Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen has good instinctive behaviour, well studied, gentle in the mind and good ways of thinking.

Since Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen from his writings and secret biograpahy, we can see he is a great being, how can his successor, the incarnate emanation (Dorje Shugden) become the opposite of his previous mindstream. That would oppose the law of cause and effect and also mind. A negative mind cannot spring from a positive mind.

It is very interesting to see when we study deeper the contradictions that the Dorje Shugden ban is based on.

tk



WisdomBeing

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 01:49:20 PM »
Thank you for this latest posting, together with references. The 14th Dalai Lama has been consistently inconsistent with regard to this ban.

The 14th Dalai Lama composed the Melody of the Unceasing Vajra (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346) and he has permitted HH Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=295).

The 14th Dalai Lama has also said that he is very close to the 5th Dalai Lama who initially tried to destroy DS practice but later regretted and built the first temple to DS. Perhaps the 14th Dalai Lama will follow in the 5th Dalai Lama's footsteps in this regard too.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 11:19:27 PM »
yes, totally political. how can the dalai lama just "suddenly" realise that he has made a mistake with regards to a practice that he is doing and which has been passed to him by his teachers? Does he trust his teachers or doesn't he? (Guru devotion is the root of all our practice after all!)

Criticising other lamas can only lead to becoming more and more political because once we start speaking against one lama/method/school, then we have already "taken sides" and are already passing a judgement as to which is "right" or "wrong".

Are we even at the level to judge and criticise? Do we have that level of knowledge and attainments to be able critique other lamas?

Yes, perhaps we don't want to do a certain practice or don't even agree with what is being done. But we can still at least just respect the other person's right to practice. Show your respect by doing your own practice well. If you really want to win people over to "your side" and the practice that you are doing, show it by example. Show it by the very thing you are trying to promote, which is Dharma. Kindness wins people over, not the nasty politics which only serves to put people down.

thor

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 11:30:37 PM »
Trijang Rinpoche doesn't need the DL's permission to practice Shugden, such an idea is completely unprecedented and merely political. 

True. But what's important to note is that DL actually GAVE his permission/blessings for Trijang Rinpoche to practice. I have said this before and I will say it again: This is just plain illogical. Why doesnt Trijang Rinpoche's practice:
 - shorten DL's life?
 - endanger Tibetan Independence?
Why on earth does DL even allow him to practice anyway? I'm happy he said that because that makes him even more inconsistent but I dont understand it.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 11:55:33 AM »

True. But what's important to note is that DL actually GAVE his permission/blessings for Trijang Rinpoche to practice. I have said this before and I will say it again: This is just plain illogical. Why doesnt Trijang Rinpoche's practice:
 - shorten DL's life?
 - endanger Tibetan Independence?
Why on earth does DL even allow him to practice anyway? I'm happy he said that because that makes him even more inconsistent but I dont understand it.


The Dalai lama is definitely contradicting himself for a reason. A Bigger reason.

Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is highly attained and can control Dorje Shugden hence he is allowed to practice.

So why doesn't Dalai lama ask Trijang Rinpoche to control Dorje Shugden all the way and make Dorje Shugden not harm Dalai Lama's life span and Tibetan Indepedence. Since Trijang Rinpoche 'controls' dorje shugden in that manner, the REST OF US CAN PRACTICE BECAUSE THE ISSUE OF DORJE SHUGDEN HARMING DALAI LAMA AND TIBETAN INDEPENDENCE IS GONE??

That is an easy solution isn't it?

TK


thor

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »
Another easy solution:
Why doesnt Dalai Lama himself control Dorje Shugden so that he is no longer a threat to the Tibetan cause? Dalai Lama is as highly attained as Trijang Rinpoche and is more senior, at least as far as their current incarnations go.

So, if you believe that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, that means Dalai Lama is allowing Dorje Shugden to continue existing. And he is allowing the lineage to continue.

Great food for thought especially in relations to this post
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0

LosangKhyentse

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 03:17:11 AM »


Dear Dulzin,

Very good points. Thank you.

TK

a friend

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 03:00:02 AM »
Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate. 
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.

LosangKhyentse

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 10:06:40 AM »
Dear A Friend,

I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.

Let me make some things clear to you please:

1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more.  I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.

2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.

3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.

4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.

5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.

6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.

7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.

8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.

9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.

10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.


Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.

I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.

I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.

A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.

I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.

Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.


Much sincerity,


Tk

P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.




a friend

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 06:20:02 PM »

I am at a loss for words. The kindness of your heart is matched by the kindness of your speech. Your kind considerate words are among the best gifts I could receive this Losar.
I think we are both very close to our Protector. Our Protector and my Lama are inseparable. This is something difficult to describe in words. The only thing I can say is that in this difficult path where we try to liberate ourselves and all others from samsara's torments, to be constantly with him, with them, is a good fortune beyond description, a good fortune that I wish so much all beings might have, soon, very soon.
You say that you have stories. Please please dear TK, tell us some of your stories. It would help many among us.
Again, thank you for your kindness.
 Happy Losar, happy Mónlam Chenmo! May your best wishes come true!


DharmaSpace

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 05:57:23 PM »
I was googling on tulku dragpa gyeltsen and found this old post. This is something goo to read again.

For us to have a positive mind or motivations, we must have positive mind and motives and if we have it now the future will be same positive minds and motivations. The mind is a continuum. If we have detachment or even renunciation from previous lives we will have it in this life, if we had spiritual realisations in previous lives we will have it in this life also.

vajrastorm

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 12:02:45 AM »
This thread reminds us of the contradictions in words and deeds of HH Dalai Lama with regards to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (and Dorje Shugden).

Here, we are told that in 1978, HH Dalai Lama described Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen as  having "instinctive behavior and ways of thinking (that were)good"and that he had a"gentle subdued mind".

HH Dalai Lama also shows us that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was non-sectarian: he had written Guru Yogas for all four traditions and lineages.

These contradictions underlying the Dalai Lama's attitude towards Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (and Dorje Shugden)again point to the fact that there must surely be a bigger picture. 

WisdomBeing

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2011, 04:25:05 PM »
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, Dharma Space. I enjoyed reading the comments of the Dalai Lama again but I also enjoyed reading the exchange between Afriend and tk - if we can have more harmony and mutual respect among Shugden practitioners like this, i think we will create the causes for Dorje Shugden to be universally accepted and the ban will fade away.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 03:05:13 PM »
For some odd reason, when I was younger i visualized the exact same Guru tree: the one with all the lineages of Tibetan Buddhism inside and I make my appeals and prayers. I am very, very surprised to find this here to be very honest because I had never had read this anywhere else before. In all traditions there has never been such a Guru tree painted or made publicly known.

Perhaps one day someone can paint a thangkha of this Guru tree and showcase this to everyone, that Gelug and Rime are the only 2 uniting factors of Tibet and they will build the foundation of a new Tibet where there is no discrimination and the teachings and the Dharma are properly interpreted and practiced and more importantly that nobody gets left out unlike the current government.

Why did HHDL speak highly and positively of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen before the ban and reduced him to a "being born with distorted prayers" after the ban? why such inconsistency? Why are these questions not answered by the Dalai Lama or his camp? Why does his army of anti Shugden scholars not address the core inconsistencies that this website has presented? Is it because they have nothing to answer? Or because their facts are not facts but mere propaganda?

How much more history of great masters will have to be distorted in order to make them politically correct? the collection of Sakya texts no longer mentions Dorje Shugden, but other historical accounts that were archived elsewhere mentions Dorje Shugden clearly. Now, history is being contorted about Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. If history is to be modified according to our will, then what is the use of keeping historical records? might as well believe in fiction!

dsiluvu

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Re: See what Dalai Lama says re Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen in 1978!
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 08:18:10 PM »
This old post is a good read as we can see again how illogical the reasons given and the contradiction in what the Dalai Lama says about Dorje Shugden/Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

Either the Dalai Lama is not that bright or the Dalai Lama has something different in mind? I definitely do not think the Dalai Lama is unaware about how He contradicts himself on numerous occasions. I honestly think it is on purpose.  And if He is Chenrezig as many believe... then how can a Buddha be harmed by a spirit? If we buy that then why bother praying to the Buddhas?

And now the Dalai Lama has resigned from being the Tibetan's "temporal leader" and from politics, this means the new PM is responsible for the well being of Tibetan's in exile... and the rules/laws can be changed.

For one, no democratic govt ever touches or talk about spirituality because democracy stands for ethical equal rights for all, and this applies to spirituality, and definite do not "Ban" them! Lets see what the new PM will do for his own people iregardless of their spiritual practice. Because whatever their spiritual beliefs may be, they are still Tibetan. If the carry on banning DS the might as well ban those in Bon religion also. 

Lets hope this will change since most of the things/facts can be change... like the practice your Guru gives you.