Author Topic: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?  (Read 23160 times)

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2017, 06:18:52 AM »
"I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)" Quote from Ringo Starr

I am intrigued by this comment, not to contradict this noble comment by Ringo Starr but are we Shugdenpas to continue via our either noble or ignorant ways in accepting all the discrimination inclusive of the ban against our religious freedom and rights by viewing all the wrongs as illusionary play or a bigger picture beyond our comprehension? 

Is the non ability of the 103rd Gaden Tripa to finish his term through passing away another illustration of the bigger picture or that breaking samaya with our Gurus is a gross misconduct?

My apologies if I am offensive which is not my intention. 

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
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I am intrigued by this comment, not to contradict this noble comment by Ringo Starr but are we Shugdenpas to continue via our either noble or ignorant ways in accepting all the discrimination inclusive of the ban against our religious freedom and rights by viewing all the wrongs as illusionary play or a bigger picture beyond our comprehension? 

Is the non ability of the 103rd Gaden Tripa to finish his term through passing away another illustration of the bigger picture or that breaking samaya with our Gurus is a gross misconduct?

Well said Dondrup Shugden; I wish I could express myself with such clarity.

By the way, exactly this same reasoning of yours applies to the gross misconduct displayed by the evil dalie, and still some people insist on “seeing” the big deceiving propaganda picture of the criminal as “Chenrezig”...

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2017, 02:08:32 PM »
In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, she drib).

In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kles
shavarana, nyön-drib)

In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar the artificial ignorance (parikalpita-avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa)

Ringo Starr

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2017, 02:49:30 PM »
In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, she drib).

In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kles
shavarana, nyön-drib)

In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar the artificial ignorance (parikalpita-avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa)

Thank you Matibhadra for this line of explanation. Let me take it further if you don't mind.

How would you explain (without going into the future lives stuff because ordinary people like me just don't buy it) why, according to the line of theory in this thread, the 103rd Ganden Tripa broke samaya and died like an ordinary person with black karma ripening all the way whereas HH the "evil" Dalai Lama is still lucid and in the pink health?

I would think that how we view the two different protagonists comes from our side, whether we are the CTA, Lobsang Sangay, or John Doe. Logically I cannot but come to the conclusion that both HH Dalai Lama and the 103rd are in an illusory play.

I do however agree with the comments that we should not just accept illusory play and not do anything, not create the causes or conditions for this illusory play to take its course in a direction that would be positive for the spread of the stainless teachings of Je Tsongkhapa and the all-compassionate-wisdom of enlightened protector Dorje Shugden.

And what is the current incarnation of Zong Rinpoche doing? Is he breaking samaya too and will also face the same fate as the 103rd? I wonder.




Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2017, 03:03:23 PM »
(My previous message was unintentionally posted while still incomplete; here follows the full version):

In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, shes bya'i sgrib pa).

In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kleshavarana, nyon mong pa'i sgrib pa).
 
In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar to artificial ignorance (parikalpita avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa).

In other words, the process which binds us to samsara, and the process which binds people to an unscrupulous tyrant such as the evil dalie posing as “Chenrezig”, are not dissimilar. Now, as Buddhists, we all want liberation from samsara, but how distant is such achievement if we are unable to get rid even of such gross delusion as the impostor evil impostor dalie posing as “Chenrezig”!

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2017, 04:53:55 PM »
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How would you explain (without going into the future lives stuff because ordinary people like me just don't buy it)

If you want to refute past and future lives you should show your reasons, instead of just blindly rejecting them, like as a stubborn donkey refusing to move forward.

Merely claiming that ordinary people “just don't buy it” is a faulty reason, because many ordinary people do accept past and future lives.

Besides, within Buddhism past and future lives are explained on the basis of reasons, and therefore its understanding is perfectly accessible to ordinary people.

Moreover, your statement thoroughly contradicts your own previous statement in the current thread, where you explicitly said:

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I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)

Indeed, how could you propose a “karmic side” while rejecting past and future lives, apart from which there is no karma, as explained by the Buddha?

Unless you are proposing some kind of irrational, Judaized “karma”, which dispenses with past and future lives; but then you should clearly state it in a preliminary way.

You should also explain why should ordinary people buy into your irrational, Judaized “karma” without previous and future lives while rejecting a perfectly rational karma with past and future lives.

Besides, since you so gullibly buy into a pseudo-esoteric “illusory play side which will show its results”, please explain exactly why should an ordinary person buy into such a ridiculous nonsense.

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why, according to the line of theory in this thread, the 103rd Ganden Tripa broke samaya and died like an ordinary person with black karma ripening all the way whereas HH the "evil" Dalai Lama is still lucid and in the pink health?

Necessarily because of karma, which according to your own above statement you do accept.

And, since karma does entail past and future lives, then you must accept past and future lives as well, which effortlessly completes your requested explanation.

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I would think that how we view the two different protagonists comes from our side, whether we are the CTA, Lobsang Sangay, or John Doe. Logically I cannot but come to the conclusion that both HH Dalai Lama and the 103rd are in an illusory play.

While I cannot say anything about the 103rd Ganden Tripa, it is clear that the evil dalie lame, as his very name suggests, is indeed the perpetrator of lame lies, or the player of delusional propaganda games aimed at manipulating people; who would deny it?

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And what is the current incarnation of Zong Rinpoche doing? Is he breaking samaya too and will also face the same fate as the 103rd? I wonder.

How could I possibly know? I'm just a  ordinary person. And since you claim to be an ordinary person as well, why do you spend your time buying into such useless speculations, instead of reflecting on reasonable and useful topics, such as karma and past and future lives?

Ringo Starr

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2017, 02:50:34 AM »
Dear Matibhadra,

Thank you for your extensive comment on my comment.

So here are two scenarios:

1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature. In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.

Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air. I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.

There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.

Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health, lucid, like there is no karmic repercussions for avatar Dalai's actions? Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?

2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives. He is a darn good politician who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not. Hell awaits.




ShugdenProtector

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2017, 11:51:19 AM »

So here are two scenarios:

1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature. In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.

Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air. I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.

There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.

Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health, lucid, like there is no karmic repercussions for avatar Dalai's actions? Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?

2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives. He is a darn good politician who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not. Hell awaits.

Hi Ringo Star... based on your comments... I have some questions...

So if we pick scenario No.1 and believe that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig then surely he would have some kind of clairvoyant and would know that this 103rd Gaden Tripa he picked is not going to last on this throne. So why would he picked such a short lived Gaden Tripa and embarrassed himself? Why would he be so uncompassionate and put his life at risk for not having enough merits to sit on the holy Je Tsongkhapa's throne?

And if we go with scenario no.2 then we should just stop the discussion here and just keep spreading and promoting Dorje Shugden through so many of our great lineage lamas like HH Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche the current one, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and many more lamas. One really active and championing in spreading Dorje Shugden is no doubt Ven Tsem T Rinpoche. But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2017, 01:00:52 PM »
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So here are two scenarios:
1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature.

If so, what you call “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” is a gangster, and Buddhists don't need it.

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In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.

Which is a proof that your “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” is anything except for the bodhisatva Chenrezig.

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Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air.

Which is further proof that your gangster is just a transvestite of “Chenrezig Bodhsattva”.

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I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.

What would you expect from a gangster transvestite as “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” together with his minions?

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There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.

The problem here is that is that you believe that the bodhisattva Chenrezig must a a gangster. For instance, Jews believe that their “God” must be a bloodythirsty mass murderer, as described in their own scriptures. Maybe you are in the wrong religion.

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Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health,

Henry Kissinger (still alive at 94 yers old), Augusto Pinochet (dead at 91 years old), Ariel Sharon (half dead at 78 years old, fully dead at dead at 86 years old), and many other mass murderers went around and beyond their eighties in the pink of health, which means that according to your logic they were all “Chenrezig”, right?

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lucid,

Do you call the sick monster who promotes gruesome self-immolations, bloody racist riots, perverse witch-hunts, and who specifically promised that he will be worse than the Cultural Revolution... “lucid”? Then who else is “lucid” in you opinion? Jack the Stripper? Dr. Jekyll?

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like there is no karmic repercussions

The lack of karmic repercussions for a criminal (or for anyone to that effect) is a Jewish, not a Buddhist tenet. You might have posted in the wrong forum.

For instance, Jewish “prophets” such as Moses and Joshua, according to the Jewish scriptures themselves, perpetrate every kind of inconceivably abominable bloody actions, including against (non-Jewish) women and children, but fear no karmic consequences.

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for avatar Dalai's actions?

Since you want to ascribe some kind of high religious status to a criminal, why don't you try Judaism rather than Buddhism? Then the evil dalie, instead of an “avatar”, could be a “prophet”, for instance.

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Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?

Doesn't matter, as long as dead or alive he goes were he belongs, the garbage bin of history.

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2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician

What a joke. Do you call this failed spectrum who is obliged shamefully to leave the White House by the back door in the midst of piles of garbage like a hungry ghost a “very successful politician”?

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who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives.

Well, Buddhists do believe in karma.

But, since the evil dalie obviously does not (which by the way he explicitly declared in his propagandistic talks with Western materialist dogmatists popularly called “scientists”), this is further reason showing his uncontrollable penchant for Abrahamist, Jewish materialistim (and Jewish money as well, considering the generous support he receives from the Jewish financial terrorist George Soros), rather than any instinct for Buddhism.

Forget not that the evil dalie was born a Abrahamist Muslim, and considering how much he reviles his Buddhist tutors, never became a Buddhist in the first place.

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He is a darn good politician

Who failed to achieve any of his goals, except for receiving, as a good puppet, money from the CIA and other sponsors of terrorism such as George Soros (the one who also finances Shugden-haters such as Ringu “tulku”, the mentor of notorious Shugden-hater “Tenzin Peljor”, vis his Tsadra Foundation).

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who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not.

Many cult leaders like Shoko Asahara (himself an evil dalie's close friend), Jim Jones, Reverend Moon, and so forth, managed to build a global following. They are all “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” according to you.

And they all think or thought they are practicing some kind of “virtue”. This is the very nature of cults.

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Hell awaits.

Leaving hell aside, as far as humanity is concerned, the garbage bin of history is good enough.

Ringo Starr

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2017, 02:34:27 PM »
So if we pick scenario No.1 and believe that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig then surely he would have some kind of clairvoyant and would know that this 103rd Gaden Tripa he picked is not going to last on this throne. So why would he picked such a short lived Gaden Tripa and embarrassed himself? Why would he be so uncompassionate and put his life at risk for not having enough merits to sit on the holy Je Tsongkhapa's throne?

Simple, to teach the laws of karma and in this scenario, the 103rd would also be an avatar acting out this teaching.

And if we go with scenario no.2 then we should just stop the discussion here and just keep spreading and promoting Dorje Shugden through so many of our great lineage lamas like HH Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche the current one, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and many more lamas. One really active and championing in spreading Dorje Shugden is no doubt Ven Tsem T Rinpoche. But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?

Because I think that would break the Bodhisattva vows

Ringo Starr

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2017, 02:54:33 PM »
Dear Mathibadra,

Wow, more comments on comments on comments.

You know what, you are right. You are right because everything can be negated for there is a lack of inherent existence. Evil Dalie is a projection, false Dalai is a projection, Chenrezig avatars are projections too. So I too if I bother, can negate every one of your labels.

The only engine that can is interdependence, cause and effect. So if we want anything to materialize, we better created the causes. So I shall sign off from this topic and go do something more productive.

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2017, 03:36:40 PM »
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You know what, you are right. You are right because everything can be negated for there is a lack of inherent existence.

Wrong. Lack of inherent existence, as the name suggests, merely negates an imagined inherent existence, nothing else.

Your nihilistic view that lack of inherent existence negates “everything” is an extreme repudiated by the Buddha, by Je Tsongkhapa, and of course by reason.

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Evil Dalie is a projection, false Dalai is a projection, Chenrezig avatars are projections too.

Being a “projection”, or merely designated by a consciousness, is the same as existing. Since the evil dalie and the false dalie do exist, such an entity is necessarily designated by a valid, reliable consciousness, and therefore a “projection” too.

By the way, your insistence on the usage of the non-Buddhist, Hinduist term “avatar” in relation to Chenrezig and the evil dalie is interesting, as according to some scholars the myth of the Dalai Lamas being emanations of Chenrezig (Avalokiteshvara) is indeed just a theocratic political concoction based on the Hindu conception of an avatar of Vishnu being an ideal king.

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So I too if I bother, can negate every one of your labels.

You bothered to, and were miserably defeated.

Now you have no choice except for signing off from this topic and pretending that you are going to do something more productive.

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So I shall sign off from this topic and go do something more productive.


I told you. Now please don't forget to flush, after producing what you call “productive”.

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2017, 04:25:55 PM »
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But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?

Except for NKT, all such lamas are somehow integrated into traditional Tibetan society, where criticizing the a high theocrat such as the evil dalie is traditionally punished with death, being skinned alive, having eyes plucked out, bones broken member maimed. Now, even in exile, there are the abominable, medieval kill-lists for everyone to see even in official websites.

These lamas you refer to are no idiots, which is obviously a difficult topic for you to understand.

Matibhadra

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2017, 04:28:39 PM »
(same as previous message, typos corrected)

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But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?

Except for NKT, all such lamas are somehow integrated into traditional Tibetan society, where criticizing a high theocrat such as the evil dalie is traditionally punished with death, being skinned alive, having eyes plucked out, bones broken, members maimed, and so forth. Now, even in exile, there are the abominable, medieval kill-lists for everyone to see even in official websites.

These lamas you refer to are no idiots, which is obviously a difficult topic for you to understand.

Ringo Starr

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Re: Tsem Tulku connected to 103rd Gaden Tripa?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2017, 05:38:15 PM »
Dear Matibhadra,
Your paraphrasing and extrapolating is tiresome.
You also seem to like to hear yourself speak and propound theories without strong and deep basis.

Yes, Je Tsongkhapa negated both extremes of nihilism and the view of a solid, graspable self. What is left is interdependent arising. If you had read my comment in whole you would have understood that.