Author Topic: Kelsang Rabten responds to Shar Gaden ex-monk speaking on Trijang Rinpoche  (Read 31237 times)

vajratruth

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In essence, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is also accusing Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden to be incompetent or dishonest since Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden were significantly involved in the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche

Do you have any hard evidence that the NKT hate propaganda originates from, or is in any way supported by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? if you do, please show it to the rest of us, but if you don't please apologize and stop defaming the great teacher and propagating your own hate speech, by the way unsuitable to your condition of moderator of this website.

Matibhadra,

You should ask Kelsang Rabten, or any NKT person. Do you seriously suggest that the Kelsangs would do anything without Geshela's directive? Wouldn't it look absolutely ridiculous that a couple of the NKT people decided to question a senior lama's spiritual qualifications especially when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has nothing whatsoever to do with them.

The right question you should be asking is where's the proof that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a 'fake'.

The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.

Matibhadra

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Vajratruth, you say

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You should ask Kelsang Rabten, or any NKT person.

This is what *you* should have done before irresponsibly leveling unwarranted accusations against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

Now that you recognize that your gross accusation has zero hard evidence in its support, at least have the decency to apologize, instead of cynically asking me to do your job.

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Do you seriously suggest that the Kelsangs would do anything without Geshela's directive?

Of course! Or tell me that bad disciples misusing the name of their teacher is something new to you?

Anyway, now you confess that your gross accusation is based on the mere, ridiculous presumption that disciples are always faithful to their teachers.

In other words, you have just confessed your thorough lack of hard evidence in support of your accusation.

Now, please show some decency and do apologize, or change your nickname to something like “vajraslanderer”.

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Wouldn't it look absolutely ridiculous that a couple of the NKT people decided to question a senior lama's spiritual qualifications especially when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has nothing whatsoever to do with them.

So what. Even more ridiculous is your assumption that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind them. And beyond ridiculous, it is shameful that you level such a gross accusation on the mere basis of such a ridiculous assumption.

By the way, according to your own logic, behind your false accusation there must be some Geshe Kelsang Gyatso-hating lama, because it would look ridiculous for you to question Geshe-la's qualifications, right?

Therefore, make the bold step and reveal who is the defaming lama behind you.

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The right question you should be asking is where's the proof that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a 'fake'.

If I wanted an answer to this question I would ask it to them, not to you. But since I'm talking to *you* and not to them, the only right question, which you shamefully try to evade, is where is *your* proof that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the slandering against Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.   

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The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.

Again, my dialogue is with you, not with them; therefore I have asked *your* to provide a proof in support to *your* defaming statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which obviously you have miserably failed to offer.

Bottom line, your main concern here is not even to refute the sordid accusations from NKT's side, but above all to slander such a pure teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso while failing to provide any evidence supporting your defamatory statements.

vajratruth

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The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.


Again, my dialogue is with you, not with them; therefore I have asked *your* to provide a proof in support to *your* defaming statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which obviously you have miserably failed to offer.

Bottom line, your main concern here is not even to refute the sordid accusations from NKT's side, but above all to slander such a pure teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso while failing to provide any evidence supporting your defamatory statements.


Matibhadra,

All your lexical acrobatics is about one thing only - to avoid demanding sound proof from the Kelsangs that can justifies their hurtful and baseless accusations of Tijang Choktrul Rinpoche.

Every demand you have made of me, should peremptorily be directed to the NKT for first accusing then proceeding to print material/allowing to be published to defame Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. It is reasonable for anyone to make the assumption that the now anti-Trijang stance is an official NKT position since various statements to the effect have been made by NKT office bearers. In addition the Open Letter defaming Trijang Choktrul is posted on the NKT's official website (http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc).

If the NKT's good name has been misused by "bad students" then you are accusing Kelsang Rabten and Kelsang Pagpa who are known NKT teachers, as well as the Deputy Spiritual Director of NKT-IKBU who signed the Open Letter to be bad students. If that is so then perhaps Geshe Kelsang can direct for the Open Letter to be removed and an apology/disclaimer to be published. This has not happened. I suspect it will never happen but why don't you try and ask the NKT website Admin for good measure.

Strange that you feel it is shameful for me to infer that Geshe Kelsang is behind this repugnant affair but its ok for various Kelsangs, office bearers of NKT and official NKT sites to viciously attack Trijang Rinpoche and Gonsar Rinpoche without cause.

Why the double standard unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.

By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we? This a public forum and so all conversations are public.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 01:49:12 PM by vajratruth »

Matibhadra

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All your acrobatics

Then demanding proof of your unwarranted accusations is “acrobatics” in your dictionary, is it?

And cowardly evading giving such proof is what then in your dictionary? The honorable act of a man?
 
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is about one thing only - to avoid demanding proof from the Kelsangs that justifies their hurtful and baseless accusations that Tijang Choktrul Rinpoche is fake.

If you want such proof from them, ask directly them for it, not me. Since it's you, not me, interested in this proof, why should I do your job?

Asking such proof from me is your own acrobatics, aimed at evading your duty to give hard evidence in support of your irresponsible, slanderous statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

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Every demand you have made of me, should first be directed to the NKT for first accusing then publishing material/allowing to be published to defame Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.


Who slandered Geshe Kelsang Gyatso with sordid accusations against him was you; therefore you and only you are responsible for the proof of your sordid accusations.

But instead of honorably offering such proof, as though you had one, you cowardly try to hide behind NKT's own misdeeds, as though such misdeeds would exempt you from your duty.

The fact is, you have no proof at all showing that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is the one behind the slanderous statements against Trijang Choktrul, and therefore you are guilty of slander against the holy lama.

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It is reasonable for anyone to make the assumption that the anti-Trijang stance is an official NKT position since various statements to the effect have been made by NKT office bearers and the Open Letter defaming Trijang Choktrul is still on the NKT's official website (http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc).


That NKT perpetrated such slander is not just an assumption, but rather a demonstrated fact. But NKT is not necessarily Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

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If the NKT's good name has been misused by "bad students" (and this case, you are accusing Kelsang Rabten and Kelsang Pagpa who are known NKT teachers, and the Deputy Spiritual Director of NKT-IKBU to be bad students), then perhaps Geshe Kelsang can direct for the Open Letter to be removed and an apology/disclaimer to be published.


Can he? Since I'm not omniscient I cannot know whether or not he can. But since you claim to know that he can, please prove it.

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This has not happened. I suspect it will never happen


It's possible, but this still proves nothing

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but why don't you try and ask the NKT website Admin for good measure.


Why should I? It's you, not me disturbed by their slander. Wherefrom did you get this habit of asking others to perform your own tasks?

Personally I could not care less about the slandering statements coming from a bunch of greedy bureaucrats I'm not related to. But if you care, go ahead and ask them whatever you want, instead of asking others to do your job.

However, your request that I ask them this or that is not sincere. It is only your acrobatics to evade your duty to provide proof for your slander against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

You lack sincerity; this is your root problem. You and maybe some fake, envious lama behind you.

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Strange that you feel it is shameful for me to infer that Geshe Kelsang is behind this repugnant affair


To “infer”? This is a joke. You are mistaking unproved assumption for inference, which is valid cognition. Try reading Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's “Understanding the Mind”.

Anyway, it is not shameful for you to infer, or even to presume whatever. What is shameful is to make slandering statements without proof, and indecently to evade offering such proof. 

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but its ok for various Kelsangs, office bearers of NKT and official NKT sites to viciously attack Trijang Rinpoche and Gonsar Rinpoche without cause.


Of course the various Kelsangs's attitude is as shameful as yours, because both you and them are slandering holy lamas while lacking any proof. The difference is that they are not part of the current discussion, whereas you are.

The funny thing here is that you lack the decency both to provide proof to support your own slandering and to ask directly the Kelsangs for a proof to support their own statements, rather asking me to do your job!

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Why the double standard


No double standard from my side. The difference is that I'm talking to you, not to them; therefore I ask you, not them, to provide proof in support of your own slander.

Meanwhile, the blatant double standard from your side is that while you fail to provide proof for your own slander, you want the Kelsangs to provide proof for their slander, and what is worse, you lack the guts to ask such proof directly to them, but rather want me to do your job! Talk about acrobatics! I call this cowardice.

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unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its semi-ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.


Even being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I would not support a slander coming from his side, and even not being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I will denounce anyone slandering him as you do.

Besides, who told you that Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches are not my teachers? The difference between you and me is that if I wanted proof from the 



By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we? This a public forum and so all conversations are public.

Matibhadra

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unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its semi-ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.

Even being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I would not support a slander coming from his side, and even not being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I will denounce anyone slandering him as you do.

Besides, who told you that Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches are not my teachers?

The difference between you and me is that if I make a statement I offer a proof, while you cowardly evade offering any proof in support of your own slanderous statements, rather cowardly asking me to ask someone else for the proof you did not have the guts to ask yourself! What a shameful, unmanly behavior!

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By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we?

The behavior of self-respecting people, both in private and in public, is that if you make a slanderous statement you have to show the proof, and if you fail to show the proof (as you did), you should apologize and retract from your slanderous statements (which again you fail to do).

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This a public forum and so all conversations are public.

So what. But since, as above shown, you lack self-respect even in public, one can know by inference what happens in private!

Matibhadra

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« Last Edit: Today at 01:49:12 PM by vajratruth »

You have just edited you previous post. May I suggest that if change you mind you write another post instead of trying to deny and hide whatever wrong was written before.

vajratruth

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« Last Edit: Today at 01:49:12 PM by vajratruth »

You have just edited you previous post. May I suggest that if change you mind you write another post instead of trying to deny and hide whatever wrong was written before.

And what factual change did I make? None.

Matibadhra, there is no benefit in continuing with this debate with you and so I will stop. Time will tell if Geshe Kelsang is behind this fiasco or not, but this much is for sure - the NKT Kelsangs are definitely not qualified to judge Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche or indeed anyone's teacher.

Zeba Minor

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Matibadhra and Vajratruth,

There can only be a few possibilities -

1. GKG is unaware or senile or have totally lost control of NKT which is being now being run by people with bad intentions;
2. GKG is fully aware and behind this undermining of Trichan so that NKT is safe from students defecting to Trichan who offers a more traditional and authentic brand of Tibetan Buddhism;
3. NKT has cut a deal with the Dalai clique and together they now plan to destroy the Gelukpa or Shukden worshipping Geluk sect;
4. Trichan Chotrul is not the real tulku of Trichan Dorjejang and GKG must speak before the fake tulku gets more powerful;
5. GKG is inflaming the old Geluk-Shukden foundation (Gongsa, Pabonkka, Trichan, Ganchen et al) to take action and group the already fragmented Shukden lamas, because 20 years they did nothing but GKG fought the war himself and took on many sufferings. Later Tsem joined and then Zawa and some others. But the other lamas stood by to see the lineage being ruined.

Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct but his loyalty blinds him to reality. Vajratruth is pro-Tibetan lama to see that many things NKT accuse of tulku system is right and must change.

Whatever option you select won't matter because the old Geluk-Shukden lamas will not do anything. This is how the Shukden lineage will end. By people who can, deciding to do nothing the Shukden practice will become insiginificant. They say they will revive when Dalai is no more but if Dalai Lama lives another 20 years then Shukden is a vague memory.

Ringo Starr

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Matibadhra and Vajratruth,
1. GKG is unaware or senile or have totally lost control of NKT which is being now being run by people with bad intentions;
If this is the case then you should burn all of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and teachings because the logic is that he is unattained and is unaware of what is going on.

Ringo Starr

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2. GKG is fully aware and behind this undermining of Trichan so that NKT is safe from students defecting to Trichan who offers a more traditional and authentic brand of Tibetan Buddhism;
If this is the case then you should also burn all of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and teachings for they would be worthless. Why? Because Buddha never taught the "me first" attitude.

Ringo Starr

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3. NKT has cut a deal with the Dalai clique and together they now plan to destroy the Gelukpa or Shukden worshipping Geluk sect;
So what you are saying is that the NKT and the Dalai "clique" and all are out to destroy Dorje Shugden? Well, if this is the case then there must be a reason for them to act this way for they well know that it cannot be done. Almost four hundred years ago many high lamas in Tibet did the same - try to destroy Dorje Shugden via very strong fire pujas and they failed.

Ringo Starr

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4. Trichan Chotrul is not the real tulku of Trichan Dorjejang and GKG must speak before the fake tulku gets more powerful;
The main assistant of Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Kungo Palden, was primarily responsible for the search for the new incarnation. He consulted Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, who recognised Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as the unmistaken incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang. Such sentiment was also shared by many other high Gelugpa lineage lamas, including the late Kyabje Lati Rinpoche and His Holiness the 98th Gaden Tripa Jampel Shenpen. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama officially recognised Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as the reincarnation of his predecessor on 23 April 1985.

Ringo Starr

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5. GKG is inflaming the old Geluk-Shukden foundation (Gongsa, Pabonkka, Trichan, Ganchen et al) to take action and group the already fragmented Shukden lamas, because 20 years they did nothing but GKG fought the war himself and took on many sufferings. Later Tsem joined and then Zawa and some others. But the other lamas stood by to see the lineage being ruined.
There might be something to this I agree. To create the causes for bigger things.

Matibhadra

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Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct

Missed shot. Merely pointing out the lack of evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the defamatory letter has hardly anything to do with “loyalty”.

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but his loyalty blinds him to reality.

Maybe you try to read what you comment upon before belching about “reality”.

Zeba Minor

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Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct

Missed shot. Merely pointing out the lack of evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the defamatory letter has hardly anything to do with “loyalty”.

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but his loyalty blinds him to reality.

Maybe you try to read what you comment upon before belching about “reality”.

You didn't disappoint Matibadhra. I have been reading your comments for a while. Basically you nitpick to show you have knowledge which you probably do but you somehow avoid addressing the topic being discussed nor comment in any way that is positive and educational.

Have another go at the options raised Matibadhra and let's see if you're capable of honest and friendly discussion. If you find #1-#5 to be rubbish, let's hear something other than your pent up angst.