Author Topic: Kelsang Rabten responds to Shar Gaden ex-monk speaking on Trijang Rinpoche  (Read 3899 times)

DharmaDefender

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Theres been an interesting development in the recent issue of the International Shugden Buddhist Community (ISBC) claiming that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is the false incarnation of the previous Trijang Dorjechang.

Over a week ago, the ISBC published a letter as a follow-up in their initial one. It basically highlighted the same point as their previous letter:- Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is not the real reincarnation of the previous Trijang Rinpoche. This time, the reasoning given was that the current Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was born before the previous Trijang Rinpoche passed away. This latest letter was based on information published on the Shar Gaden website.

On Facebook, the former secretary of Shar Gaden then attempted to clarify this by stating that when he was in office and publishing information onto the Shar Gaden website, he had got the date wrong and the 1981 year was published in error. It should have been 1982, and he is taking responsibility for this mistake.

His post attracted the attention of Kelsang Rabten, a teacher with the NKT and a prominent member of the previous International Shugden Community (ISC). In his comment, Kelsang Rabten said that Jampa Tharchin lying and that he was making up information to protect the so-called 'false' Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche.

You can see all of the information and exchanges below. Really, Im not on anyones side. Im just posting this here because it concerns two extremely prominent lamas and organisations of our movement and everyone needs to be kept abreast of whats going on with this issue.

DharmaSpace

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I don't know what benefit there is in, to put down a lineage lama.

And one not just recognized one high Lama but a whole slew of High Lamas who have supported Trijang Rinpoche and his organisation and people as well even by the 14th Dalai Lama. So by saying Trijang Rinpoche is fake, they are saying all the lamas and people who gave authenticity to Trijang Rinpoche are not enlightened and not realized.

Just look at all the works these high lamas do for the people and public, there is so much benefit, peace and enlightening influence for so many people, I refuse to believe that the High Lamas who recognized Trijang Rinpoche don't know what they are doing and have made a mistake about Trijang Rinpoche.




Dondrup Shugden

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I do not mean to be rude but who is anyone to question and judge what is right and what is wrong.

Scientifically and methodically there are formulas and equations which can be debated and proven right or wrong.  However spiritually???? I doubt there is any right or wrong or lying.  Isn't the ultimate truth emptiness.

I am grateful that Jampa Tharchin wrote about the error he made and it is up to us to just accept it or if not don't but there is really no necessity to accuse anyone of lying.

My Guru has always taught me never to criticise monastic disciplines as long as we are Buddhists, as it is about the vows and Dharma of Shakymuni Buddha that we hold supreme and anything else is secondary.

DharmaDefender

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So heres another development for everyone to be aware of. Theres been a couple of responses to Kelsang Rabtens comment that Jampa Tharchin is lying. Ones from a Lee VT? And the others from Jampa Tharchin himself.

I wonder what Rabtens next move is going to be and where all of this is going to go. Again, not taking sides but going purely on the basis of logic, Lee has a fair point. This is someones root guru were talking about. In the same way NKT isnt happy when other people accuse Geshe-la of not being a bona fide geshe and real monk, people are going to be upset when others accuse their root guru of not being the real reincarnation. Is this a case of not being able to take the punches they give? Or is it summit else?

kris

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I feel Rabten is being very rude in his respond. He is a monk but the way he speak is is very unmonkly. He doesn't really have to use the word "lying". He may have his information, but others have their information too. Can we imagine if two groups of people keep accusing others are lying? Does this do any good to the situation? It only cause more disagreement and disharmony.

SabS

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I think it was magnanimous of Jampa Tharchin to claim responsibility of his mistake. No doubt this mistake of date had created a reason for this dissent but as practicing Buddhists, we should be forgiving and accept it was a mistake. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche had been recognised by so many highly attained Lamas and protectors under trance. As such why disbelieve all these eminent Lamas and protector and publicly shame one who admitted and apologised for his mistake. In history, there had been known reincarnation while the Lama was still alive or more than one incarnations of the Lama existing. Is it appropriate to criticise the status of an attained Lama or those who officially recognised his incarnation?

I find it surprising that Kelsang Rabten of the International Shugden Buddhist Community (ISBC) being a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism which is heavily dependent on Lama system and Protector practices, would so fiercely blame problems to arise from these. It seems to go in deviant practice. Is this a sign of no blessings from wrong views and criticising holy beings? I sincerely hope that it will not expand into poisoning people's mind towards the good works of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and his holy teachings. Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha. May Dorje Shugden protector the precious Dharma and the pure lineage upholders.

Erstvollzug

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Why is this happening? Why the skirmishes? How come like this? What is the point? If NKT does not feel Trijang Rinpoche is not real, that is fine. Many people feel Buddha himself is not real. But why spew your opinions outside your centre. Let others have freedom to believe. NKT does not own the rights to who is real and not real. Keep your own NKT policies within NKT.

Ringo Starr

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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT's snipe attack on Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, particularly on his authenticity, is a snipe attack on Dorje Shugden as the search for the then new incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was spread-headed by the main assistant of the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kungo Palden who consulted Dorje Shugden.

It is mostly likely also to get or to cause Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and his school to come out from their self-imposed silence on the Dorje Shugden issue, particularly at a time when Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has "come of age".

Over to you Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche...

Rowntree

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Kelsang Rabten's comment comes across very rude and inconsiderate. It must be an NKT thing to blame people for lying whenever they do not agree with the NKT's policies. It is amazing how such a huge & successful Buddhist organisation gives rise to unreasonable and angersome sangha like Kelsang Rabten and he is not the only one behaving like this. The fact is the previous Kyabje Zong Rinpoche oversaw the whole process of recognising the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, while Dorje Shugden through trance recognised the same candidate. Who is Kelsang Rabten to override their decisions? By commenting like this, Kelsang Rabten is reaffirming all negative impressions the Buddhist scene has on them. It is not a wise move at all.

DharmaDefender

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This has just been shared on the Shar Gaden Facebook. How embarrassing for them. They dont have access to their website, who loses control of their own website?? Someone really shouldve vetted their letter before posting it.

Tenzin K

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It’s very scary to see someone can claim other Lama is fake unless they really have the clairvoyant to see but as far I know no other authentic Lama will do so. We don’t criticise other Lama following the Buddhist practice. Trijang Rinpoche was recognised by many lineage Lamas and if he is fake this directly telling that all other lineage lamas that recognised Trijang Rinpoche are wrong too. Then the teaching that passed down from the lineage lamas are wrong too. How severe it is with such claim.

We have our own Guru that we learn, appreciate, gratitude for and I believe no one like their Guru to be put down. We can just work from respecting each other so to their Guru. I see no benefit of pointing anyone Guru is fake or bad but what important is our spiritual practice bear fruits from the Guru we learn from and follow through all the way. Samaya is very important in our spiritual practice. We definitely unable to bear the consequences for one broken their guru samaya just because of what we said or influenced.

Big Uncle

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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.

In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.

For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

DharmaDefender

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The latest development in all of this is a letter published by Geshe Sopa. So hes one of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoches assistants and has been with Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche for 14 years. Hes now based at Trijang Buddhist Institute in Vermont in the States and their website prior to the revamp said that Geshe Sopa teaches and also maintains the physical aspects of the centre itself. So I would conclude hes well placed to comment on the ongoings of TBI, not to mention the Shugden movement itself considering hes been a very active member of the movement for years now. Geshe Sopa was one of the Tibetan monks who was often seen at the frontlines of the now-defunct International Shugden Community protests to ask His Holiness to lift the ban. I wonder whose going to speak up next.

Dondrup Shugden

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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.

In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.

For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

I agree with Big Uncle, we need no more controversies.  CTA and the current leaders of Tibetans in exile are doing enough.

Shugdenpas should remain solid and grounded in our faith of Dorje Shugden and once our collective karma is purified, the propitiation of our Great Protector will spread in 10 directions to benefit and protect many many sentient beings.

ShugdenProtector

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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.

In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.

For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

Big Uncle is right! We, Shugden practitioners really do need this and do not need to create more problems for ourselves, we do not need more disharmony and more disunity. It is horrible hearing these kind of false accusations from NKT/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Kelsang Rabten really sounded very rude and cut throat. It really does not make NKT look good and it actually proves to those against them, that the NKT group are really "not very nice/kind" group of people/sangha. It really makes me lose respect for NKT.

How can NKT say that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is false and why bring it up and blow it up NOW? If it was so true and Geshela was so sure, he would have brought it up and blow it up a long long time ago, perhaps when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche was recognise when he was a child and enthroned?

What he is saying now is that the whole entire Gaden Monastery, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche that was involved is searching for Trijang Rinpoche's incarnation, and even Dorje Shugden himself who recognised and confirmed Trijang Rinpoche's incarnation via the oracle is also wrong? WOW! Everyone is WRONG except Geshe Kelsang who just heard a remark that no one can even back it up. Well if the whole entire great elite attained masters + Dorje Shugden is wrong, then chances are Geshela can be wrong too! Same logic applies and what more is, there are so many more people who are against him, 1 person who thinks what he heard is accurate.

I'm sorry to say this but Geshe Kelsang sounds EXACTLY like HH the Dalai Lama who said all lineage Lamas who believe in Dorje Shugden are wrong. Geshela sounds exactly like Dalai Lama... isn't this so ironic? I am sorry but I don't buy what Geshela say and is doing now and I do not like the way NKT is blowing this out of proportion and creating a split between Shugden community. It is okay if the NKT wish to stand on their own and no longer wish to associate themselves with a lineage of enlightened masters, they may do so, although I don't see a point, any benefit or any blessings from it, but that is their choice. Just don't drag everyone else into the mud with them please! And stop hurting other people with their dramatic false accusations and lies.

Yes we may not know what craziness Geshela is manifesting here as he is no doubt a pure attained master, but whatever his intentions are, I sure hope it can quickly manifest so that we can put a rest to this chaos and disbelief. However, my request is please NKT sangha/teachers and people, behave well, be careful of your speech so it does not create more negative karma by hurting others and falsely accusing Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Geshela may be attained and doing some mahasiddha action here, but you are not, so please watch it and represent your teacher/centre well please. You do not need to be rude at all.