Author Topic: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????  (Read 812 times)

Harold Musetescu

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What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« on: February 17, 2017, 10:46:41 AM »
The title of this article may sound strange to some but in fact it's true.

There are some many different versions of Dorje Shugden and not just one.

You would think that we the followers of Dorje Shugden would have a singular version of him but we don't.

So lets start with the various versions of Dorje Shugden to see which one's you believe in.

One version says that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of "Manjushri".

One version says that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of "Vajrapani".

One version says that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of "Chenriezig".

One version says that Dorje Shugden was "Murdered".

One version says that Dorje Shugden committed "Suicide".

One version says that Dorje Shugden has two Dharmapala's in his retinue.

One version says that Dorje Shugden has three Dharmapala's in his retinue.

One version says that Dorje Shugden is enlightened.

One version says that Dorje Shugden is unenlightened.

One version says that Dorje Shugden is a "Dharmapala".

One version says that Dorje Shugden is a "Yidam".

So many versions of whom Dorje Shugden is.

Can we mix and match the different versions of Dorje Shugden into one?

YES!!!!!!

Please mix and match your version of Dorje Shugden and tell us which version you believe in.

 8)

Matibhadra

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 08:24:21 PM »
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You would think that we the followers of Dorje Shugden would have a singular version of him but we don't.

This means that you a referring to Dorje Shugden as seen by his own devotees; however you mention to

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One version says that Dorje Shugden [probably referring to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen] committed "Suicide".

and to

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One version says that Dorje Shugden is unenlightened.

which, as far as known, are views not actually upheld by any Dorje Shugden devotee...

Harold Musetescu

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 09:29:19 PM »
Hello Matibhadra

Please google "Oracles and Demons of Tibet" and go to the website abhidharma.ru.

This book was written circa 1950 by Rene De Nebesky Wokowitz.

On page 134-135 you will see him recounting the singular story of how Drakpa Gyetsen commited "Suicide".

It states "At last, weary of the incessant intrigues and complots (he) decided to leave the world voluntarily....The Lama suffocated himself by stuffing a ceremonial scarf into his mouth.....".

The author got this story of Dorje Shugden's death from two Gelug Tulkus, Darmpo Rinpoche and Krasmthong Rinpoche. The author does not give any other version of how Dorje Shugden died. No story of him being "Murdered" just that he committed suicide.

Remember this book was written around 1950 long before any problems involving the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.

So Matibhadra we now have two versions of how Drakpa Gyetsen died.

I am fully aware that many people refuse to accept the possibility that Dorje Shugden committed "Suicide". The author was a Professor and scholar from Vienna and had not axe to grind with Dorje Shugden. Tsem Tulku has on numerous occasions quoted from this book.

"Murder" sells better to an audience then "Suicide".

In the matter of Dorje Shugden being "Unenlightened" this is what is believed by the Sakya followers of Dorje Shugden.

Not all followers of Dorje Shugden are Gelugpas. Remember it was was Sakya that first made Dorje Shugden a Dharmapala. He was later co-opted into the Gelugpa Sect.

How my answers have help you.


Big Uncle

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 10:59:05 PM »
I wouldn't refer to Oracles and Demons of Tibet because their information is not the most accurate. In the chapter on 'rdo rje shugs lden' - Dorje Shugden, the book referred to 'bsod nams grags pa' - Sonam Drakpa as the incarnation that passed away and assume the form of Dorje Shugden. They even got the wrong incarnation and much of the information was probably misinterpreted or perhaps, lost in translation.

Anyway, with regards to how Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen passed away, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote that he was murdered. That's all we need to know. Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen being such a High Lama, probably knew that it was coming and allowed things to come to pass but he certainly did not commit suicide.

Furthermore, Dorje Shugden is viewed as Manjushri in the Gelug tradition by all the high lamas from Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. That's all we need to know. The many forms of Dorje Shugden is not unusual because he may take on different aspects to different lineage masters due to the karma of the time and practitioners of that time.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2017, 12:07:20 AM »
Hello Big Uncle

So was Tsem Tulku wrong to quote from this book about Dorje Shugden.

It was also in this book that we find the reference to Methar the Dharmapala.

It was based on that statement that Tsem Tulku told the world about Methar.

It was based on this book that the mind stream of the Tengyeling Oracle opened about Methar.

Are the Sakya wrong about their view about Dorje Shugden ?

Were the monks of Sera Monastery going all the way back to the late 1790's wrong in believing that Dorje Shugden was Vajrapani?

This is a problem that we must face. The fact of so many different views about Dorje Shugden.

You have no PROOF of your CLAIM the author go it wrong about Dorje Shugden. Maybe Drakpa Gyelsen  was also know by that name in the late 1940's. This was a in depth study of Dorje Shugden. The first by an western scholar that is still used as a source in 2017.

This book is over 700 pages listing hundreds of Dharmapalas and YOU say they all got it wrong.

Did these two Gelupa tulku's that helped the author about Dorje Shugden get is wrong.

This book has stood the tests for about 67 years and has be quoted from by numerous Tibet scholars and authors for decades. Are they all now wrong and you right?

Sorry Big Uncle but I go with the author, the two Gelugpa Tulkus and the countless scholars who deem the author a great Tibetan scholar.


Matibhadra

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 12:59:51 AM »
Dear Harold, I see that our previous discussion on the topic did not help you enough, as you keep saying that

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Please google "Oracles and Demons of Tibet" and go to the website abhidharma.ru

Research is not only to “google” something, but also to think precisely on what has been googled, your failure to do so being what makes you so obstinately attached to your own misrepresentation of well established facts.

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This book was written circa 1950 by Rene De Nebesky Wokowitz.

Which is not a reason to misrepresent what is stated and to assert what is not stated in the book, which precisely is what you do.

Indeed, as opposed to your claims, the author has never said that his informants were devotees of Dorje Shugden, and the author has never denied the existence of other possible versions.

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On page 134-135 you will see him recounting the singular story of how Drakpa Gyetsen commited "Suicide".

This is the merely the “singular story” the author heard from barely two informants, of unknown affiliation as far as Dorje Shugden is concerned, and nowhere the author states that theirs is the only findable story.

This story is his two informants' story, just this, and just this is what the author says.

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The author got this story of Dorje Shugden's death

The author never got a story of “Dorje Shugden's death”, but merely a story of Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation's death.

May I refresh your memory to remember that before Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation death Dorje Shugden did not yet exist, as the latter is supposed to be the aspect taken by the former after his death.

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from two Gelug Tulkus, Darmpo Rinpoche and Krasmthong Rinpoche. The author does not give any other version of how Dorje Shugden died.

Since the author had barely two informants on this topic, and since these mere two informants were nowhere stated to be Dorje Shugden devotees, their version of the death of Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation (not of “Dorje Shugden”, may I insist) cannot by any means be stated to represent the story traditionally told by Dorje Shugden devotees, which is the sole topic herein discussed.

Maybe you naively think that all Gelugpas were Dorje Shugden devotees at the author's time, or that all Gelugpas were Dorje Shugden devotees until the current witch-hunt perpetrated by the current evil criminal the 14th dalie lame, but this is not and has never been the case since the time of the bloodthirsty criminal the evil “5th” dalie lame.

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No story of him being "Murdered" just that he committed suicide.

No story of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's being murdered, but only in your extremely limited source, which you like an evangelical fanatic take as the bible apart from which nothing exists.

Besides, even this source does not say that its own source, the two Gelugpa lamas, were devotees of Dorje Shugden.

Please note that there is an old tradition within Drepung of repudiating Dorje Shugden, and therefore the murdering of his previous incarnation, starting with the evil “5th” dalie himself.

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Remember this book was written around 1950 long before any problems involving the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.

You obviously ignore the basic fact that “problems involving the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden” are traced back to the murderous “5th” dalie lame.

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So Matibhadra we now have two versions of how Drakpa Gyetsen died.

And, except for your misreading, zero version that Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen suicided recounted by someone asserted, let alone verified, to be a devotee of Dorje Shugden.

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I am fully aware that many people refuse to accept the possibility that Dorje Shugden committed "Suicide".

Did Dorje Shugden die? This would be sad news indeed, if I didn't knew that the source (you) is so unreliable!

Now, since even according to you many people would refuse to the “suicide” version, how comes that the “suicide” version was from the very start the only existent one?

Your denial of the murdering version is therefore ilogical and infantile.

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The author was a Professor and scholar from Vienna and had not axe to grind with Dorje Shugden.

Which is great, and distinguishes him from many Soros-sponsored prostituted academics abounding in Western universities nowadays.

However, you failed to remark 1) that such scholar has never mentioned that his barely two informants were Dorje Shugden devotees, and 2) that such scholar has never stated that after consulting with other informants, including devotees of Dorje Shugden, he found that the suicide version is the only existing version.

Besides, the scholar's methodology is grossly defective, as he did not even try to verify the affiliation of his informants.

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Tsem Tulku has on numerous occasions quoted from this book.

Despite its obvious shortcomings, the book is still valuable; what is not valuable is the way you misrepresent what the author says, and fail to remark what the author did not say.

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"Murder" sells better to an audience then "Suicide".

Which, according to your ridiculous logic, proves that every single murdering in History has been a suicide, right?

For instance, half million people suicided in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when they saw US planes overflying them with gifts, and then the atomic bomb story was invented because it sells better; Julius Caesar suicided with a knife when he saw Brutus approaching him with a flower, but the the murdering story was invented because it sells better; and what not?

Your incompetence as a reader is only supplanted by your childishness as a thinker.

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In the matter of Dorje Shugden being "Unenlightened" this is what is believed by the Sakya followers of Dorje Shugden.

Wrong, because many Sakyapas traditionally believed Dorje Shugden to be an enlightened being, whereas those who, just like the evil dalie, believe Dorje Shugden to be unenlightened cannot be actually counted as his devotees.

And since what matters in the current discussion is how Dorje Shugden is seen by his devotees and not by others, the thoughtlessness of your argument is well established.

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Not all followers of Dorje Shugden are Gelugpas.

Not all Gelugpas, or so-called Gelugpas, see Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being, and not all non-Gelugpas see Dorje Shugden as an unenlightened being, as exemplified by the many Sakyapas seeing Dorje Shugden as a supramundane protector.

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Remember it was was Sakya that first made Dorje Shugden a Dharmapala. He was later co-opted into the Gelugpa Sect.

Right. And what does it have to do with the currently discussed topic?

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How my answers have help you.

They helped showing that our previous conversation did not help you.

Anyway, if you want a modern, thorough, impartial, reliable Western academic work showing how the murdering story is as old as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's death, and how actually this murdering was likely perpetrated by a Bhutanese Nyingma assassin on the orders of the evil “5th” dalie lame, all on the basis of available historic sources, please google for Lindsay G. McCune's Tales Of Intrigue From Tibet's Holy City: The Historical Underpinnings of a Modern Buddhist Crisis.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2017, 01:18:34 AM »
Hello Mati

You can quote from your book and I only offered another book as a point of discussion.

I'm sorry if i touched some deep seated nerve of perfection like Lisa Simpson possesses.

I pale by comparison to.

I am not the author of this book nor do I wish to justify his findings. I am Harold and not Rene.

Bye the Bye I claim no scholarly background but you seem to have insights that I will never have.

A burden I will never have.

Thanks for your insights i'll take them for what there worth.

Bye the bye again you seem to know what the author did and with whom pray tell how did you come by them Dr. Mati (PhD?)?


Harold Musetescu

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2017, 02:05:42 AM »
Well its time for the Tengyeling Oracle to take a small vacation.

Yes Harold Musetescu is the Tengyeling Oracle.

Yes Mati you may think you and others know more than me and you may all possess far greater book smarts then this old man.

But I did find Methar long after your world had forgotten him.

When I read about Methar in "Oracles and Demons" it opened by santana.

I fought to bring Methar and the true story of Demo Tulku, Nyari Tulku, Kache Marpo, Methar, Tengyeling Monastery and the previous Tengyeling Oracle back to this world.

With the help of Tsem Tulku, I the Tengyeling Oracle succeeded. Thank you Tsem Tulku for playing your part is this cosmic drama.

I gave the world the "Peaceful and Wrathful" mantras of Methar.

I gave the world his "Wrathful" visualization.

I gave the world Methar's mala of skulls.

I, the Tengyeling Oracle was chosen by Methar,Demo Tulku, Nyari Tulku and the Tengyeling Oracle to first tell their stories.

They did not chose the Panglung Oracle or the Gameng Oracle to tell the world but instead this old man.

So make fun of me all you want but I can die happy with this part that I have played.

Do any of you "Channel" a Dharmapala?

I think not.

It is a most interesting and wonderful experience.

 8) 8) 8)

 

Matibhadra

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2017, 03:01:54 AM »
Hi Harold/Tengyeling Oracle,

Here's a direct link to download Lindsay G. McCune's Tales Of Intrigue From Tibet's Holy City: The Historical Underpinnings of a Modern Buddhist Crisis:

https://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjVm-nnl6DSAhVEthoKHfEVBbEQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiginole.lib.fsu.edu%2Fislandora%2Fobject%2Ffsu%3A180862%2Fdatastream%2FPDF%2Fdownload%2Fcitation.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEf53rB7qzTJaJ9ledjeYgDg_cc3A

Please download it and give it a chance to enjoy the many details added by this neutral, scholarly, remarkable research, which will surely enrich any discusssion on the topic of Tulku Drakpa Gyalsten's violent death.

Matibhadra

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2017, 03:12:31 AM »
By the way, you as the Tengyeling Oracle are in a privileged position to tell the rest of us whether Methar was actually murdered, or in fact just suicided, and therefore the murdering story was concocted just because, as you like to say, “murder sells better to an audience than suicide”.

thaimonk

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 04:23:00 AM »
Harold,

Why do you always attack and degrade Tsem Tulku?

He is the only Tulku of the Gelug lineage with such a comprehensive blog that shares so much information. He benefits so many because of this and so much hard work seems to go into this. Especially information on Dorje Shugden that has benefited myself and many others.

No other Tulku of the Gelug lineage provide so much online for free and easy access. So why do you always attack Tsem Tulku?

 :(

Hello Matibhadra

Please google "Oracles and Demons of Tibet" and go to the website abhidharma.ru.

This book was written circa 1950 by Rene De Nebesky Wokowitz.

On page 134-135 you will see him recounting the singular story of how Drakpa Gyetsen commited "Suicide".

It states "At last, weary of the incessant intrigues and complots (he) decided to leave the world voluntarily....The Lama suffocated himself by stuffing a ceremonial scarf into his mouth.....".

The author got this story of Dorje Shugden's death from two Gelug Tulkus, Darmpo Rinpoche and Krasmthong Rinpoche. The author does not give any other version of how Dorje Shugden died. No story of him being "Murdered" just that he committed suicide.

Remember this book was written around 1950 long before any problems involving the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.

So Matibhadra we now have two versions of how Drakpa Gyetsen died.

I am fully aware that many people refuse to accept the possibility that Dorje Shugden committed "Suicide". The author was a Professor and scholar from Vienna and had not axe to grind with Dorje Shugden. Tsem Tulku has on numerous occasions quoted from this book.

"Murder" sells better to an audience then "Suicide".

In the matter of Dorje Shugden being "Unenlightened" this is what is believed by the Sakya followers of Dorje Shugden.

Not all followers of Dorje Shugden are Gelugpas. Remember it was was Sakya that first made Dorje Shugden a Dharmapala. He was later co-opted into the Gelugpa Sect.

How my answers have help you.

Erstvollzug

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 03:49:27 AM »
I wish to make an announcement. I am the new Gadong oracle. No more hiding. The protector speaks through me.

I am the genuine and undisputed oracle of this deity.


ShugdenProtector

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 09:28:08 PM »
I wish to make an announcement. I am the new Gadong oracle. No more hiding. The protector speaks through me.

I am the genuine and undisputed oracle of this deity.

Is this for real or just sarcasm???

I didn't know it was raining oracles or is it demons. Seem like anyone can just come out and claim they are so and so. Bravo you came out of the closet but what kind of oracles do that?

I do not believe in oracles unless they are actually legit which must be acknowledge by the Guru who made the oracle, with their seal of recognition or Dorje Shugden's seal of recognition through the Panglung Kuten, otherwise you guys are just her for your own agendas. Sorry I'm a skeptic, that is why I like the Gelugpa system of logic and authenticity. So if you say you are this and that, then prove it, get the papers, acknowledgement and seals... but the thing is, if you need to make such a huge effort to do so, then it is already a bit funny. No offense to anyone, just find this quite unbelievably hilarious.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 11:40:16 PM »
I have asked His Eminence Tsem Tulku to see the Panglung Kuten about me and what I have stated.

I have written it on his website  on this site and in emails to ask the Panglung Kuten to go into trance.

While in trance Kache Marpo or Methar can state if what I am saying is the truth or a LIE!!!

I also asked him to set up a similar meeting with the Gameng Kuten who lives 8 hours from me.

The Gameng Kuten can also go into trance and tell the WORLD IF I LIE!!!

So I am willing to be publicly tested and for the world to know the truth about this old man and what he says.

I am will to be tested and to be publicly vindicated or humiliated.

Erstvollzug

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Re: What version of Dorje Shugden do you believe in?????
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 12:26:19 AM »

I have asked His Eminence Tsem Tulku to see the Panglung Kuten about me and what I have stated. Shinjachen is taking trance of me. Shinjachen wishes to speak through me. I am, I am, I am the new Gadong oracle.

I have written it on his website on this site and in emails to ask the Panglung Kuten to go into trance. Tsem Rinpoche should spend all the money, effort and time and resources to CONFIRM I AM THE NEW GADONG. All I need to give him back is an email that I am real: RealDharmafrauds@gmail.com . With this email it is MORE THAN ENOUGH PROOF I AM REAL. Everything should be done for me based on the fact I gave my email!!!!!

While in trance Kache Marpo or Methar can state if what I am saying is the truth or a LIE!!! He must ask Kache Marpo that I am real!

I also asked him to set up a similar meeting with the Gameng Kuten who lives 8 hours from me. He should set up a similar meeting with Gameng. He should spend, money, time, energy, effort and all expenses to PROVE TO THE WORLD I AM THE NEW GADONG. Tsem Rinpoche should do this as I demand it. I don't have to do anything because I am Gadong.

The Gameng Kuten can also go into trance and tell the WORLD IF I LIE!!! I've never met Tsem Rinpoche nor am I his friend, student, sponsor, colleague in anyway, but he must spend all energy and money to do all this for me to prove to you all I am real! He has to do it because I demand it.

So I am willing to be publicly tested and for the world to know the truth about this new man and what he says.

I am will to be tested and to be publicly vindicated or humiliated.

I am Gadong oracle. I am the new one!!! Shinjachen wishes to speak to the world through this!



I have asked His Eminence Tsem Tulku to see the Panglung Kuten about me and what I have stated.

I have written it on his website  on this site and in emails to ask the Panglung Kuten to go into trance.

While in trance Kache Marpo or Methar can state if what I am saying is the truth or a LIE!!!

I also asked him to set up a similar meeting with the Gameng Kuten who lives 8 hours from me.

The Gameng Kuten can also go into trance and tell the WORLD IF I LIE!!!

So I am willing to be publicly tested and for the world to know the truth about this old man and what he says.

I am will to be tested and to be publicly vindicated or humiliated.