Author Topic: Book Review: A Great Deception  (Read 8183 times)

emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 02:56:17 PM »
Thanks for your review, emptymountains.  I was surprised at the strength of conviction behind your words because previously you've said that you aren't a great fan of the published materials from the Western Shugden Society.

emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 11:03:20 PM »
Unlike the pamphlet (and even then, only because of a sentence here or there), I can stand behind the language and tone of the book 100%.

Also, while the fact that Dragpa Gyaltsen was a candidate for being chosen as the Fifth Dalai Lama was not new to me, to see Shugden Lamas actually saying this was the case was an eye-opener. (Newsflash: Dorje Shugden is the real Dalai Lama!) It really helps my mind to let go of Tenzin Gyatso as the "Dalai Lama" since it has indeed been quite impossible for me to reconcile the two all this time.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 11:26:12 PM by emptymountains »

a friend

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 12:16:05 AM »
Dear Emptymountains,

I was perusing your website and I liked it very much, particularly the excellent part about Je Pabongka Dechen Ñingpo only being opposed to the wrong view that had infiltrated some of the other schools, never opposed to the schools per se. Very useful to state that, to counter so many calumnies against such holy being.

About this present message, of course I hear you, I understand what you are saying, but please, could we leave our holy Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen out of the "Dalai Lama" thing? It wouldn't be surprising that he was the true incarnation of Je Tsongkapa´s disciple, the saintly Gendundrup, and the three following ones, but "Dalai Lama" is a political title that those holy Lamas never knew in their lifetimes and it would be somehow displaced to have such exclusively Dharma person as Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen associated with it. Don't you think?

emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 01:40:38 AM »
Dear friend,

Are you saying that the 3rd and 4th reincarnations did not have that title?

a friend

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 10:23:13 PM »
Dear Emptymountains,
As far as I know, no. The first person with the title DL was the so called 5th, and they imputed the same title to a line of reincarnations going back to Venerable Gendundrup, who was one of Je Tsongkapa's disciples. None of those holy beings --the first, second, third and forth-- had anything to do with the title DL during their lifetimes.

After I wrote the previous message, I thought that I should've said also the following. I don't think it would've been incorrect to say that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a reincarnation of Ven. Gendundrup, because all of those holy disciples are like emanations of their Teacher insofar as they've gotten all his attainments. But let's not forget that primarily Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is the reincarnation of Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, another of Je Tsongkapa's disciples, the one to whom for the first time the great Protector of Tibet requested to become a special Protector for the Ganden teachings. This question was going to be asked two more times that I know of, one to Panchen Sonam Drakpa, and finally, just before the time came for him to arise as our Protector, to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

If there are errors in this information, they come exclusively from me.

emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 10:53:57 PM »
Quote
It was Sonam Gyatso who visited Mongolia and so impressed the ruler, Altan Khan, that both he and his subjects were converted to Buddhism. The Khan gave him the title ‘Dalai Lama’, which in Mongolian means ‘Ocean Lama’. Although he was the first to be so called, he became known as the third Dalai Lama, his two previous incarnations, Je Gendundrub and Je Gendun Gyatso, acquiring posthumously the titles of first and second Dalai Lama. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Heart Jewel, p. 110)

a friend

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 12:12:29 AM »
Here you have me corrected! Thank you for destroying a false memory.

All the rest stets.
First, quite subjectively I must say, because this title DL became the designation for the mixing of politics and religion I would prefer to leave aside our Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen when referring to it.
And more objectively, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is in the reincarnation lineage of the great masters I mentioned, Je Tsongkapa´s disciple Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, and Panchen Sonam Drakpa, the two Lamas previous to him that were asked "to protect".


emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 01:05:59 AM »
Yes, I agree. Besides, even the current DL says that the word "Dalai" was simply a Mongolian translation of "Gyatso" (Tib. ocean). Not so much a title in the first place: "the Gyatso Lama"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 09:20:31 AM by emptymountains »

a friend

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 05:48:41 AM »
Dear Emptymountains,

I read in your website the article about De-Silencing, excellent. But looking for more reading from Bell, I only found out that he had passed away some days ago. I wasn't able to verify if this is the same person you are mentioning or not. I wish the recently departed to have a great reincarnation, a noble human rebirth.
Beyond that, could you confirm that they are -or not- the same person, and in any case, could you please publish that thesis in its entirety or direct us to a place where it is published? Thank you very much.




emptymountains

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Re: Book Review: A Great Deception
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 09:19:52 AM »
I got permission from Chris Bell to share his papers with others.

I sent you a PM, and anyone who wants a copy can do the same.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 01:26:32 PM by emptymountains »