Author Topic: The divorce from the Shugden monks  (Read 1954 times)

WisdomBeing

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The divorce from the Shugden monks
« on: November 07, 2014, 06:51:50 AM »
Just a few of my comments below. By the way I am NOT from NKT.

1. "s segregation necessarily a crime?* If you you cannot cope with another person or group you just separate."

Separation may be fine as an institution, but to separate in the sense of socially becomes an apartheid. Is the author championing apartheid?  Is the author saying it is perfectly fine to discriminate against a section of society to the extent of not allowing them access to schools, medical treatment to travel documents, to grocery shops to buy basic necessities? Are we going to be like how South Africa used to be - with separate toilets for Shugdenpas and non-Shugdenpas? Separate buses? Schools? Because we Buddhists who are supposed to be THE most tolerant religion simply cannot bear to be in the same social space as someone who believes in a practice that is different from ours? Non-Shugdenpas who are Muslims or Christians or Satanists can have medical treatment from Tibetan clinics, yet Shugdenpas cannot. And this is perfectly acceptable to the author?

2. "some critics from other schools said he did it too late(!)"

Is this not schismatic?

That other schools of Buddhism can comment on Gelugpa? Since when should anyone from one school comment on the practices of another? Is the Dalai Lama so weak that he would listen to what someone from another school says about his own? What did the Ganden Tripa say about this at the time of the Dalai Lama's condemnation of Dorje Shugden? Why do we never hear about that? After all, the Ganden Tripa is the head of the Gelug school and NOT the Dalai Lama!

3. "There is some evidence that Tibetans and Chinese protesters have strong relations to China, pictures who show them with Chinese officials."

What evidence is there? I do not see NKT snuggling up to the Chinese authorities? I do see some Dorje Shugden lamas who are working with the Chinese. Guess what? Tibet IS part of China now and if anyone would like to help Tibetans, you had better be on good terms with the Chinese government. Where is the CTA? The CTA should be trying to work with the Chinese so that they can help the Tibetan! I don't see any Shugden lamas protesting against the Dalai Lama? The purported villains like HE Gangchen Rinpoche, who is always vilified by the Tibetans for being a Dorje Shugden lama who is close to the Chinese, has never been at the protests or even been vocal against the Dalai Lama, so please do substantiate your allegations before stating them.

4. " It goes against your core values. You can try to explain, convince, tolerate even but you come to the point when this is not acceptable any more."

And what is this that goes against the core values of Buddhism? I've never heard it satisfactorily explained what is so bad about Shugden worship? What is so unacceptable?

5. "We no longer have to care or take notice, we are not in a couple any more, right?"

We no longer care? You - who are said to be sangha and thus of one family no longer care? I thought one of the Buddhist tenets was that you had to treat everyone equally and to love everyone the same... be it your enemy or your friend. Yet here, you do not care anymore because they do a practice you don't agree with (for reasons which are non-existent - see note 4)

6. "Slander, start rumours, blackmail, you name it. It reflects badly on the other party so why not."

Such as? What slander is there? Rumours? What i have read so far seems to hold truth. If there is anything that doesn't hold water, then please provide the alternative viewpoint. It is simple enough to protest against any slander. And if it's public or written slander, then sue them! After all, NKT are based in the west which as we all know is a pretty litigious society, so sue them! Unless you have no basis to sue?

7. "it was very tense they in first few months after the split given the history of brutal act of some Shugdenpa’s from Delhi,"

This old chestnut again? Firstly, there was never any proof that this was done by Shugdenpas. Secondly and actually the more importantly, even if it was performed by Shugdenpas, it doesn't mean that all Shugdenpas are bad. e.g. for every crime committed by a Christian or Muslim, does it mean that all followers of that particular religion are murderers? Of course not.

8. "Tibetan are not always peaceful, they are humans too and religious sentiments run very high, specially against the Dalai Lama. "

Fine. The Dalai Lama knows full well what the emotions of Tibetans are like, but he is the one instigating the Tibetans to react against Dorje Shugden practitioners and this i find very difficult to understand. All the Dalai Lama needs to do to clear things up is to say: I do not practice Dorje Shugden as I find it not beneficial but as Buddhists, we should not discriminate, be nasty or be violent to those who do not follow the same practices. The End.



The divorce from the Shugden monks: Is segregation “the Dalai Lama’s discrimination against Shugdens”?

http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/11/07/is-segregation-the-dalai-lamas-discrimination-against-shugdens-the-divorce-from-the-shugden-monks/

NOVEMBER 7, 2014 BY TENPEL

I always wondered – besides all their other false accusations, propaganda. untruths and spin of the facts – why the New Kadampa Tradition via their front groups WSS & ISC make such a big fuss about “segregation”. Is segregation necessarily a crime?* If you you cannot cope with another person or group you just separate. This is something very common in the world and experienced by many, for instance by those who go through a divorce. But would a divorced man or woman run a campaign against their former partner accusing him or her that the separation or clean cut of such a divorce is “discrimination”? How stupid! A divorce can become dirty but a divorce can be also very healthy for both sides, far better than staying together.

In the context of NKT/ISC it is even more breathtaking how they involved themselves in a divorce without having ever been a part of that divorce themselves. The Western protesters live in a total different Western world. Tenzin Dorjee wrote that “the protesters are overwhelmingly white American and European men masquerading as Tibetan monks and victims”. These protesters have no ties to the monks in India nor have they ever sought to have any relationship to Tibetan monks, nuns and masters. They just abuse a situation abroad – far away in India at places they’ve never visited or seen; places they even have never intended to visit – to attack the character of the Dalai Lama based on a totally self-referential internal propaganda network and the order of their Guru, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso: “I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly. I requested Kelsang Pema and Kelsang Thubchen to do this job for me and they have accepted.”

Reflecting the situation in India in the Gelug monasteries – where a majority decided to separate from Shugden monks after times of unrest, disharmony, and turmoil – it always came to my mind ‘it is just similar to a divorce, no big deal’.

The NKT/ISC wrongly attribute these times of unrest and trouble in India before the voting to the Dalai Lama but the Dalai Lama only put his finger into this bursting abscess – and some critics from other schools said he did it too late(!). Moreover, the Dalai Lama suggested a democratic majority vote according to the Vinaya (Buddha’s rules for monastics), therefore it is again plain wrong to make the Dalai Lama the culprit of one’s own confusion as the NKT/ISC protesters do it. (What drives the few Tibetans who join the protests I cannot say; but for me it is hard to have sympathy with so much confusion and aggression as the protesters demonstrate. There is some evidence that Tibetans and Chinese protesters have strong relations to China, pictures who show them with Chinese officials.)
So what I want to say and share, the NKT/ISC cosmos wants to make the world believe that reasonable separation = segregation = discrimination. You can read here how hysterically they ride on this misconception: “6 awkward truths for those who deny the Dalai Lama’s discrimination against Shugdens“.

Some minutes ago I was made aware by Carol McQuire about an eye witness account of the separation of the monks in Sera Mey (South India), that she posted on Facebook. I quote it here. The eye witness account does not only share my thoughts and reasons it gives you further information about the separation which you can rarely read online because most of the Tibetans in those monasteries don’t communicate this with Westerners. (Thanks to both, the monk from Sera and Carol. Big hug!)

I see this whole issue like a divorce situation with a twist …

You are in couple. After thorough thoughts and reflections, you come to the conclusion that something is wrong in the relationship, something you can’t accept. It goes against your core values. You can try to explain, convince, tolerate even but you come to the point when this is not acceptable any more. You must separate. Then comes the divorce.

You divide your common properties, some couples doing better than others and each goes his own way, to start anew. You don’t have any contacts any more and that is fine. You may meet in the street, say hello and that’s about it. Yes, in the past, you shared a bed, food, prayers, a house but it’s all over now. This divorce was not forced upon us, we chose to do that. We could of stayed but preferred not to. Irreconcilable differences …

In Sera Mey, the Pomra monks who did not follow Shugden left everything, taking nothing. We left them the houses, the furnitures, the sponsors, pretty much all there was, just like it may happen in a couple. We started a new Khamtsen, Phobor, from scratch. The other party kept on going with what they had and are flourishing as a separate monastery, Serpom. That’s fine, they can do that. We no longer have to care or take notice, we are not in a couple any more, right? You wanted to do this practice, fine, but not in my house, not for a long as we were are together. Didn’t work out so we went away, left everything and got a divorce… It takes time for things to settle down, both sides have it rough but eventually, you work it out. Simple, no? This is the situation in the great Gelug monasteries in India and Nepal.

But, sometimes, your ex-spouses’ siblings will get upset about the divorce (in this case, the NKT). They are not married to you in the first place, they claim to be new Kadam, not Gelug so “outsides of the marriage”, so to say and they do not accept the authority of the Dalai Lama. Why should they be involved? They may be upset as their relatives (non NKT Shudgens) are having a hard time. After all, they are going through a divorce (well, so are we but it doesn’t matter…). Because of attachment to their relatives stance, they take sides. They want the best for the family so they are ready to do anything. Slander, start rumours, blackmail, you name it. It reflects badly on the other party so why not. And it leads up to the current situation. Add other elements like former grudges and so forth and you got a pretty bad mix.

In India, we live on the same refugee settlement as the Shugden camp, the bulk of them live literally across the street from the main Sera Mey temple. And it is peaceful. They don’t protest, judge or anything. Their has been no fights, battles, insults. Sure, it was very tense they in first few months after the split given the history of brutal act of some Shugdenpa’s from Delhi, threats from the police to close the monastery like what has happened with the Karmapa temple in Sikkim, riot gear, baton armed police refusing us permission the access the Sera Lachi (combined Sera Jey/Mey prayer hall) to conduct the Sojong ceremony unless we allowed the Shugden group also. We NEEDED to be segregate to keep the peace. Tibetan are not always peaceful, they are humans too and religious sentiments run very high, specially against the Dalai Lama. Tension was there at the time but 6 years later, the dust has settled, just like in a divorce. We went our way, they went theirs.

I just don’t understand what is happening in the West. What is the NKT trying to achieve? According to them, they should stick to their practice taught by Kalsang Gyatso and not meddle with other traditions, no? So why try to involve the great monasteries in South India in this issue? The divorce is finalized, both parties moved on, get over it! Keep on doing what you are doing and kindly leave us alone… I was not married to you in the first place…! :o)

* My OSX Mac English Thesaurus states about segregation:
segregation
noun
they recommend the full segregation of vehicles and pedestrians in the town centre:
separation, setting apart, keeping apart, sorting out; isolation, quarantine, insulation, exclusion, closeting, protection, shielding, partitioning; division, detachment, disconnection, dissociation; sequestration, partition; in S. Africa, historical apartheid. ANTONYMS integration.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

christine V

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Re: The divorce from the Shugden monks
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 06:32:22 AM »
WisdomBeing you are absolutely speaking out my thoughts on Tenpel's article.

TO add on:
What kind of divorce are you talking about Tenpel. The facts that you are saying here clearly state that you can't even understand the basic of Buddhism, which the Protector are part of the lineage not a seperate one . 

NKT is not doing something to meddling the other religion. Please read this letter if you dont even know why the demostration started, please read: http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden06.php , Geshe Kelsang's open letter to Dalai Lama.

Don't stay ignorant Tenpel

Kim Hyun Jae

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Re: The divorce from the Shugden monks
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 07:01:44 AM »
@Tenpel There is a cure for Ignorance. Study the Lamrim, contemplate, meditate and go for Refuge in a guru before you start commenting such thing as "divorce".

 

Ringo Starr

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Re: The divorce from the Shugden monks
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 04:43:33 AM »
A divorce involves two individuals who decide to break a contract, a contract of marriage. You go your separate ways and you no longer own any assets together. Both parties have the same rights.

In the case of the Gelugpas, one group who still call themselves Gelugpas essentially kicked another group out of "their" monasteries.

What right is it theirs to claim ownership to "their" monasteries? What right is it theirs to ban a practice? What right is it theirs to call themselves Gelugpas? What right is theirs to tell their own high lamas to leave?

So who are the Gelugpas now? The ones who stayed and stopped practicing or the ones who left and continued practicing, or both, or none?

Manjushri and Tsongkhapa would certainly have to do something about this situation.




DharmaSpace

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Re: The divorce from the Shugden monks
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 05:18:23 PM »
I do think Tenphel does not understand spiritual practice. When certain decree or instructions causes a practitioners to abandon his or her guru that is samaya being broken . Without samaya great beings like Milarepa, Naropa would not have reached their fullest potential.

It is schism to separate the spiritual community and the lay community, big time schism which results in a rebirth in Avici. This divorce which unnecessary did not need to happen at all and has brought no benefit to the Dalai Lama/CTA and also to the Dorje Sugden people. This is a critical time whereby Tibetans should unite but yet thy find themselves at odds, brother against brother.

lotus1

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Re: The divorce from the Shugden monks
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2014, 11:39:36 AM »
Quote
In Sera Mey, the Pomra monks who did not follow Shugden left everything, taking nothing. We left them the houses, the furnitures, the sponsors, pretty much all there was, just like it may happen in a couple. We started a new Khamtsen, Phobor, from scratch. The other party kept on going with what they had and are flourishing as a separate monastery, Serpom. That’s fine, they can do that. We no longer have to care or take notice, we are not in a couple any more, right? You wanted to do this practice, fine, but not in my house, not for a long as we were are together. Didn’t work out so we went away, left everything and got a divorce… It takes time for things to settle down, both sides have it rough but eventually, you work it out. Simple, no? This is the situation in the great Gelug monasteries in India and Nepal.


I wonder who is saying the truth? A divorce only and no discrimination?
Can they explain what is this vandalism at Serpom Monastery? ( )

After the Serpom monks were expelled from Sera Mey, why did the administration of Sera Mey prohibit all Serpom monks from using the sole water pump and the only source of clean water in the area? More stories about the Serpom monastery here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/serpom-monastery-almost-three-years-later/

Why I still see my Tibetan Shugdenpa friends are not allowed to meet with their family and prohibited from going into certain shops and hospital???!!!