Panel Discussion Organised by SOAS and London-Ney - 15th August 2014

[Blueupali]

I am happy like mentioned before in comments elsewhere regarding this but I feel that the Dorje Shugden side is under-represented. NKT is a huge organisation but they do not represent all of Shugden practitioners. There are many lamas out there along with their students that can be roped in to speak on this subject matter. Inclusion of other lamas and centres would make the Shugden side more rounded and it would be fair for them. Nonetheless, this is the first discussion/dialogue of its kind and I do hope this would encourage and spur more of other such discussions in the future.

What is your concern about representation? Don't you think that the ISC can represent the concerns of all Shugden practitioners? If not, why not?

Well I don't think the ISC can be said to represent all Shugden practitioners, because different Shugden practitioners have different perspectives, first of all.  Second, anyone can join the NKT because everyone is welcome.  It is a Shugden organization but not everyone who is in the NKT and saying that they do Shugden isn't really checking things out from the Dalai Lama's school, okay. 
   Then they join the ISC, and talk, often missing important points, though Rabten seemed to do a good job.
   Also, some other Shugden people who are acting like they don't do Shugden (so they don't get killed) can't really join the ISC.  However, they may have people with the same teacher who are openly doing Shugden, who could talk at a panel.  It's a bad idea to think one group represents everybody.  Have you noticed anyway to email the ISC on their website?  Not everybody is upfront about what they are doing.
 

[icy]

There is a complete and better version of YouTube uploaded by London TibetanPublications on the panel disucssion on Shugden controversy.  I believe this is the latest and final also the best of all the links in terms of quality in clarity and sound:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba-pdha1noE#t=782

[vajrastorm]

It's good that a panel like this has been set up to present different views on the Dorje Shugden Controversy. A few points were raised,especially by Geshe Tashi Tsering, which needs to be examined.

Point 1. "Dorje Shugden has never been a Gelug practice; and DS was not  a part of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings".

But the origin of Shugden shows that he could not have arisen then. He arose afterwards to protect the teachings. So he couldn't have been there from the time the Gelug lineage was established. But then there was Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was of the same mind as Je Tsongkhapa.

Also , some Gaden Tripas did practice Shugden or did so openly upon retiring from their posts.

Point 2. "Dorje Shugden was the one who stirred up controversies".

Not correct. The controversy over Shugden practice started when the Dalai Lama issued an order to ban the practice of Shugden because Nechung in oracle said Shugden was a spirit and practicing him would shorten the Dalai Lama's life and jeopardize the cause of Tibet"s independence from China.

Shugden practice has not hurt the Dalai Lama's wellbeing. Neither has it done anything to hurt the cause of Tibet's freedom. If anything, the CTA has to be blamed for not doing anything to promote the cause. Instead it has distracted itself and others from the cause by its persecution of Shugden practitioners.





 

[Blueupali]

Well obviously Dorje Shugden is and was a Gelug practice.  But as usual, the Dalai Lama's people try to re-write history to make it convenient.  Okay, so it was after Je Tsongkhapa, but then you know, the first DL was after Je Tsogkhapa, so that alone doesn't even matter.  Just like Milarepa was after Naropa, with Marpa in between, but that doesn't make Milarepa less valid.
  I guess one thing that always stands out is that somehow the "Gelugpas" (Dalai Lama ones) seem so very uneducated about lineage.  Trijang Rinpoche, Phabongkha Rinpoche, all did this practice.  Of course Trijang Rinpoche supposedly (according to the Dalai Lama) implied that people should stop practicing, but um like the Dalai Lama is such a big liar.  Really, he reminds me of George Bush.
  But even if that happened, which obviously isn't logical since the current reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is doing the practice, still it is a Gelug practice.  Yeah.  I don't know what anyone is even talking about except that obviously the Dalai Lama wanted to be more powerful than valid teachers like Trijang Rinpoche, so he banned the practice his teacher gave, and turned the Gelugpa school on its head.

[psylotripitaka]

A difference of opinion does not give anyone the right to abuse their opposition.

[wang]

Of course Trijang Rinpoche supposedly (according to the Dalai Lama) implied that people should stop practicing.

If  HHDL ever said that, he is a liar.   

Back in 1978, in his first open talk to the monks about why he oppose DS practice(by that time, it was mainly due to Nechung, his personal protector's suggestion, not anything about hurting his life etc. in as amplified in the 90s), he made it clear that Trijiang Rinpoche dis-agree on his view.  He recalled what Trijiang Rinpoche comment after he presented his decision:" if there was any conflict between Nechung and Dorjie Shugden, there must be something wrong in between"

[Blueupali]

I totally agree that the Dalai Lama would be lying, as is usual for him.
  Here is the interview with the ISC where a representative from the CTA mentions that the Dalai Lama claims that Trijang Rinpoche said that he should stop practicing.... but like the representative mentions, they never met publicly. Anyway, the reincarnate Trijang Rinpoche does the banned practice.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/interview-with-cta-representative-thubten-wangchen/

[wang]

What this monk said doesn't imply it's what HHDL said.  I tend to believe that it is a typical respond by 'educated monk' sitting on HHDL's side: twist the fact in order to comfort themselves. Especially in this monk's case: he committed be disciple of previous Trijiang Rinpoche.

Everybody seeks happiness and avoid pain, right?

[Blueupali]

I wish the CTA representative and everybody else could be allowed to practice Shugden again because that will bring back their samaya to their teachers.

[WisdomBeing]

It's good that this issue was discussed at SOAS, which is a respected academic institution. However, i also do think that Dorje Shugden practitioners were under represented because unfortunately, the NKT is thought by some to be anti-Dalai Lama and the issue becomes all that instead of focusing on the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice. I know that the Dorje Shugden ban IS all about the Dalai Lama's position on the issue, but because of the history of the NKT, its relationship with the public protests against the Dalai Lama etc, people become distracted. What i am trying to say is that views of non-NKT Dorje Shugden practitioners would have given the audience the opportunity to not be coloured by prejudice. Also with due respect to Carol McGuire, who is an ex-NKT member, her beef is with the NKT and her experiences within the NKT. I cannot comment on her views on NKT because as an ex-member of NKT, of course she is bound to be very upset by her experiences - I have no experience of NKT so have no right to comment. In my view, her bitterness is to do with NKT and NOT to do with Dorje Shugden, so I hope that ex-NKT members would please see the distinction. Please note, I have no personal issue with NKT and respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso tremendously.

In http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-shugden-controversy-a-panel-discussion/comment-page-2/, Kay Beswick had suggested the following as possible panelists:

1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.

2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.

3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.

4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India

5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.

6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa: Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.

Any of these would have given another perspective on the Dorje Shugden issue and it is unfortunate that due to expense or time, their inclusion in this particular panel was not possible. Perhaps at the next panel discussion and I hope there will be many more to highlight the very real issues faced by Dorje Shugden practitioners.

[bonfire]

Dr Martin A. Mills related this statement from the Tibetans society in Ledak - India:
"our lamas are higher than the Gods"

Indeed, one's lama is higher than Gods.
One's lama, one's guru is higher than all Buddhas.

Why?
Because he is one's guru, the Buddha in action towards which the student has created karmic access to. Because of the physical connection, because of the karmic connection, because of the samaya, one's guru is more important to THAT student than all the Buddhas.

Thus, if one's guru practices Dorje Shugden and propitiates Dorje Shugden, the student that would go against his teacher, his guru, would make his guru wrong.
It is like saying: "my guru was/is wrong, I know better".

Then , in all logic, if one makes his guru wrong, then one makes all Buddhas wrong.
If one knows better than all Buddhas, then one needs no Buddha, one states himself higher, more knowledgeable, more reliable than the collection of all enlightened beings.
Also, in doing so, one severed his connection to a lineage and is no more reliable to teach.

Now, isn't it what the Dalai Lama has done?
Why?

[christine V]

Whether the Panels are pro or con toward Dorje Shugden issues. The most important matter is this is the first open dialog on Dorje Shugden. And i believe this open discussion have brought to much attention to the world on this issues.

Good Things are some of the Speakers have actually pro to Dorje Shugden. And they are the more to the academic side.

Hope more of this kind of health discussion can be held in the near future.

[WisdomBeing]

What could be interesting would be if any of the six people suggested by Kay Beswick, especially academics like Helmut Gassner or Prof Donald Lopez Jr or both of them could be invited to speak at the Oxford Union on the Dorje Shugden issue. This would really bring awareness of this controversy to the impressionable yet intelligent youth of tomorrow, the activists and the thinkers. It would be interesting to see what the students make of the arguments for and against.

[Ringo Starr]

ISC and others, work with Dr Hill towards another forum soon. I'm sure he has woken up to the fact that there is serious substance in the "side" that is asking for a removal of the ban. 

[DharmaSpace]

I do think intellectual discussions are good to have but would be good if the forum had a purpose to it? Like a goal to work towards. Like bringing tibetan unity, healing the rifts brought about the ban. if there is no ban, why are the lines so clear on social media and out there whereby people protest against it, is it just delusional people and lamas who have to much time on their hands? Nothing better to do, but disturb the Dalai Lama and CTA?

Mind you while we have our tea and scones watching this most engaging session, Lamas, lay people are suffering discrimination that is makes it difficult for them to do anything. In fact for the people who are dorje shugden practitioners a substantial time is spent on social media and real life dealing with people who don't know about the issue, people who criticise so much time wasted, it is as my Indian colleague says TIME PAST.

So would be good if the forum has some objectives , the forum can turn out to be quite beneficial too then apart from being informative. And please drop people who have their own agenda like Carol Mcguire who just wants to stomp on NKT and misses the point. There are a big group out there who are not associated to NKT in one way or another.