Author Topic: Article By Robert Thurman  (Read 5782 times)

DharmaSpace

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Article By Robert Thurman
« on: May 04, 2014, 02:48:50 PM »
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Ever since 1997, when, according to detailed Indian police investigations, pseudo- monks who infiltrated to Dharamsala from China murdered the Venerable Lobsang Gyatso, a noted lama close to the Dalai Lama, and his two young disciples, the cult of the Dolgyal-Shugden spirit has been on the attack. The well-evidenced culprits were not tried as they escaped back into Tibet and China, but the cult continued its campaign at the behest of, and with substantial funding from, the United Front department of the People's Republic of China, the agency handling relations with non-Chinese "minority nationalities." The futile effort of the cult backed by the agency seeks to alienate Tibetans from the Dalai Lama, their beloved leader and even to turn world public opinion against the acclaimed Nobel Laureate and Gandhi heir. The final aim is to disrupt the Dalai Lama's fifty-year-long nonviolent "truth and justice" campaign, to free the six million Tibetan people to be themselves in the special autonomous minority region offered them by the Chinese constitution, so far only on paper.

The cult and agency attack campaign is futile since its main claims are so easy to refute:

1) The worship of their chosen deity was not "banned" by the Dalai Lama, since he has no authority to "ban" what Tibetan Buddhists practice. "Banning" and "excommunicating" are not Tibetan Buddhist procedures.

Although they are Buddhists who should focus on emulating the Buddha, members of the cult are free to worship their chosen "protector deity," whom they call Dorje Shugden, as much as they like. The young Dalai Lama himself did propitiate it as a minor worldly spirit or angel, until he studied the history of its cult and decided it was not a protector at all, but instead a mischievous "king" spirit known as Dolgyal ("king demon from Dol"). Once his historical studies brought him to that conclusion, he recommended that other lamas in his school cease their relationship, or at least keep it to themselves, since its liturgy contains condemnation of the minority sects of Tibetan Buddhism and of non-Buddhist religions. In the late 80s', when certain individual lamas began to proselytize its cult, inducting even Western practitioners new to Buddhism, especially in England, he took the step of asking such persons to refrain from attending his initiations and associated advanced teachings, on the grounds that they were not following his advice and so should not take him as their teacher. They then went on the attack, claiming they had been "banned" and "excommunicated," etc., when in fact the Dalai Lama was exercising his religious freedom by not accepting students who reject his advice, and actually go so far as to condemn him!

2) The cult of Dolgyal Shugden is that of a minor angel or demon, and never has been mainstream, To claim that "four million" people belong to it, or even "millions," is untrue.

3) The members of the cult do not come from numerous Tibetan sects, but exclusively from the super-orthodox fundamentalists of the majority Gelukpa sect or order.

4) The Dalai Lama has never asked anyone to persecute anyone, and members of the cult who mind their own business and do not attack the Dalai Lama are not bothered by other Tibetans. Those who do attack the Dalai Lama with outrageous name-calling--"dictator," "false lama," even "demon," and "liar," etc., naturally do provoke the vast majority of Tibetans, who adore their Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama himself has never approved of either the provocations or any harsh responses, and remains steadfast in his adherence to nonviolence in principle and practice.

5) The whole fuss would have died down long ago except for the fact that the "hard-line" operatives of the "United Front Work Department" of the People's Republic of China, the agency in charge of dealing with China's "minority nationalities," sees the cult as a potential wedge they hope to drive between the Dalai Lama and his people and between him and world opinion. They therefore fund the leaders of the cult in Tibet, Mongolia, India and the West, and provide them the means to carry on their expensive propaganda campaigns. Evidence for this is very plain on the surface. For example, the so-called "Panchen Lama" reincarnation, whom the Communist party chiefs appointed after abducting and disappearing the five year old boy properly chosen in the traditional way by a committee of his monastery with approval of the Dalai Lama, is shown on the internet in various photographs sitting in front of a large icon of Dolgyal Shugden, as a sign of aggressive defiance of the Dalai Lama. The obvious fact is that the clearly stated purpose of the cult and the United Front agency of the PRC is to try to prove to the world that the Dalai Lama is not as nice as we all think, but is a bad, even "evil," person.

Whatever one believes about the reality of fierce angels or demons, it is clear that the leaders of the Dolgyal Shugden cult have done nothing over the last 30 years but cause trouble, both to their own followers and to the unity of the Tibetan people, both in exile and in Tibet. It has benefited no one except those misguided operatives in the Chinese government who wish to destroy Tibetan Buddhist culture, in order to assimilate systematically deracinated Tibetans into becoming second class Chinese citizens, and thus, through such a policy of crushing the identities and even lives of the "minority nationality" Tibetans, to secure forever their claim to the vast territories and resources of the Tibetan plateau. But as we have seen all over the world--and as aware persons can attest here in America with our still very much present First Americans--history never does end, people do not give up their distinctive identities, and truth and justice inevitably arise from the ashes of even genocidal flames.

Those who would like to read a thorough study of the Dolgyal Shugden cult by a distinguished professional journalist, can download a kindle copy of R. Bultrini, The Dalai Lama and the King Demon, published by Tibet House US.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-thurman/the-dalai-lama-cult-of-dolgyal-shugden_b_4903441.html


DharmaSpace

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 03:35:18 PM »
The murders were never proven conclusively by any police force, so are we
going to sentence 'Dorje Shugden' without conclusive proof.  It is typical isn't it   for anti Dorje Shugden people and CTA to condemn without much proof. Nechung is a spirit true and true and Dorje Shugden comes from a line of incarnation of realised and enlightened masters. For a professor of stature to make such conjectural comments is really unbecoming.

1. I would advise the professor to visit South india and observe how Dorje
Shugden monks were treated by lay people. There are documentaries to proof it as well from France 24 and Swiss tv. many of us have been to South India to see it for ourselves, so deny all you wish, we know the truth. In fact the good professor requested for Dorje Shugden sogtae before and was rejected.

2.  Again a lack of information, NKT for example has the most centers and study groups combined world wide, don't forget Mongolia, South East Asia, South      West China, the practice is growing and growing.

3. Just because we are the only ones practicing it, this does not mean anything. In addition we are not forcing down people's throats to engage in this practice.  Nechung is a spirit, so why no one bans his practice?

4. Persecution is happening as we speak, violence against monks and threats    against monks. So I guess when we deny enough times nothing is actually          happening.

5. We are not in concert or collaborating with China in any shape way or form. If we were getting dosh from the Chinese we probably could kick back, but no we do have to work very hard to spread Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

eyesoftara

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2014, 07:46:22 AM »
Funding from China? Where? Murder. Not proven. All this are unproven accusations. Of course China will take the opportunity for public relation reasons to photograph the Panchen Lama with Dorje Shugden since the Dalai Lama is against the practice that many Tibetans have been practicing and received from their Lama. What do Mr Thurman expect? That is not prove of any funding. Well even if there are funding, I think it is fair, for the the Dalai Lama receives substantial funding from anti-communist western organizations even now. All this are just politics.

The real question is a spiritual one. The Dalai Lama clearly banned the practice by asking monks to promise not to practice Dorje Shugden or else to be ex-communicated. This resulted in Gaden Monastery to break into Gaden and Shar Gaden; Sera into Sera and Serpom. Families of monks from Shar Gaden and Serpom are treated like pariahs. I think it is fair to say the Dalai Lama banned practice; not like what Mr Thurman claimed that the Dalai Lama merely advised against the practice.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »
What an idiot. Such a kiss ass he can't even think logically about the overwhelming evidence proving the opposite of everything he says in his unBuddhist support if human rights abuse.

Thom

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 03:35:21 AM »
I know Bob, I have had many conversations with him. We've laughed and had dinner, However at the command of HHDL He threatened me for an hour back in 1996, to stop this nonsense, as I was building the first monastery in the USA Protected Forever by the Dharmapala Shri Dorje Shugden. These people are stuck within the mind of a Medievalist Theocratic Plutocrat, He appears bewildered in a world he can no longer control. We have our voices and Democratic Process to chide him wherever he goes until the day he dies to recant and beg forgiveness for all the harm he himself is doing to the Dharma and all the People with each lie he perpetuates. The Daila Lama needs to repent and admit his crimes of murdering a Wisdom Buddha, all the people he enslaved for hundreds of years. All the lives lost due to his duplicity dealing with the Chinese and the CIA. His legacy will dissolve with time, He will be like a bad wind that has past away.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2014, 06:23:49 AM »
Hi Thom!

How are you? I haven't seen you for awhile! How is your monastery going?

As for the Dalai Lama - I believe in karma so regardless of our beliefs, it doesn't matter if the Dalai Lama is legit or not - if he is not, he WILL get the results of his actions.

That saying, we should still strive to bring down the ban to reduce the suffering of Dorje Shugden practitioners the world over, and to bring the benefits of his practice to more people.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

DharmaSpace

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 07:26:34 AM »
Hi Thom,
Nice to see you back. Build more Dorje Shugden statues all over :)

If the US government can authorise building a Satan statue at Oklahoma capital and ten commandments in the US why not Dorje Shugden, would be nice if we get a big Dorje Shugden at Washington DC. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2535050/Satan-worshipers-want-7-foot-tall-statue-devil-Oklahoma-state-Capitol.html


Big Uncle

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 07:56:41 AM »
I am sorry but the statements by Robert Thurman is unsubstantiated and truly unbecoming of a scholar like him. What happens when the ban comes down? What will Thurman say then? Will people still respect him as the scholar since he had proclaimed so many unsubstantiated claims against Dorje Shugden and the practitioners. I will never forget... Thurman was the one who called Shugden practitioners, "the Taliban of Tibetan Buddhism." Once the ban is down, he will forever carry the stigma of being a hardline supporter of the ban without scholarly reasoning and almost fanatical views on the issue. I am sorry but his views debase his reputation as a scholar.

christine V

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 08:29:22 AM »
Well, it is not a surprise since he came from Dalai Lama Camp.
Professor is just a title. He can say whatever he likes but the truth is out there. Is not going to be covered up just by a writing.

Freyr Aesiragnorak

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Re: Article By Robert Thurman
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2014, 04:21:51 AM »
So sad that a person who's works have led many to the Buddhist Path and to the Gelugpa tradition in particular is so stuck and backwards. While outwardly portraying that one should always question and learn, it is very disappointing that he blatantly ignores the substantial evidence that strikingly contradicts every point that he has made about the practice and practitioners of Dorje Shugden as explained in how article. He tries to list out the points of his argument clearly, but without backing it up with substantial evidence, the contrary is true in fact.

Perhaps what we need to bring down the ban is an equally famous "professor" to provide a counter argument against these points.