Author Topic: A Question about Duldzin  (Read 9134 times)

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
A Question about Duldzin
« on: January 28, 2014, 07:22:36 AM »
I have a question and i wonder if anyone can shed some light. As I understand it, Lord Duldzin was one of Lama Tsongkhapa's closest disciples, if not the closest, having built Gaden monastery for Lama Tsongkhapa. So would it have been considered that Tsongkhapa had three heart sons instead of the two that is traditionally depicted?

I read somewhere or someone told me that Duldzin became persona non grata because of the link with Dorje Shugden, but surely, before the ban on Dorje Shugden by HH 14th Dalai Lama, wouldn't Duldzin have been edified? And Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Freyr Aesiragnorak

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 02:56:07 PM »
Just my limited understanding, as I have been told before Lord Duldzin WAS one of Lama Tsongkhapa's heart disciples. In fact, as it was told to me, Lama Tsongkhapa actually wanted to pass his teaching throne on to Lord Duldzin, however Lord Duldzin humbly refused as all he wanted to do was practice, stating he wasn't qualified enough. It was then that Lama Tsongkhapa passed the teaching throne on to Gyaltsab Je. Maybe that it why only Gyaltsab Je and Khedrub Je are visualized.

On another note, however, now I'm not sure of this, but I'm sure you can visualise Lord Duldzin during the Guru Yoga practice as well. As far as I know, even though in the short form of the practice you only invite Lama Tsongkhapa and 2 Heart Sons from Tushita in front of you, in actuality all the lineage Lama's minds descend as well.

Just my thoughts.

vajratruth

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2014, 04:40:31 PM »
I have a question and i wonder if anyone can shed some light. As I understand it, Lord Duldzin was one of Lama Tsongkhapa's closest disciples, if not the closest, having built Gaden monastery for Lama Tsongkhapa. So would it have been considered that Tsongkhapa had three heart sons instead of the two that is traditionally depicted?

I read somewhere or someone told me that Duldzin became persona non grata because of the link with Dorje Shugden, but surely, before the ban on Dorje Shugden by HH 14th Dalai Lama, wouldn't Duldzin have been edified? And Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?


Dear Wisdom Being,

You asked a very good question and one can only speculate. The fact is Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen did feature prominently as one of two heart sons of Je Tsongkhapa. Earlier thangkas of Tsongkhapa featured the hearts sons as Duldzin Drakpa and Gyaltsab Je. it was only later that Khedrub Je came into the picture seemingly to displace Duldzin.[see pic below] It would have been difficult to ignore Duldzin's presence and prominence in the life of Tsongkhapa who himself described Duldzin has having had a masterly grasp of the monastic codes which Tsongkhapa held to be all important. In addition, Duldzin's works in the Vinaya was also highly praised by all including Tsongkhapa. Not only did Duldzin Drakpa build Ganden but also other monasteries including Tsunmo Tsal in Tagtse Dzong. In addition, around the time the prominence of Duldzin Drakpa would have been similar to the prominence of Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang during his, in that most of the significant lamas and scholars were in fact students of Duldzin, including Jamyang Choje Tashi Palden who founded Drepung Monastery.



Je Tsongkhapa featured with Duldzin and Gyaltsab Je as his two hearts sons (source: Himalayan Art)

Later, records of Duldzin's significance and in fact much of his scholarly works disappeared and for such a thing to happen, it would take effort from quarters who had the means, power and motivation to do such a thing.

I would say that from the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama, there were attempts to erase posthumously all of Tulku Drakpa's lineage. If anyone in history had anything to benefit from trying to remove all traces and history of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, it would have been his political enemies eg the regent of the Fifth Dalai Lama. Although the Fifth Dalai Lama did make spiritual appeasement to Tulku Drakpa's lineage and wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden (as arising out of Tulku Drakpa), I believe that politically there were vigorous efforts to wipe out his line. Recall that upon hearing strange sounds from the the mausoleum of Tulku Drakpa, the Regent of the Fifth Dalai Lama removed the remains of Tulku Drakpa and cast it into the river. Such an audacious move is evidence that the inclination of the powers that be then, was to erase all signs of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen as his memory was still perceived to be  a threat to the reign of the 5th Dalai Lama even in death. And indeed efforts to totally erase Tulku Drakpa's lineage did have support.

As to why such efforts failed to erase Panchen Sonam Drakpa along with it, I imagine it would been due to the fact that it was too hard to render persona non granta, the lama was was also the Abbot of all the three great Gelug Monasteries and whose works was already in use by the monastic universities of the time.

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 08:50:32 AM »
Thank you Vajratruth for your response. Fair enough that in the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, they attempted to destroy Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and his lineage, including Duldzin (with the unusual exception of Panchen Sonam Dragpa as you noted). However, I had thought that AFTER having declared Dorje Shugden a demon, the Great 5th realised that Dorje Shugden wasn't a demon when he could not be subdued and acknowledged that Dorje Shugden was a Buddha, thus building the chapel Trode Khangsar and moulding a statue by hand himself. Now, if he recognised Dorje Shugden to be a Buddha, surely it negated the need for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's name to be tarred and his entire line to be decimated?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

dsiluvu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 09:14:07 AM »
Hmmm interesting Vajratruth... but what you are saying is just "speculations" right?

In regards to what you're saying that the 5th attempted to erase posthumously all of Tulku Drakpa's lineage...  then why would the 5th made a statue of Dorje Shugden and build a chapel - Trode Khangsar where from then on pujas of Dorje Shugden were done regularly until now with the ban imposed by the 14th Dalai Lama?

I would say it is more of the 5th's people/ministers around him who was the one who is trying their best to erase Duldzin's lineage for they feared the truth about them "murdering" Duldzin would led to the disgrace of the Dalai Lama and his office. This will lead to them losing power and control over the people which is the very main reason why they were so insecure and threatened by Duldzin's fame from the beginning. 

However, I have heard the story told by Lamas about why there Duldzin is not included as one of the heart sons, and it is basically similar to Freyr Aesiragnorak said below. Many has said because Duldzin is famous for his humility and He never wanted the lime light and always purposely stood at the back, instead he would rather build Gaden for Tsongkhapa, doing all the work quietly. This perhaps also the same reason why Duldzin became such a well respected and loved Lama.     

icy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 11:36:03 AM »
I have a question and i wonder if anyone can shed some light. As I understand it, Lord Duldzin was one of Lama Tsongkhapa's closest disciples, if not the closest, having built Gaden monastery for Lama Tsongkhapa. So would it have been considered that Tsongkhapa had three heart sons instead of the two that is traditionally depicted?

I read somewhere or someone told me that Duldzin became persona non grata because of the link with Dorje Shugden, but surely, before the ban on Dorje Shugden by HH 14th Dalai Lama, wouldn't Duldzin have been edified? And Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?


Dear Wisdom Being,

You asked a very good question and one can only speculate. The fact is Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen did feature prominently as one of two heart sons of Je Tsongkhapa. Earlier thangkas of Tsongkhapa featured the hearts sons as Duldzin Drakpa and Gyaltsab Je. it was only later that Khedrub Je came into the picture seemingly to displace Duldzin.[see pic below] It would have been difficult to ignore Duldzin's presence and prominence in the life of Tsongkhapa who himself described Duldzin has having had a masterly grasp of the monastic codes which Tsongkhapa held to be all important. In addition, Duldzin's works in the Vinaya was also highly praised by all including Tsongkhapa. Not only did Duldzin Drakpa build Ganden but also other monasteries including Tsunmo Tsal in Tagtse Dzong. In addition, around the time the prominence of Duldzin Drakpa would have been similar to the prominence of Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang during his, in that most of the significant lamas and scholars were in fact students of Duldzin, including Jamyang Choje Tashi Palden who founded Drepung Monastery.



Je Tsongkhapa featured with Duldzin and Gyaltsab Je as his two hearts sons (source: Himalayan Art)

Later, records of Duldzin's significance and in fact much of his scholarly works disappeared and for such a thing to happen, it would take effort from quarters who had the means, power and motivation to do such a thing.

I would say that from the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama, there were attempts to erase posthumously all of Tulku Drakpa's lineage. If anyone in history had anything to benefit from trying to remove all traces and history of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, it would have been his political enemies eg the regent of the Fifth Dalai Lama. Although the Fifth Dalai Lama did make spiritual appeasement to Tulku Drakpa's lineage and wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden (as arising out of Tulku Drakpa), I believe that politically there were vigorous efforts to wipe out his line. Recall that upon hearing strange sounds from the the mausoleum of Tulku Drakpa, the Regent of the Fifth Dalai Lama removed the remains of Tulku Drakpa and cast it into the river. Such an audacious move is evidence that the inclination of the powers that be then, was to erase all signs of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen as his memory was still perceived to be  a threat to the reign of the 5th Dalai Lama even in death. And indeed efforts to totally erase Tulku Drakpa's lineage did have support.

As to why such efforts failed to erase Panchen Sonam Drakpa along with it, I imagine it would been due to the fact that it was too hard to render persona non granta, the lama was was also the Abbot of all the three great Gelug Monasteries and whose works was already in use by the monastic universities of the time.


What Vajratruth said is right.  Since Duldzin Drapka was to become the protector of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine he had passed the position over to Khedrub Je. 

Even up today we can see how the CTA tried to distort and obliterate the lineage of Duldzin Drapka.  Therefore, we can imagine in ancient Tibet what they would do simply to erase it from history.  But I do not see this as an obstacle to garner faith on Dorje Shugden because truth will always prevail.  A Dorje Shugden Renaissance is now bursting out from its seam.  People will be clambering to put in place and put right every single detail of the origin and history of the golden lineage.  Hence, nothing but the truth will be recorded and its deserving glory will be reinstated.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 03:28:28 PM »
Actually the Drakpa Gyaltsen line of incarnations was outlawed since the time of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. It was the office of the Dalai Lama that manages the recognition of tulkus and since the incarnation has not been found since Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's time due to political reasons.

This more or less lead many scholars to relegate Duldzin and his prestigious incarnation, Panchen Sonam Drakpa to the background. Anyway, what we know of Duldzin today is very much 'colored' by recent translation works. It may not be reflected in the monastery and especially in monasteries that uses the textbooks of Panchen Sonam Drakpa. Also because Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen had turned down the position of Gaden Tripa, Gyaltsab Je and Kedrub Je who were 2nd and 3rd Gaden Tri Rinpoches were naturally more esteemed that Duldzin.

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 07:59:35 AM »
While I agree with the reasons presented by Freyr Aesiragnorak,Vajratruth and others about why Duldzin has not been upheld as one of the heart sons of Je Tsongkhapa to this day, I would also like to add my own view, here, of why this has been so.

I go back to the article, on this website, on Duldzin. These words fuel my own speculation about the "real" reason and situation:

"It is even said that both Je Tsongkhapa and Duldzin were actually emanations of the same enlightened mind, manifesting simultaneously as teacher and student to show the perfect example of Guru Devotion".

If we take, with faith, the import of these words ,we realize that it is a 'conspiracy' of sorts between Je Tsongkhapa and Duldzin from the very beginning to 'pave the way' for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as  a Protector.



 
 

fruven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 08:03:20 PM »
If a high incarnate lama was not recognize or not search for what would have happened? If they are brought to study in a monastery the Dharma seeds can be opened at a very young age. If not it would take much more effort and time on their own for the Dharma seeds to open. However what we are talking about here is a fully enlightened mind, have full control over rebirth and ultimate bodhichitta.

yontenjamyang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • Email
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 09:11:04 AM »
Thank You WisdomBeing for the post and especially vajratruth for clearly providing the answer.

We can see the profundity of the Protector's practice if one have the opportunity and do enough research, study and actually practice the Protector with a Guru's blessings. Hence, I have no doubt about the pure lineage of the Protector. This is the basis of my practice and I rejoice that I have the merits for this practice.

Having this basis of faith and understanding, the question about Duldzin is easily understood and agreed as answered by vajratruth. Without the faith and understanding, I think it would be hard for others of lesser merit to agree. Whatever the reasons for history to be "changed" and wiped out, no one can deny that the Lineage of the Protector from Duldzin Himself all the way to Trijang Rinpoche has produce the greatest Lamas generation after generation. This cannot be disputed.

One must not also forget that in Gendun Drup who was also a great disciple of Lama Tsongkhapa, we have the Dalai Lamas incarnations. Similarly also, Gendun Drup is not depicted as the Heart Sons of Lama Tsongkhapa. It is as though both Duldzin and Gendun Drup took up the the "method" role and the Gyaltsab Je and Khedrub Je the "Wisdom" role.

Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 02:34:01 PM »
Very interesting question. I knew about the fact that Duldzin was one of Lama Tsongkhapa's heart sons and that he requested not to be the Gaden Tripa, but instead lived a quiet life in his monastery. It never occurred to me why his image was not on the Thangkas or why he was not one of the two heart sons... I just thought it was more logical to have Khedrup Je as the other especially since he was the 3rd Gaden Tripa after all.

I have always wondered why Duldzin declined to be the Gaden Tripa after Tsongkhapa... I mean, he is surely an enlightened being, and the purpose of enlightened beings is to spread the Dharma. Perhaps even at that time, after his promise to Nechung that he will arise as a protector to protect the Gelug tradition, he knew conflict will arise and this his line of incarnations would be banned. It looks like Duldzin has began protecting the Gelug lineage from day one, showing his determination. No wonder so many people love Dorje Shugden practice for its reliability and swift results.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 07:04:43 PM »
Very interesting question. I knew about the fact that Duldzin was one of Lama Tsongkhapa's heart sons and that he requested not to be the Gaden Tripa, but instead lived a quiet life in his monastery. It never occurred to me why his image was not on the Thangkas or why he was not one of the two heart sons... I just thought it was more logical to have Khedrup Je as the other especially since he was the 3rd Gaden Tripa after all.

I have always wondered why Duldzin declined to be the Gaden Tripa after Tsongkhapa... I mean, he is surely an enlightened being, and the purpose of enlightened beings is to spread the Dharma. Perhaps even at that time, after his promise to Nechung that he will arise as a protector to protect the Gelug tradition, he knew conflict will arise and this his line of incarnations would be banned. It looks like Duldzin has began protecting the Gelug lineage from day one, showing his determination. No wonder so many people love Dorje Shugden practice for its reliability and swift results.

It would be interesting if Duldzin did accept to be the Gaden throneholder. Then, it would interesting how they would depict him today. Do they skip him and have Gyaltsab Je and the next throneholder? Anyway, its not really the position and time yet perhaps and he did in the end become a throneholder when he took rebirth as Panchen Sonam Drakpa. Not just as Gaden Tripa but also abbots of Gaden, Sera and Drepung. Incredible feat!

gbds3jewels

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
    • Email
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 05:56:09 AM »
Very interesting question and even more interesting answers from various party. However based on the choice of word used eg "I was told...", "it was said that...." It seems to me this are all in some ways speculation. Then again are we ever really sure world history as we know it did happen as we learnt.

Most of us would never get to read and interpret the original text where the history of Je Tsongkhapa was recorded. I guess we all have to deduced our own conclusion based on best available facts.

My question is would the answer to this question change your believe of who Dorje Shugden is? Would the answer strengthen or weaken your believe?

Solomon Lang

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Who is d wise man? He who sees what's to born.
    • Email
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 07:05:27 AM »
Does anyone have a picture of an old thangka with Je Tsongkhapa together with Duldzin Dragpa? The picture posted in this thread does not show Je Tsongkhapa together with Duldzin Dragpa in the same thangka. Duldzin Dragpa is the one in the middle of the thangka.
Solomon's Judgement: 2 women came to resolve a quarrel over which was d true mother of a baby. When Solomon suggested they should divide d child in two with a sword, one said she would rather give up d child than see it killed. Solomon then declared d woman who showed compassion 2b the true mother.

Dondrup Shugden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: A Question about Duldzin
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2015, 07:09:26 AM »
HE Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen is an important lineage Master who incarnated to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen who emanated as our Dharma Protector.

This article gives us some clear historical facts and details of this powerful lineage.  Good to read on our Shugden lineage.