Author Topic: Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden in Nottingham interview (MP3)  (Read 2581 times)

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Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden in Nottingham interview (MP3 courtesy of Mohani)

download here:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/dalailama-uk08.mp3


Lineageholder

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Re: Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden in Nottingham interview (MP3)
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2008, 06:45:38 AM »
For those who are interested, the transcript of the Dalai Lama's comments on Dorje Shugden practice is available here:
http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=340.0

The Dalai Lama says there is no ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden, but he is lying.  I've compiled, from the chronology of events on the WSS website quotations from the Dalai Lama's speeches in India where he actually uses the word 'ban':

_________________

March 10th, 1996
During annual teachings at the Thekchen Choeling Temple in Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama imposes a ban on worshipping Dorje Shugden, ‘Whether outside of Tibet or within Tibet, this deity is discordant with our government and all our deities; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Tibet. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this last step. It will be the last resort if we have to knock on your doors (if you do not
follow this advice).’

November 19th-21st, 1996
The Dalai Lama travels to South India to visit Tibetan monasteries at Mundgod, without the traditional request, which is unprecedented for a Dalai Lama. The Dorje Shugden Society holds off a peaceful demonstration in the hope of reconciliation with the Dalai Lama. They petition the Dalai Lama, but they are denied an audience. The Dalai Lama speaks in even harsher terms about the ban, and threatens, ‘You might feel that by publishing letters, pamphlets, etc. against this ban, the Dalai Lama will revoke the ban. This will never be the case. If you take a hard stand, I will tighten this ban still further.’

A further description of what the Dalai Lama said:

On November 20th the Dalai Lama gives a talk at Drepung Lama Camp from 8.00 a.m. to 11.00 a.m. In this talk the Dalai Lama says that he is no longer striving for complete independence for Tibet from China. Tibetans, in view of their small population, large land mass, lack of natural resources, need for industrialization, should therefore be striving more for genuine autonomy under China rather than complete independence. As times change later on, independence can be mooted.

He also says, ‘During this year’s New Year teachings, I spoke against the worship of Shugden, and expressed my feeling. I did not ask the Tibetan exile Cabinet or the exile Tibetan parliament to enforce the ban. However, they voluntarily supported me. I appreciate their show of support. Likewise, among the abbots, there have been many who gave up worship of Shugden after my talks; I give them my thanks for their compliance.’

August 27th, 1998
At the Annual Convention of the Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC) at the Tibetan Children’s Village (TCV), Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama, in the course of his opening address, says: ‘I have imposed this ban for three reasons: (1) Throughout history this worship has been at odds with the Ganden Phodrang ruling government of Tibet, (2) Buddhism, which is very profound, is in danger of degenerating into spirit worship, and (3) worship of Dholgyal (Shugden) creates sectarianism. For these three reasons I have imposed the ban. You, the younger generation, should be careful. It is dangerous. I was informed that more than a hundred worshippers of Dholgyal were coming.’

January 13th, 1999
The Dalai Lama pays a visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor. At a gathering of the Labrang’s monks, the Dalai Lama says: ‘…during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang asked that the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. This is ridiculous talk. My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan’s politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face-to-face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may be meeting each other for the last time.’

During this private audience with the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed-la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, humbly points out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and
against Trijang Labrang, which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requests that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, would the Dalai Lama kindly consider revoking the ban. To this, the Dalai Lama angrily replies, ‘There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.’

January 14th, 1999
During the first public address of his visit to Drepung Monastery, the Dalai Lama touches briefly on the Tibetan issue, and dwells on his ban on the worship of Dorje Shugden. An excerpt reads: ‘The Dorje Shugden Society play games with
me wherever I go. They have published an announcement. They think that I will back off. That I will never do. If not in this life, a successor will be appointed to sustain this ban.’

_________________

I included the Dalai Lama's original statement on 10th March 1996 because, although it doesn't mention a ban, it was clearly the inspiration for the government and Tibetan institutions to institute a ban.  It's clear that this is what the Dalai Lama wanted from his later statements such as

"I did not ask the Tibetan exile Cabinet or the exile Tibetan parliament to enforce the ban. However, they voluntarily supported me."

The Dalai Lama says there is no ban, but many times he has used this word in connection with Dorje Shugden.  How can you trust him?  He is definitely lying.  Then he says in the Nottingham interview:

Dalai Lama:
....One thing I feel, I always talk frankly, straightforward and honestly, so perhaps I think people eventually realize this person talking sincerely (laughs)....

DALAI LAMA.....STOP LYING!!!    DALAI LAMA......STOP LYING!!!   DALAI LAMA....STOP LYING!!!

With love,

Lineagholder
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 07:40:37 AM by Lineageholder »

beggar

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Re: Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden in Nottingham interview (MP3)
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2008, 08:00:56 AM »
Thank you so much Trinley Kalsang,

Your latest contribution here is ideal for the present situation, short and clear, yet every detail can be easily extended on and backed up with extensive documentation such as many materials you have provided already. Fantastic concise material for journalists and so on!

As an aside, on the subject of spirit worship and degeneration - this accusation appears indeed a bit bizarre when one remembers that the only monastery/temple dedicated entirely to a spirit is Namgyal monastery - HH the Dalai Lama's personal monastery - where Nechung abides, who has been declared a worldly spirit by the Dalai Lama himself, the Dalai Lama having also clearly stated that Nechung's oracular advice is not always reliable.
Nevertheless, Nechung is propitiated with big offerings and rituals daily at Namgyal monastery, and is invoked through various oracle mediums very often - some say more than ever. If we look at the completely and utterly contradictory statements Nechung has made about Dorje Shugden, or the disastrously wrong prediction that Tibet would be free by the year 2000, one might indeed worry about spirit worship in seemingly unexpected places!

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden in Nottingham interview (MP3)
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2008, 08:04:35 AM »
 :DOn another site, someone challenged me with this:

HH the Great Thirteenth Dalai Lama wrote, "With regard to your reference to making endeavour in the practice of taking refuge, first of all you are propitiating Shugden as a protector. Since they received Lamrim teaching from you at the Drepung Monastic Religious Centre last year and so made a connection with you, propitiation of Shugden among students there has greatly increased. The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Shugden) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure. I feel that your seeking the support of a wrathful worldly spirit (to secure benefits in) this life specifically contradicts the precepts of taking refuge. Therefore, your statement, 'I want to say from the depths of my heart that it is only due to my being confused by ignorance and not that I have knowingly entered an unwholesome path and led others onto the same path.' is contradictory."

Phabongkha replies, "You have therefore instructed me to give you an answer. I have propitiated Shugden until now because my old mother told me that Shugden is the deity of my maternal lineage. I wish to inform you that henceforth, with intense regret (for what is past) and (with the intention of) restraining my faults (in the future), I will never again propitiate (Shugden) or make daily offerings and supporting prayers and that I will wholeheartedly keep this commitment in the core of my heart. Whatever mistakes I have committed until now, such as having become a cause for the mental displeasure of the Great Nechung Choegyal, contradicting the precepts of taking refuge and so forth, I request you, the supreme protector, who is especially compassionate to the lowly, to regard me with love and great compassion and patiently to forgive me. With great respect I here offer one silk scarf as a medium of request and five silver coins (to contribute to the) mandala offering."

"The Meaningful and Melodious Song of Brahma"

And my answer  :D:

"You have therefore instructed me to give you an answer"

For which reason does Phabongkha Rinpoche write ? Because he was instructed to.
By whom was he instructed ? By the King.

"I have propitiated Shugden until now"

Statement of the fact that prompted the King's instruction to give an answer.

"because my old mother told me that Shugden is the deity of my maternal lineage"

Now, it becomes very interesting    :D

For which reason the King is displeased ?

"The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Shugden) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure. I feel that your seeking the support of a wrathful worldly spirit (to secure benefits in) this life specifically contradicts the precepts of taking refuge."

Thus the King clearly states that "propitiating a worldly spirit to secure benefits in this life" is the source of the displeasure.

Does Phabongkha Rinpoche "propitiate a worldly spirit to secure benefits in this life" ? No
Did someone speak to Phabongkha Rinpoche in a way that was less than enlightened ? Yes, his mother
When did she speak in this way to Phabongkha Rinpoche ? When he was a child

"I wish to inform you that henceforth"

Remembering the way he connected to Dorje Shugden when he was a child, Phabongkha Rinpoche wishes to inform the King

"with intense regret (for what is past) and (with the intention of) restraining my faults (in the future)"

He regrets what happened when he was a child and has the intention not to repeat this fault in the future.
It means that from then on he makes the vow to propitiate Dorje Shugden forever as an enlightened being.

"I will never again propitiate (Shugden) or make daily offerings and supporting prayers"

He will never again propitiate Dorje Shugden without at the same time remembering that he is a supreme protector

"and that I will wholeheartedly keep this commitment in the core of my heart."

Promise to keep his commitment to always propitiate the Mighty Dorje Shugden

"Whatever mistakes I have committed until now"

Recognizing again what happened when he was a child

"Such as having become a cause for the mental displeasure of the Great Nechung Choegyal"

Why is it necessary to admit this fault now ? Because it caused displeasure to the Great Nechung Choegyal.
Why did it cause displeasure to the Great Nechung Choegyal ?
Because Dorje Dragden is the one who asked Mighty Dorje Shugden to protect the Geden teachings:

"Manjushri of Blissful Intelligence has insisted that I should principally protect the Geden Teachings, but since I have already sworn to Padmasambhava that I would protect all of Buddha's Teachings in general, there is no way that I can principally protect only the Geden Teachings. Now Panchen, you yourself, among holders of the Geden Teachings, these days, have the highest qualities of learning and realization. Not only that, you must arise as a wrathful protector of the Geden teachings to fulfill the commitment you have previously made !"

Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors

"contradicting the precepts of taking refuge"

Not understanding the enlightened qualities of Mighty Dorje Shugden when he was a child

"and so forth"

He confesses all the other consequences of what happened regarding his practice when he was a child

"I request you the supreme protector who is especially compassionate to the lowly to regard me with love and great compassion and patiently to forgive me"
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 10:10:56 AM by Heartspoon »