Do we have a say in how a sangha should live/travel?

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Came across this interesting article. In my opinion, I would not make any judgements or comments on what a monk should use and how he moves around. Personally, I would also put my guru (a monk) in the first class seat if and when he needs to travel on a flight. What do you think?

When you see Louis Vuitton luggage packed into a private jet, you tend to think about Jay Z more than Buddhist monks. Yet a new video making the rounds on YouTube shows Buddhist monks dressed in their traditional attire accessorized with aviator glasses and sporting wireless headphones aboard a private jet with designer...

Read more: http://search.time.com/results.html?Ntt=monks&N=0&Nty=1&p=0&cmd=tags#ixzz2Wugs7Bjx

[Ensapa]

in a perfect world, nobody can really have a say in how sangha should live, but people have jealousy and they have expectations of how monks should behave. People in general expect monks to be different from them so that they have a role model of sorts and so that they 'deserve' respect. I have heard of laypeople who said that the moral integrity of the sangha is dictated by the laypeople and it is up to the laypeople to impose what they think a sangha member should do and behave. This idea is very prevalent amongst the theravarda tradition, which is why we hear monks being criticised and forced to follow the whims and fancies of the laypeople

[hope rainbow]

Nobody would take Obama seriously if he traveled in economy class to the G8 Forum.
No, of course, it must be AIR FORCE ONE.
Nobody questions that.

When newly elected, about a year ago, Francois Hollande, the socialist president of France changed the presidential habit of travelling in an airplane to visit a countryside town. Instead, he took the train and put a night in the city of destination.
Now, he takes the plane, he does not have the time for trains and staying the night.

Now, what is actually the most important person to us: Obama, Hollande or our Guru?
So why do we have expectations that are set higher for others than our Guru?

If one's Guru travels this way or that way, the last thing to do is to think: "He should not do this, he should do this, this is not good, this is good"... After all, who is who's Guru, really?

[samayakeeper]

What one perceives may not be real. Real or not, I think if the donor believes in making the best offering to the sangha to gain merit, then so be it. Whether the donor's motivation is to offer the best or for the donor to look good, I think only the donor knows.

[Benny]

I agree with Samayakeeper , so why should we judge what type or brand of luggage a monk should use . All these are just material things , subjected to different perceptions by different people . To even attend to such frivolous perceptions and views , would be a waste of time and never ending. Material things to a monk are just material things , so why should we judge ? I am personally inclined to offer what i can best afford , if i were to buy for a monk , the main thing i would be concerned with is the functionality and comfort for the Sangha . Best is to not jump into conclusions and make judgements .

[Ensapa]

There's also the element of jealousy and superiority complex that some lay people tend to suffer from and they cannot accept that a monk who is not working has more property than them or has more money than them, and they try to cover and justify their superiority by quoting the sutras and the like, without any further reflection on what is right or wrong, and why are they supposed to support the monks and the real reason behind supporting the monks.

[Jessie Fong]

Who are we to say how a sangha should live/travel?  They can travel by whatever means is suitable for the occasion and however they can afford.  If facilities are offered by sponsors, they are at liberty to utilise those, no?

As to using aviator glasses or wireless headphones, they are just keeping up with technology. The videa may not do justice, we don't know if maybe they were actually listening to some dharma teachings or making preparations for their next teaching?

[yontenjamyang]

I agree with Tenzin Malgyur. We offer the best to the Sangha including travel but it is up to the Sangha to accept or refuge anything "extravagant" through their wisdom. The Dharma teaches one to offer the best that we can afford to the 3 Jewels of which the Sangha is the third Jewel. This is to counter miserliness the cause of not reaching the Dharma and worldly poverty.
However, as samsara is by definition full of deluded beings that judge such things, we need to be skillful in these offerings. The sangha, we trust has such skills. If these offerings of luxuries can benefit a few to generate merits against criticism of the masses and if the Sangha with pure intentions accept such offerings, I do not see what is the problem.

[Ensapa]

I agree with Tenzin Malgyur. We offer the best to the Sangha including travel but it is up to the Sangha to accept or refuge anything "extravagant" through their wisdom. The Dharma teaches one to offer the best that we can afford to the 3 Jewels of which the Sangha is the third Jewel. This is to counter miserliness the cause of not reaching the Dharma and worldly poverty.
However, as samsara is by definition full of deluded beings that judge such things, we need to be skillful in these offerings. The sangha, we trust has such skills. If these offerings of luxuries can benefit a few to generate merits against criticism of the masses and if the Sangha with pure intentions accept such offerings, I do not see what is the problem.

The problem is what I have mentioned above, that there are people who have jealousy and they mask it with the teachings and use the Buddha's teachings (!) to justify that jealousy. I would not mind at all if the criticism somes from the Dhammaraja or Sangharaja of Thailand, the equelevent of the Dalai Lama in Thailand, the supreme spiritual head the presides over all sangha members and matters of the sangha's discipline for the entire country, but for it to come out of laypeople and a council that is comprised of laity, that's a bit too hypocritical isnt it?

[brian]

I think this has a lot to do with the sponsors isn't it? Sanghas do not have the means of income and basically from what i know, does not own anything. Sanghas traveling on first class might be sponsored by the sponsors, who have the intention for the Sangha to travel with more comfort so that the Sangha would reach the destination safe and suffers less so that the Sangha will be less burdened to teach when the Sangha reaches the destination. This will be like facilitating the Dharma for me. When we offer something to the Sangha, we always offer the best quality and of our best possible means.

[rossoneri]

Rejoice!!! When i saw the picture the first thing came across to me is that the student of those monks are very respectful and giving the best for the sangha. In general public have this perception of how should monk behave and lead their lifestyle. A monk should not be seen in a luxury car, restaurant or nice house. Monk should be staying in the monastery solely and should not indulge in material things even it is given to them from their devotees. But as a normal person we can traveled and indulged ourselves in those samsaric material and being attached to it and it is acceptable even we do not have the strength not to control our mind from being attached to it. Where is the logic? Do you really think those master is same as you?

[dondrup]

There seems to be a mismatch of the perceived lifestyle of a mendicant monk and the lavish behavior of these monks in the video. One may argue that what they are enjoying now are fully-sponsored by the lay practitioners, but these monks are not skillful enough to not flaunt their good fortunes.  What more to have filmed the video and as a result creating the unnecessary criticisms and wrong views of the holy Sangha.  The public cannot be blamed for these criticisms.  It is the responsibilities of these monks to uphold their monk vows and to be mindful and aware of their conduct. 

[Ensapa]

There is also an additional factor in which most of us in this thread has also failed to take into account: The fact that the society in Thailand is not ready to accept that monks are allowed to have luxuries or have better offerings or actually use them is something we have to consider as well and the actions of these monks have deeply affected and disturbed the people of their society. In Tibetan society this would be very acceptable as the Tibetans are educated and conditioned, but not in Theravarda societies as they hold on tightly to the literal meaning of the sutras, and many of them often mentions that the Buddha has stressed that a monk must live the life a beggar. The term Bikkhu/Bikshu actually means beggar, and the Buddha chose this word to remind the monks that they are not suppose to have luxuries and only the Buddha can address monks using this word. Because of this, many of them are not able to see the flipside.

[Q]

I think it's a little different and sort of controversial when Theravadan monks travel in such a manner... I mean Theravadan practice is more closely related to how the Buddha lived compared to Mahayana or Vajrayana traditions. As much as people wish to say they are similar, the method however, is so different between Theravadan and Vajrayana tradition.

So, do we have the right to say how a sangha should live or travel? Obviously not. We're no where close to being able to hold the vows of a monk, so for tiny people like us, why criticize the Sangha. But people's mouth is such, and people place projections on how a sangha should behave, just like how they place expectations on their spouse, children and family etc.

If the monks was from Vajrayana tradition, I'd say what's wrong with a Lama sitting in a comfortable air plane and using quality things? What's wrong? It was gifted to the Lama/Monks by their devotees, they certainly did not buy it or steal it... so, is it wrong that the monk allow their devotees to practice generosity? Not only generosity is practiced by giving the lama things we ourselves find pleasing... it is also a sign of good Dharma practice AND developing gratitude for one that has benefited us, thus we would like to ensure that the monks are well taken care of. Simple as that.

However, I'm not too sure about the Theravada tradition... perhaps they have other rules that's different from Vajrayana monks... take for example, Theravada monks cannot consume meals past 12 pm, however that rule is not applied to a Vajrayana monk.

[Ensapa]

I think it's a little different and sort of controversial when Theravadan monks travel in such a manner... I mean Theravadan practice is more closely related to how the Buddha lived compared to Mahayana or Vajrayana traditions. As much as people wish to say they are similar, the method however, is so different between Theravadan and Vajrayana tradition.

So, do we have the right to say how a sangha should live or travel? Obviously not. We're no where close to being able to hold the vows of a monk, so for tiny people like us, why criticize the Sangha. But people's mouth is such, and people place projections on how a sangha should behave, just like how they place expectations on their spouse, children and family etc.

If the monks was from Vajrayana tradition, I'd say what's wrong with a Lama sitting in a comfortable air plane and using quality things? What's wrong? It was gifted to the Lama/Monks by their devotees, they certainly did not buy it or steal it... so, is it wrong that the monk allow their devotees to practice generosity? Not only generosity is practiced by giving the lama things we ourselves find pleasing... it is also a sign of good Dharma practice AND developing gratitude for one that has benefited us, thus we would like to ensure that the monks are well taken care of. Simple as that.

However, I'm not too sure about the Theravada tradition... perhaps they have other rules that's different from Vajrayana monks... take for example, Theravada monks cannot consume meals past 12 pm, however that rule is not applied to a Vajrayana monk.

In the theravardan tradition, monks are expected to be medicants and extravagance for monks are greatly frowned upon as they are pretty orthodox with the texts, but if we really think about it and why we should offer things up to the monks and how it benefits others and ourselves, then there is really nothing much about monks travelling in high class transport and using high class items. It is only when people are too attached to a certain view that they refuse to budge that creates problems.