Author Topic: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)  (Read 8266 times)

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« on: May 13, 2013, 10:11:55 AM »
Can animals be punished for their mistakes so that they will not do it again? This abbot tried..hehe

but is it justifiable?

Quote
Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
Published: 13 May 2013 at 10.34

The abbot of a popular temple in Mukdahan province penalised a dog that killed a kitten by hanging the dead cat around its neck, reports said on Monday.



The unusal punishment imposed by the abbot of Wat Sri Boon Ruang has drawn astonishment and negative comment from people visiting the temple and netizens.

A monk at the temple told reporters that the dog was raised in the area. It had bitten and killed one of the kittens when the monks were collecting alms one morning.

He said the abbot, Phra Thong, decided to hang the dead kitten around the dog's neck, using a piece of the monk's robe. Phra Thong believed that this punishment would stop the dog from attacking other cats again.

Phra Thong said he had punished other dogs in a similar fashion and it had worked before.

Most comments by netizens on social media sites criticised the abbot for punishing the dog in this manner. Here are some of the comments:

"This is crazy."

"Other dogs in the area are avoiding the dog with the dead cat. I feel bad for the dog."

"They're just animals. Please don't be cruel and act like animals."

"Great job, monk!"

Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 06:29:18 PM »
As the Abbot of a monastery... regardless of what lineage he is, I would say this is one highly attained monk... and no one should criticize a person that is holding the vows of a monk.

May be in our limited view, as normal people we see this as punishment... to a dog trainer it may seem like corrective behavior... but as a spiritual person, we should see this action as something beyond our comprehension at our current understanding. Who knows, may be there is a good reason behind this action and there really is not much of a reason to explain it... if a person understands, he will with or without explanation... and if a person doesn't, even with explanation there will be criticism... so better just keep quiet and do what He knows is right.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 04:19:55 AM »
As the Abbot of a monastery... regardless of what lineage he is, I would say this is one highly attained monk... and no one should criticize a person that is holding the vows of a monk.

May be in our limited view, as normal people we see this as punishment... to a dog trainer it may seem like corrective behavior... but as a spiritual person, we should see this action as something beyond our comprehension at our current understanding. Who knows, may be there is a good reason behind this action and there really is not much of a reason to explain it... if a person understands, he will with or without explanation... and if a person doesn't, even with explanation there will be criticism... so better just keep quiet and do what He knows is right.

Well I do think that what the abbot did was right as it has results and it has successfully stopped other dogs in the past from increasing their negative karma by killing. The abbot is indeed compassionate towards animals as he does not want them to degenerate further. How rare it is to find someone who can think that far ahead! It shows that he has complete understanding of karma and a high degree of compassion and equanimity.

Quote
He said the abbot, Phra Thong, decided to hang the dead kitten around the dog's neck, using a piece of the monk's robe. Phra Thong believed that this punishment would stop the dog from attacking other cats again.

Phra Thong said he had punished other dogs in a similar fashion and it had worked before.

Jessie Fong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 08:09:20 AM »
If it works, continue with it. If not, there must be some other way to train the dog.

But isn't it awful to have something that is dead being hung around your neck? And for how long would this dog be punished in this way? The carcass is going to start rotting, smells and pieces start to drop off. Is this "punishment" suitable for the crime?

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 12:23:05 PM »
If it works, continue with it. If not, there must be some other way to train the dog.

But isn't it awful to have something that is dead being hung around your neck? And for how long would this dog be punished in this way? The carcass is going to start rotting, smells and pieces start to drop off. Is this "punishment" suitable for the crime?

In a way, the history of the khatvanga is a punishment that is similar to this.

Quote
The form of the Buddhist khatvanga derived from the emblematic staff of the early Indian Shaivite yogins, known as kapalikas or 'skull-bearers'. The kapalikas were originally miscreants who had been sentenced to a twelve-year term of penance for the crime of inadvertently killing a Brahmin. The penitent was prescribed to dwell in a forest hut, at a desolate crossroads, in a charnel ground, or under a tree; to live by begging; to practice austerities; and to wear a loin-cloth of hemp, dog, or donkey-skin. They also had to carry the emblems of a human skull as an alms-bowl, and the skull of the Brahmin they had slain mounted upon a wooden staff as a banner.These Hindu kapalika ascetics soon evolved into an extreme outcaste sect of the 'left-hand' tantric path (Skt. vamamarg) of shakti or goddess worship. The early Buddhist tantric yogins and yoginis adopted the same goddess or dakini attributes of the kapalikas. These attributes consisted of; bone ornaments, an animal skin loincloth, marks of human ash, a skull-cup, damaru, flaying knife, thighbone trumpet, and the skull-topped tantric staff or khatvanga."[1]

DS Star

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 10:11:43 PM »
If it works, continue with it. If not, there must be some other way to train the dog.

But isn't it awful to have something that is dead being hung around your neck? And for how long would this dog be punished in this way? The carcass is going to start rotting, smells and pieces start to drop off. Is this "punishment" suitable for the crime?

Jessie, perhaps the very reason for the Abbot to tie the kitten carcass is for the dog to experience the rotten smells and the discomfort feeling of maggots crawling around its neck, thus discourage the dog from killing other kittens in future.

As mentioned by Q, the Abbot is highly attained, we should accept that his 'punishment' is motivated by compassion, not anger to revenge. There must be benefits to dog and dogs for his action to punish the dog with this method. We should not judge. We are in no position to judge.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 04:54:59 AM »
If it works, continue with it. If not, there must be some other way to train the dog.

But isn't it awful to have something that is dead being hung around your neck? And for how long would this dog be punished in this way? The carcass is going to start rotting, smells and pieces start to drop off. Is this "punishment" suitable for the crime?

Jessie, perhaps the very reason for the Abbot to tie the kitten carcass is for the dog to experience the rotten smells and the discomfort feeling of maggots crawling around its neck, thus discourage the dog from killing other kittens in future.

As mentioned by Q, the Abbot is highly attained, we should accept that his 'punishment' is motivated by compassion, not anger to revenge. There must be benefits to dog and dogs for his action to punish the dog with this method. We should not judge. We are in no position to judge.
[/quote

To put it simply, having a dead kitten around the dog's neck is much better than the dog having to pay for its misdeeds in the hell realms later which would be more cruel and more painful than having that around its neck. So when the kind monk does this it would help the dog suffer less in the near future and perhaps even have a chance to be born as a human again. In the long run, it is not cruel but compassionate although in the short term it seems to be cruel to those who do not see the big picture.

dondrup

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 06:26:12 PM »
Animals are born as such due to their ignorant minds.  As animals cannot have the wisdom to discern that killing is wrong and that the act of killing will lead to severe consequence of being reborn into the hell realms!  However, animals like dogs have the instincts to protect themselves from fear or attack from others.  These can be seen when dogs are provoked or attacked by other dogs or humans.  Hence the abbot’s unconventional method of punishing the dog by hanging the corpse of the killed kitten around the dog is likely to cause great fear in the dog!  While this might work to frighten the dog from killing further cats, it is not done skilfully enough to prevent the wrong view and negative speech karma from the public for the abbot! The abbot’s motivation is good to want to help the dog.  But will this free the dog from its killing instinct which is found in most carnivorous animals?

sonamdhargey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 06:35:59 AM »
Is this a punushment or it is a reminder to the dog of what he has done? I would say what the Abbott did was a reminder to the dog and other dogs to not kill the kitten. Animals may not understand Karma or non killing through speech therefore the Abbott have to use methods to get the message across to that dog to not kill anymore or anything he kills will be hanged on to his neck. On a layperson view, it may seem extreme to do such things but if it stopped the dog from killing then the Abbott has helped he dog to not kill anymore. It makes sense but to most people it may look like animal cruelty or abuse since most people think that is animal instinct and they should be what they are "an animal". Some may see it as a teaching some may see it an abuse or extreme. There is not right nor wrong but depends how we see it.

sonamdhargey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 06:36:54 AM »
Ensapa, can you post the picture here please?

christine V

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 06:48:05 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

Thanks for this post. I was looking on some ways to stop my cats from killing!
Yes, not matter what i did. My cat just could not stopped to play and killed rats, cockroach, lizard etc.
This is a very good methods. To me, by hanging the dead cats on the dogs this is to teach the dogs not to kill.

If we believe in next life or rebirth, imagine what will happens if the dogs or cats kills for funs. They might not have any chances to be reborn as a human because of the killings. And, if we have compassion, we should helps the dogs and cats not to kill.

Attached: the photos from Bangkok post about the dog
 

brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2013, 03:19:35 PM »
As the Abbot of a monastery... regardless of what lineage he is, I would say this is one highly attained monk... and no one should criticize a person that is holding the vows of a monk.

May be in our limited view, as normal people we see this as punishment... to a dog trainer it may seem like corrective behavior... but as a spiritual person, we should see this action as something beyond our comprehension at our current understanding. Who knows, may be there is a good reason behind this action and there really is not much of a reason to explain it... if a person understands, he will with or without explanation... and if a person doesn't, even with explanation there will be criticism... so better just keep quiet and do what He knows is right.

Well I do think that what the abbot did was right as it has results and it has successfully stopped other dogs in the past from increasing their negative karma by killing. The abbot is indeed compassionate towards animals as he does not want them to degenerate further. How rare it is to find someone who can think that far ahead! It shows that he has complete understanding of karma and a high degree of compassion and equanimity.

Quote
He said the abbot, Phra Thong, decided to hang the dead kitten around the dog's neck, using a piece of the monk's robe. Phra Thong believed that this punishment would stop the dog from attacking other cats again.

Phra Thong said he had punished other dogs in a similar fashion and it had worked before.

I agree with you Q!, this Abbot is one true attained sangha member. His action might be controversial and mean to the dog but then again if we analyse closely, this action has prevented the dog from inflicting similar sort of damage to other felines which i feel is skillful. This is really amazing for me really.... breathtaking wisdom.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 07:46:42 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

Thanks for this post. I was looking on some ways to stop my cats from killing!
Yes, not matter what i did. My cat just could not stopped to play and killed rats, cockroach, lizard etc.
This is a very good methods. To me, by hanging the dead cats on the dogs this is to teach the dogs not to kill.

If we believe in next life or rebirth, imagine what will happens if the dogs or cats kills for funs. They might not have any chances to be reborn as a human because of the killings. And, if we have compassion, we should helps the dogs and cats not to kill.

Attached: the photos from Bangkok post about the dog

you could use this same way to teach your cat not to kill too. If it works for dogs, it would most probably work for cats too. But yeah if we truly love our pets, we would also want them to not take rebirth in a lower realm after the deaths. It is already enough that they have to suffer as animals in this life and so they should do less negative actions that will lead them to that woeful state in this life at least. That is why it is important to train our pets to not kill as much as possible.

Aurore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Abbot collars cat-killer dog (pic)
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2013, 08:18:41 PM »
To check if the method is correct, we can examine it this way:-

1. What is the Abbot's motivation? Is it good or bad?
The motivation is to stop the dog from collecting more negative actions in the fastest possible way.

2. Is the dog harmed or benefitted by this action?
Hanging a dead cat around the dog does not cause pain to the dog, only discomfort. A little discomfort in return for killing is harmless in comparison. With a little discomfort, the dog stops the act of killing which benefits the dog.

3. Is this method skilful?
This may be a skilful method implemented by the Abbot for the dog to get used to a cat. The normal training methods to sensitise an animal to someone or something is to expose them to the object in a confined and control situation. For strays roaming around, it may not be so easy to introduce them to another animal. I can't say this is the best method, but results is what matters.