Author Topic: The relationship between three interdependent links.  (Read 9728 times)

vajrastorm

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The relationship between three interdependent links.
« on: May 09, 2013, 10:12:28 AM »
The three interdependent links being discussed here are the links of  'contact', 'feeling' and craving'. These are three of the twelve interdependent links that bind us to samsara. The first in this circle of interdependent links(and the prime mover) is 'ignorance'. 

'Contact' is the link that recognizes its object(of contact via the senses) as 'pleasant', 'unpleasant' or 'neutral'. 'Feeling' is the link that experiences the object as 'pleasant', 'unpleasant' or 'neutral'. However, it is 'craving' that kicks in and propels one towards suffering. Here's how.

'Craving '(according do Pabongka Rinpoche in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand) is "wanting not to be separated from happy feelings"."It is also wanting to be separated from suffering" and "clinging to this feeling".

It is "ignorance" that causes the development of "feeling" into "craving". If "ignorance' were not present, then the "feelings" would remain as just "pleasant', "unpleasant" and "neutral". They will not develop into
"craving" that cannot bear being separated from the "object of happiness" or that cannot bear to be not separated from the "object of unhappiness and misery". When 'ignorance' is present, then 'feeling' will develop into 'craving'  and 'craving' will drive us toward suffering.

Hence 'craving,' fueled by 'ignorance', is the cause of our suffering.
 


yontenjamyang

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 06:23:48 AM »
The correct view of ignorance should not be its "present" or "not present" but rather ignorance is the absent of wisdom. So is one has wisdom then we say ignorance is not present. Also, for ordinary beings,  wisdom is not present in absolute terms but is present in various degree, so correspondingly in reverse,  ignorance is also present in various degree.
I agree that lack of wisdom drives feelings into cravings. Upon feeling these pleasant, unpleasant feelings; because one does not have the wisdom that these phenomenon is not permanent and cannot be trusted to give the same feelings always, and that there is an ultimate state of bliss of Buddhahood, one crave for the feeling of pleasantness and is adverse to unpleasantness.

vajrastorm

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 02:44:47 PM »
"Ignorance"  cannot be defined as "the absence of wisdom". "Ignorance" is defined as ignorance of "the more subtle levels of cause and effect and ignorance of the view of selflessness"(p. 97, 'The Four Noble Truths' by Geshe Tashi Tsering).  Pabongka  Rinpoche in 'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.465) defines "ignorance" as " the blindness of not seeing the nature or mode of existence of something like ..cause and effect " and "the ultimate nature of reality". "Ignorance", Pabongka Rinpoche says, is "the (mistaken)view that equates the self with the perishable aggregates, the instinctive grasping at an 'I' ".

it is this 'ignorance' that is the root of suffering and samsara. In order to abandon this root delusion -ignorance - and the other delusions that arise from it - attachment/desire and hatred/anger, one has to work hard at applying the antidote of wisdom. 

Wisdom is the antidote to ignorance and to grasping at a self. This wisdom, according to Pabongka Rinpoche, is the "wisdom that understands selflessness."   

dondrup

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 07:25:57 PM »
Nagarjuna says in Essence of Dependent Relationship,

From three develop two;
From two develop seven;
From seven develop three.

Hence, from the three delusions – ignorance, craving and grasping, two actions develop: compositional actions and existence.  From these two actions, seven fruits of suffering develop: consciousness, name and form, six sources, contact, feeling, birth, and ageing and death.  From these seven, again, the three delusions develop: ignorance, craving and grasping.  In this manner, the chain interlocks and samsara is established in perpetual motion.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2015, 04:43:33 PM »
The reasons why we are in the vicious cycles of death and rebirth in Samsara are well expressed by the contributors to this article.

Personally I agree with all the reasons given and how complex our mind is and Buddhism is about taming of our minds.

We can read a lot on the tenets of Buddhism and at every level our understanding deepens and that is the true way to practise Buddhism as we experience and transform our perception of phenomena that comes and goes.

It is therefore cherished by me that Shakymuni taught for forty years in 84,000 ways so that we can be liberated.  The Dharma is so wonderful.

kelly

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 08:24:50 AM »
very profound teaching, but a lot of us who does not expose to buddha teaching they do not know about ignorance that cause us so much suffering, because a lot of us will only think is normal to react like this when there one craving arises or any others negative emotion arises, so we are so fortunate to get to know the holy teaching of Buddha it actually help us to release a lot of mind suffering.

yontenjamyang

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 09:03:09 AM »
Nagarjuna says in Essence of Dependent Relationship,

From three develop two;
From two develop seven;
From seven develop three.

Hence, from the three delusions – ignorance, craving and grasping, two actions develop: compositional actions and existence.  From these two actions, seven fruits of suffering develop: consciousness, name and form, six sources, contact, feeling, birth, and ageing and death.  From these seven, again, the three delusions develop: ignorance, craving and grasping.  In this manner, the chain interlocks and samsara is established in perpetual motion.

Dondrup,

Hence, further the main practice to break this chain is the practices that are direct anti dotes to craving and grasping ie Renunciation, Boddhicitta and and Wisdom. The root of these are the reliance on a Guru with devotion. Ultimately, all Buddha's teachings are focus on the realization of the non-self and of phenomena.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2015, 02:49:34 PM »
Nagarjuna says in Essence of Dependent Relationship,

From three develop two;
From two develop seven;
From seven develop three.

Hence, from the three delusions – ignorance, craving and grasping, two actions develop: compositional actions and existence.  From these two actions, seven fruits of suffering develop: consciousness, name and form, six sources, contact, feeling, birth, and ageing and death.  From these seven, again, the three delusions develop: ignorance, craving and grasping.  In this manner, the chain interlocks and samsara is established in perpetual motion.

Dondrup,

Hence, further the main practice to break this chain is the practices that are direct anti dotes to craving and grasping ie Renunciation, Boddhicitta and and Wisdom. The root of these are the reliance on a Guru with devotion. Ultimately, all Buddha's teachings are focus on the realization of the non-self and of phenomena.

This is a good summarisation of all the contribution and sharing.  For the importance of a Guru, all Vajrayana doctrine takes refuge first in the Guru.

Namo Guru Beh
Namo Buddha Ya
Namo Dharma ya
Namo Sangha ya.

As such all realisation towards renunciation, bodhichitta and wisdom is from the teachings of our Guru.

eyesoftara

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 10:42:46 AM »
The twelve interdependent links is a practice to be understood and antidote applied for both the medium and great scope practitioners. It is for the practitioners to break the chain of cyclic existence via the the antidotes to attachment  and Ignorance thus also breaking the effect of "becoming" which is the existence of the self in whatever of the 3 realms of Cyclic Existence (formless, form and desire realm).
The antidotes are Renunciation and Wisdom which result one to be Liberated or attain Omniscience if one only practice Boddhicitta.

Midakpa

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 01:13:09 PM »
When we let feeling develop into craving, it is too late. The trick is to let go at the level of feeling. Then it just remains as a feeling. Acknowledge it and let it go, like a cloud that passes in the sky.

Matibhadra

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 02:15:39 PM »
Quote
"Ignorance"  cannot be defined as "the absence of wisdom".

Wrong. The very word “ignorance” means lack or absence of knowledge or wisdom or awareness (“in” = not + “gnarus” = aware). Exactly the same applies to the Tibetan “ma rig pa” and to the Sanskrit avidyaa, both meaning precisely lack or absence of knowledge or wisdom or awareness.

Quote
"Ignorance" is defined as ignorance of "the more subtle levels of cause and effect and ignorance of the view of selflessness" (p. 97, 'The Four Noble Truths' by Geshe Tashi Tsering).

To start with, Geshe Tashi Tsering is not saying that such is the definition of ignorance. This is you wrongly putting in his mouth. Indeed, it would be very stupid to define ignorance as ignorance of this or that; the defined term can never be part of the definition.

Geshe Tashi Tsering is not “defining” ignorance, but just referring to rather different types of ignorance.

Indeed, the ignorance of the more subtle levels of cause and effect affects even tenth ground bodhisattvas, way beyond samsara. On the other hand, the ignorance of the view of selflessness does not affect even ordinary bodhisattvas, since without the view of selflessness they cannot even enter the bodhisattva path of accumulation. Bodhisattvas on the path of accumulation and preparation are affected by the ignorance not seeing selflessness in a non-conceptual way.

In any case, ignorance is always the lack or absence of knowledge, or wisdom, or awareness. A tenth ground bodhisattva lacks the wisdom realizing the more subtle levels of cause and effect; an ordinary bodhisattva lacks the wisdom non-conceptually realizing selflessness; and someone who did not enter a hinayana or mahayana path of accumulation lacks even the wisdom understanding the view of selflessess.

Quote
Pabongka  Rinpoche in 'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.465) defines "ignorance" as " the blindness of not seeing the nature or mode of existence of something like ..cause and effect " and "the ultimate nature of reality".

Exactly. “Blindness” means lack of sight, which is lack of wisdom. “Not seeing” also means lack of sight or of wisdom. Ignorance is necessarily a lack or absence. You have made an argument against yourself.

Matibhadra

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Re: The relationship between three interdependent links.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2015, 03:16:02 PM »
Quote
Geshe Tashi Tsering is not “defining” ignorance, but just referring to rather different types of ignorance.

None of which, by the way, is the very specific type of ignorance which is the first of the twelve links of dependent arising.