Author Topic: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above  (Read 7629 times)

christine V

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Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« on: December 19, 2012, 03:13:39 AM »
Dulzin Dorje Shugden and Guru Rinpoche (better quality) Small | Large


I found in you tube about this Dorje Shugden Thangka- It has Guru Rinpoche directly above Dorje Shugden, surrounding them are various well known Yidams propitiated by the Nyingmapa and by Gelugpa.
Why is this Thangka exist? This mean Dorje Shugden has been practice by various sect of Buddhism. Why does the ban is on when Dorje Shugden is widely practice by the high lamas. Does it mean the high lamas of various sect are wrong? 

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 07:16:46 AM »
Dulzin Dorje Shugden and Guru Rinpoche (better quality)

I found in you tube about this Dorje Shugden Thangka- It has Guru Rinpoche directly above Dorje Shugden, surrounding them are various well known Yidams propitiated by the Nyingmapa and by Gelugpa.
Why is this Thangka exist? This mean Dorje Shugden has been practice by various sect of Buddhism. Why does the ban is on when Dorje Shugden is widely practice by the high lamas. Does it mean the high lamas of various sect are wrong?


Because Dorje Shugden was never sectarian to start with. He exists in every tradition. There is also a Nyingma Terma of Dorje Shugden, identifying him with the one who is the same as Chenresig. In the Sakya tradition he has been around there for a long time and since he is the same lineage as Virupa's lineage, it is safe to say that he is the founder of the Sakya tradition and he has reincarnated many times there as well, as recent as the current Sakya Trinzin's father. Therefore, its not surprising at all if Dorje Shugden appears in other lineages as a protector. Just because he has promised to protect Gelug does not mean he will exclude the other traditions.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »
By the very nature of who Dorje Shugden is – a Buddha – it means that Dorje Shugden would not discriminate against any sentient being, let alone Buddhists from different traditions. If Dorje Shugden was biased toward the Gelugpa, he would not have equanimity and therefore would not be an enlightened being.

The fact that it was not only the Gelugpa who declared Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being shows that there was never any schismatic quality to Dorje Shugden. Different high lamas from different traditions across the centuries have acknowledged his status. HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself has acknowledged that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. If the 14th Dalai Lama was wrong about that recognition, surely he can be wrong about his declaration that Dorje Shugden is a spirit now.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Namdrol

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 04:56:05 AM »
Well, you can say that since there is claim that Lama Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche's incarnation, putting Guru Rinpoche on top of Dorje Shugden in the same as putting Lama Tsongkhapa on top, which is the tradition because Dorje Shugden is always depicted as being under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne.

It could also be that this is an old thangka, and back then Dorje Shugden is not an issue, or the maker of this thangka simply wanted to make a Guru, Yidam and Potector thangka, without anything sectarian in mind. It is nice that way.

christine V

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 06:42:06 AM »
Dulzin Dorje Shugden and Guru Rinpoche (better quality)

I found in you tube about this Dorje Shugden Thangka- It has Guru Rinpoche directly above Dorje Shugden, surrounding them are various well known Yidams propitiated by the Nyingmapa and by Gelugpa.
Why is this Thangka exist? This mean Dorje Shugden has been practice by various sect of Buddhism. Why does the ban is on when Dorje Shugden is widely practice by the high lamas. Does it mean the high lamas of various sect are wrong?


Because Dorje Shugden was never sectarian to start with. He exists in every tradition. There is also a Nyingma Terma of Dorje Shugden, identifying him with the one who is the same as Chenresig. In the Sakya tradition he has been around there for a long time and since he is the same lineage as Virupa's lineage, it is safe to say that he is the founder of the Sakya tradition and he has reincarnated many times there as well, as recent as the current Sakya Trinzin's father. Therefore, its not surprising at all if Dorje Shugden appears in other lineages as a protector. Just because he has promised to protect Gelug does not mean he will exclude the other traditions.


Ensapa, this is a good knowledge for me. I do not know that Dorje Shugden is in other traditions as well.
Seeing this facts, with this ban, i think is not fair not only to Gelug but other lineages too. Forcing the practitioner seem to practice something new and illegal. I hopes this ban will be lift faster to return the justice

dsiluvu

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 07:38:01 AM »
Well, you can say that since there is claim that Lama Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche's incarnation, putting Guru Rinpoche on top of Dorje Shugden in the same as putting Lama Tsongkhapa on top, which is the tradition because Dorje Shugden is always depicted as being under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne.

It could also be that this is an old thangka, and back then Dorje Shugden is not an issue, or the maker of this thangka simply wanted to make a Guru, Yidam and Potector thangka, without anything sectarian in mind. It is nice that way.


True I was just thinking that... and also if Dorje Shugden was a evil demon that is out there to destroy... why oh why is he staying under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne??? Is Lama Tsongkhapa protecting him? It is hilarious to think further... it would make no utter sense at all.

The video is a clear proof that those we the good old days when Dorje Shugden was not an issue, not labelled to be sectarian and there are even accounts of when an oracle of DOrje Shugden, Choyang Kuten Lama who as a well respected and recognised oracle back in those days, would take trance of Dorje Shugden and people from different sects came to ask for his help/blessings too.

Please Read: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/



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I stayed at Buxa for ten years at the request of the officials of His Holiness and served as an oracle. Whenever there was a major decision to be made I was consulted, irrespective of any tradition posing the questions. [/b]


Quote
During my tenure as Secretary I worked very hard for obtaining the funds for the monks’ quarters, not only for Ganden but also for Drepung, and the Nyingma and Sakya monks as well [that doesn’t sound very sectarian].


Quote
During my tenure as Vice-President of the R.S.T.M., I took the heavy responsibility of announcing to the Tibetan public in Mundgod the various speeches given by his holiness the Dalai Lama and other official announcements. The Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies has given me a certificate for my work. In short, I have been engaged in this active public life, not just living as an oracle. I have tried to contribute as much as possible in many different ways because the situation of the Tibetan Community is very weak. All the responsibility has fallen on His Holiness alone, so I thought it was very important for each individual to make as much contribution as they could.
[/size]

So now basically the anti-Shugdenpas are saying he has suddenly turn to be a separatist, how can a BUddha nature turn the opposite way? Then why on earth are we practicing for? which is ridiculous and we all know that it is NOT TRUE. 

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 09:40:20 AM »
This is so interesting to know that other schools of Tibetan Buddhist also worship Dorje Shugden. It is very clear that Dorje Shugden is really an enlightened being as opposed to the allegation that he is a spirit. I have also read this article and would like to share this:

The 16th Karmapa became visibly angry and demanded that the statue be removed. He then gave the following prediction to the Nyingmas at the monastery: “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him”. There were many lamas present at that time who witnessed this event and this incident has also been recorded down in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s sungbum.

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?

So, if other schools of Tibetan Buddhist also practice DS, are their monks and practitioners also ostracized ?

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 12:11:15 PM »

True I was just thinking that... and also if Dorje Shugden was a evil demon that is out there to destroy... why oh why is he staying under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne??? Is Lama Tsongkhapa protecting him? It is hilarious to think further... it would make no utter sense at all.

The video is a clear proof that those we the good old days when Dorje Shugden was not an issue, not labelled to be sectarian and there are even accounts of when an oracle of DOrje Shugden, Choyang Kuten Lama who as a well respected and recognised oracle back in those days, would take trance of Dorje Shugden and people from different sects came to ask for his help/blessings too.

Please Read: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/



Quote
I stayed at Buxa for ten years at the request of the officials of His Holiness and served as an oracle. Whenever there was a major decision to be made I was consulted, irrespective of any tradition posing the questions. [/b]


Quote
During my tenure as Secretary I worked very hard for obtaining the funds for the monks’ quarters, not only for Ganden but also for Drepung, and the Nyingma and Sakya monks as well [that doesn’t sound very sectarian].


Quote
During my tenure as Vice-President of the R.S.T.M., I took the heavy responsibility of announcing to the Tibetan public in Mundgod the various speeches given by his holiness the Dalai Lama and other official announcements. The Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies has given me a certificate for my work. In short, I have been engaged in this active public life, not just living as an oracle. I have tried to contribute as much as possible in many different ways because the situation of the Tibetan Community is very weak. All the responsibility has fallen on His Holiness alone, so I thought it was very important for each individual to make as much contribution as they could.
[/size]

So now basically the anti-Shugdenpas are saying he has suddenly turn to be a separatist, how can a BUddha nature turn the opposite way? Then why on earth are we practicing for? which is ridiculous and we all know that it is NOT TRUE.


The anti Shugdenpas are a perfect example of people who have gone down the road of blind faith and of believing without investigation that the Buddha strongly advised against, and also what the Dalai Lama has been advising all along. If the Dalai Lama advised people to investigate before believing and then says Dorje Shugden is bad, who is he targeting but his own followers? Because it is pretty clear that those who practice Dorje Shugden have investigated their own lamas and therefore take the words of their Lamas as their Dharma practice so why are the Dalai Lama's followers not listening to him on that?

vajratruth

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 08:06:34 AM »

The video is a clear proof that those we the good old days when Dorje Shugden was not an issue, not labelled to be sectarian and there are even accounts of when an oracle of DOrje Shugden, Choyang Kuten Lama who as a well respected and recognised oracle back in those days, would take trance of Dorje Shugden and people from different sects came to ask for his help/blessings too.

Please Read: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/



Thank you for this post dsiluvu. I think what you have here is of the greatest importance. The autobiography of Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama not only shows that Dorje Shugden is not sectarian but has also been proven not to be a spirit.

All the procedures Choyang Kuten went through from the strict purifications exercises to the series of observations and examinations over a period of four years  were observed by so many high lamas such as Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Purbuchok Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Purchog Jamgong Rinpoche, Kyabje Tadak Rinpohce and finally before the whole assembly of the prestigious Shartse Monastery. The singular objective of all those test were to determine if what Choyang Kuten was taking possession of, was a spirit or a Dharmapala. If Dorje Shugden is merely a spirit he would not have passed all the tests and would have been caught out, if not by the lama then by Setrap Chen himself, as emanation of Buddha Amitabha. For Dorje Shugden to be a spirit but passed off as a Dhamapala would have to be a conspiracy of enormous proportions that involved virtually all the high lamas at that time as well as Setrap. This is such a ridiculous allegation. That would also mean that Gaden Shartse is spiritually corrupt as is the Dharma Protector Setrap.

Look carefully at the account of the final test:

"As part of the ceremony slips of paper were rolled into pills, one saying that the possessing being was Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, another saying that it was a being who could not gain rebirth from bardo (intermediate) state.

There were another three slips of paper rolled into pills for the Dharmapala Setrap. When I went into trance I was offered the first set of pills. I immediately took and ate the one referring to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. The same test was made of the Dharmapala Setrap. At that time I threw the other two pills away and pointed to the one left – the one referring to Dharmapala Setrap. Up to that point I had still not been convinced, but this was the final and conclusive test. I was then approved of as an oracle
of the two dharmapalas, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Setrap. So, the authenticity of the oracle was tested by rigorous means".



Extremely vigorous testing of the authenticity of the oracle was also an intense examination of the nature of the possessing being. It means that if Dorje Shugden is a spirit, the testing of the authenticity of the oracle that takes trance of a Dharmapa would have failed. And yet it passed and the Dorje Shugden oracle went on to help many people regardless of sects.

Finally, conclusive proof that Dorje Shugden is an enlightenedn Protector is seen by the same oracle whp takes trance of an undisputed enlightened being, the Dharmapala Setrap. If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, then can Setrap share the same oracle as an evil spirit? Who would trust Setrap then? And seeing that Setrap is also in Dorje Shugden's entourage, does that mean Setrap is also an evil spirit? The allegations against Dorje Shugden has reached absurdities that are beyond idiotic proportions. If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, shouldn't Shartse close down immediately for failing to detect an evil spirit and having another one as its Protector? Enough already, don't you think CTA?

« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 08:12:21 AM by vajratruth »

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden 's Thangkha with Guru Rinpoche directly above
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 11:27:52 AM »
Quote
Finally, conclusive proof that Dorje Shugden is an enlightenedn Protector is seen by the same oracle whp takes trance of an undisputed enlightened being, the Dharmapala Setrap. If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, then can Setrap share the same oracle as an evil spirit? Who would trust Setrap then? And seeing that Setrap is also in Dorje Shugden's entourage, does that mean Setrap is also an evil spirit? The allegations against Dorje Shugden has reached absurdities that are beyond idiotic proportions. If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, shouldn't Shartse close down immediately for failing to detect an evil spirit and having another one as its Protector? Enough already, don't you think CTA?

Again, another logical conclusion to why Dorje Shugden is not a spirit. If Dharamsala still wants to assert that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, they would have to stop the entire oracle tradition altogether because the oracle can also take trance of Dorje Shugden, and if the oracle can take trance of a 'negative' being, how can he take trance of other positive beings? That itself is a perplexing mystery on its own, unless of course if we accept a mountain of absurd reasonings as what did Trijang Rinpoche said about this ban. I personally find it astounding on how so many people could blindly accept some really weak reasonings against Dorje Shudgden.