Author Topic: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy  (Read 10485 times)

psylotripitaka

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Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« on: October 10, 2012, 09:07:28 PM »
Greetings All,

Some wild toothless dakini with disheveled hair suggested I share on this forum, so naturally I must obey! I bow low to her, tipping my hat with a long swoop of the arm, and touch my crown to her lotus feet! xo

I'm not sure if this is already a topic, I don't have much time to research it. I would like to share some dialogue on how to not only overcome negative thoughts and feelings that arise in response to the controversy, but also the subject of pure view as it relates. I have witnessed how destructive the controversy has been to peoples lives (from both camps) and my intention here is to help you heal that shit! Your thoughts are most welcome.

Mainly, the bottom line for me is that the meaning of life is realization, and everything we experience/perceive must be used to support the cultivation of deep realization; must elicit realization as a response. If we decide that this is the meaning of our life; that everything is a support for realization; that in the bigger picture the only thing really going on is a dialogue between us, and the Guru. Mahasiddha Kelsang Gyatso once said that great compassion is required to attain enlightenment, and that the appearance of suffering living beings is required as the object of that compassion. He said that nobody followed this up by asking him 'what if you are the only sentient being left?' He replied that for that last sentient being, the Guru would emanate an entire world system and its contents; that he would emanate the appearance of suffering living beings for that one last sentient being to have a objects for generating universal compassion.

So, if we believe that the only thing that is ever appearing to us, regardless of what it looks like, it is only a dialogue between me and the Guru. The Guru is asking us to use every appearance as a support for realization, but over and over again we don't do this. So as it relates to this controversy, it is rocket fuel for many different realizations, but if you don't bring the rocket to mind how can you use the fuel! Mindfulness and attention is required!

This must be the bottom line for everyone, because the whole point of having a relationship with Dharma, the reason Buddha taught, was to gain realization, to end suffering. So we must be careful in our approach to appearances making sure we do not get caught and swept out into the stormy see of negative minds.

If we are suffering alot from the situation, like any contemplation of the fact we are unceasingly tormented by the three sufferings, if we are reduced to sobbing, we must at least in retrospect use that experience to emotionalize the Dharma for ourself, thereby personalizing it and bringing it to the heart where it belongs. One side of renunciation observes the predicament, the other observes the solution and is delighted. Your sobs and heartache must elicit renunciation of contaminated aggregates within you. If it doesn't, if the controversy only elicits negatives, you are wasting a golden opportunity to join the society of intergalactic space-enjoyers who have manifested this whole appearance just for you to develop realization. That is the only reason it is appearing to your mind!

Even this dialogue is for me a dialogue with you precious Lama inseparable from the nature of my own perception. Thank you again for giving me the opportunity to go deeper into the only thing that matters when all is said and done.


Ensapa

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2012, 12:18:51 PM »
For me, the controversy only helped me identify Buddhists who are not sincere in the teachings and helped strengthen the resolve of those who want to follow the footsteps of their teacher. If we look at the mind training teachings, these conditions would be the greatest condition for us to practice Dharma in the first place! But of course, it is not the same for everyone and some of them face tremendous and unnecessary hardship just because of their choice in teachers and traditions. There are monks expelled from monasteries, and even old and blind monks who have done nothing but serve the sangha get kicked out of the monastery just for holding on to their Guru samaya and not giving up the practice. People whose homes are torn down and destroyed and they get ostracized from their community just because they follow their spiritual guide all the way and hold on to the spiritual guide's instructions all the way....all of these are not necessary and its bad not only for those who are experiencing it, but also bad for the people who inflict it to them.

But for the rest of us who are not that affected by the ban until that happens, the ban is a very sharp tool in checking our motivations and to see who is really sincere in Dharma practice. Obviously we should avoid the political ones.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2012, 03:38:32 PM »
Ensapa, thank you for sharing. I am acutely of the intricate web of sufferings involved with this situation, and while my intention in writing was not to appear naive or dismissive of the incredible sufferings of those effected so directly, I firmly believe that what I have said applies to everybody. I do understand that everyone is in a different place internally; that transformation is easier said than done; that the wave of delusions can sometimes be too overwhelming. That is why I say 'at least in retrospect' with regard to transforming the situation. My post is an effort to encourage people that regardless of how much we are suffering, to keep making an effort to use our experiences to grow spiritually.

They say the reason a human life is generally perfect for practicing Dharma as opposed to say, hell, is that our suffering is not so overwhelming that we can't focus; that we have enough respite from gross manifest pain that we can concentrate on the teachings. I realize that some of the particular situations practitioners face are like a resembling hell, so of course it may be very difficult. But, I recall stories such as Ribur Rinpoche being tortured in a chinese prison, and when asked if he was afraid replied the thing he most feared was losing his mind of love for the people torturing him. Regardless of what is going on, if we at least try to regard it as fuel for realization it will be a doorway for blessings to say hello.

For those not directly effected by things such as beatings or shrine destruction and such, my post is aimed at the views that bring them down, and the negative actions of body and speech that follow.

As for your comment about checking who is sincere, this touches on how to deal with conventions in a practical manner while maintaining certain Dharma views. Obviously, compassion, patience, love are all obvious. I am referring to other points such as:

It is said that we cannot tell from the actions of a person whether or not they are a bodhisattva, because Dharma is mainly a mind training. This is also said of Buddhas, and it is also said of what appear to be ordinary people. The Masters say that unless we are a Buddha or highly realized Bodhisattva, we only know who we are. Thus, it follows that we do not know for sure who is or is not a "sincere" practitioner. I am talking about our view, acknowledging that the fact is, regardless of a persons actions, we do not know for sure who they really are. But, if they appear to us to contradict Buddhas teachings and that disturbs our mind, of course we should distance ourself in order to cultivate correct view and intention. But, if we are strong enough, we can be around situations that test us more. It says in Dorje Shugden kangso that he appears even as strongly deluded or insane beings in order to tame living beings. This supports my view that he is manifesting appearances for one reason - to stimulate realization in the mind of the person perceiving the intense appearance.

We can also get into Lama Zopa's comments about pure view in his introduction to the new anti-protector book. How to keep pure view while taking practical actions in response to conventions. I am sincerely interesting in discussing this topic.

Did you know that the meaning of making wrathful offerings is to create the cause to transform the appearance of the most hellish experiences into an experience of bliss and emptiness. Because that is how the Protectors experience those offerings, it follows.

Regardless of what appears, it forever remains a chance to accomplish spiritual realization.

Ensapa

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »
As for your comment about checking who is sincere, this touches on how to deal with conventions in a practical manner while maintaining certain Dharma views. Obviously, compassion, patience, love are all obvious. I am referring to other points such as:

It is said that we cannot tell from the actions of a person whether or not they are a bodhisattva, because Dharma is mainly a mind training. This is also said of Buddhas, and it is also said of what appear to be ordinary people. The Masters say that unless we are a Buddha or highly realized Bodhisattva, we only know who we are. Thus, it follows that we do not know for sure who is or is not a "sincere" practitioner. I am talking about our view, acknowledging that the fact is, regardless of a persons actions, we do not know for sure who they really are. But, if they appear to us to contradict Buddhas teachings and that disturbs our mind, of course we should distance ourself in order to cultivate correct view and intention. But, if we are strong enough, we can be around situations that test us more. It says in Dorje Shugden kangso that he appears even as strongly deluded or insane beings in order to tame living beings. This supports my view that he is manifesting appearances for one reason - to stimulate realization in the mind of the person perceiving the intense appearance.

Not really. On a conventional level, we can check if someone is sincere or not by their actions and by how they act and react to things, and wether or not they are consistent in something. As none of us are qualified to go for the higher view yet, we'll need to operate from this view. If it says in the commitments for Guru devotion to disassociate from bad company that deride your Guru or tradition, one can argue that these individuals are just manifestations to 'test' you or teach you a lesson, so it is ok to hang out with them, but not according to the commitment. So on our level, it is pretty clear which view we should adopt.

Did you know that the meaning of making wrathful offerings is to create the cause to transform the appearance of the most hellish experiences into an experience of bliss and emptiness. Because that is how the Protectors experience those offerings, it follows.
Thanks, I have no idea that it means that.

Regardless of what appears, it forever remains a chance to accomplish spiritual realization.
Taking suffering as the path is what the Kadams would have said.

Thanks for your sharing. Your voice here in this forum is refreshing as always. Hope to see you around more!

dsnowlion

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 10:28:14 PM »
Greeting psylotripitaka.... and welcome to the forum where Dorje Shugden practitioners voice is heard and shared.

What you say about appearances and how everything in a nut shell helps us to realise or learn something is no doubt true. However, for the many who has not reach that level of understanding and realisation like what Ensapa has mentioned... they need the guidance and at the moment even if it means being to identity the what so called "right" and so called "wrong" needs to analysed with logic! Logic is the only key for us to keep up with the insainity of the cammotions of this world... hence Lord Buddha, manjushri and Je Tsongkhapa thought us to "THINK" and to cultivate that pure equanimity light that is innate in our nature ~ compassion :)

Definitely once we have achieved the above all things seen, felt and experiences becomes natural nectars of realisation not to say what we experience now as we thred the path of learning we don't realise anything.. but to a certain dose... and it would be again different doses for different people. Depending of that thing we call "karma" as everyone's karma is different ya (the basis of it all).

Yes agree we need to see even in negative situations such as this illogical Ban we must remain firm in our devotion, practice of compassion and wisdom in order to react negatively but positively... exactly what Trijang Dorje Chang mentioned in Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/kyabje-trijang-rinpoches-works-and-autobiography/   and our Lord Dharmapala has adviced us to not take any sides..... after all it could all just an illusory play :)

Hence the motto or motivation of this website here speaks....CONTEMPLATE THIS…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Invite them, teach them, slowly and give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the practice assuming it is ‘wrong’. Wouldn’t that be a Buddhistic approach to all ‘wrong-doers’?  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/about/contemplate-this/

dsnowlion

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2012, 10:38:10 PM »
Hi Psylotripitaka,

In regards to the topic on Lama Zopa Lama Zopa's comments about pure view in his introduction to the new anti-protector book.... you can go to the following thread that has been much discussed POV on this matter...

Topic: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2537.0

and the below thread might also be of interest to you....

Lama Zopa himself admitted being recognized by Dorje Shugden
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2547.0

Articles that may be of interest to you if you have not already ventured... Who made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/

Happy reading and sharing :)

psylotripitaka

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 08:18:36 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

I would point out your remarks:  "none of us are qualified to go for the higher view yet", and, "so on our level, it is pretty clear which view we should adopt".

My point - which has been said by the Masters - that we do not know who others really are unless we have high realization is not necessarily a "higher view". It is a very basic view that is humble enough to acknowledge that we do not know. This humility understands that we do not know who is and isn't qualified, and that everyone is not on the same level though it may appear so to ordinary mundane perceptions. In other words, your broad statements do not acknowledge the various levels of practitioner.

I would also point out in the context tantric pure view vs ordinary conception, we have this sense that others are definitely ordinary, and that they see us as ordinary, and in our contemplation somehow conclude from this that others make it difficult for us to maintain pure view of ourself because they have ordinary view of us. Looking carefully, we realize that it is our own ordinary conception that others are ordinary holding us to be ordinary that locks us into ordinary conception. It is our own view. Luckily, because there is no real phenomena there from the objects side, we have freedom to create our reality through our view. New scientific discoveries are beginning to prove this.

I believe that you missed my point. While I agree that we can check a persons sincerity as you say, I am making the point that the reality is we do not know for sure what their intentions are even though it may appear to definitely be a certain way to our ordinary mistaken appearance. I am not saying we do not take actions based on normal conventions, such as distancing ourself as you say, but it is an important spiritual step that we acknowledge we do not know for sure. Why is it important?

Because by doing so we are opening up to the correct view of emptiness, we are opening the doorway to faith in the skillful means of Buddhas, we are stepping through the gateway to the higher view that abandons ordinary conceptions. This is how we can begin to see the controversy as the skillful means of Manjushri and Chenrezig, that the base line is they are trying to liberate us by giving us experiences that are meant to help us grow spiritually.

I know for some people this is very difficult, that the suffering is too intense, that some people may not yet have the ability to practice like this, however, my point remains that every moment is a new opportunity to try.

If you repeatedly keep blaming uncontrolled rebirth in contaminated aggregates for all your problems, through familiarity you will come to acknowledge that more deeply. Something will shift, and with that view you will begin to really get fed up and long for permanent freedom. It is very contrived at first, but Dharma practice is not really complicated. When you see, hear, or think about other living beings, if you immediately say 'this is my mother' over and over, it will really begin to function. It is all simply a matter of familiarity through simple repetitious application.

In other words, I do not agree that we must wait to respond to experiences with realization. That is procrastination. People may be too overwhelmed, but if in that space they get a blessing to try, even a little, to repeatedly think a Dharma train of thought, it will begin to shed light, and the realization will begin to vibrate more strongly and function to reduce their suffering. You can't force people, of course, but you can certainly encourage them.

As for 'right' and 'wrong', I agree certain actions need to be taken. What I am here to encourage is that people try to put all these experiences into the context of realization. Taking the medicine of Dharma is over-complicated by our human nature to over-think, when really its as easy as repeating a phrase in relation to an appearance, over and over and over. It works, even when our pain is deep. It sometimes just takes that one person telling us we have more power than we give ourselves credit. We have people constantly telling us we're at a low level, we're lazy and pathetic. If they were telling us we are powerful, we can do it, what would that do?

My retreat Master once said: "you develop faith by having it!" If you decide a crazy person is actually an emanation of Dorje Shugden and have deep faith in that decision, though you may work with the conventional appearance accordingly, you will receive very powerful blessings. It is a decision that if repeated over and over will begin to function. We can wallow in self-pity constantly victimizing and disempowering ourself, or having received encouragement, make a simple decision to try a new perception. Try.

Ensapa

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 03:03:39 PM »
Dear Ensapa,

I would point out your remarks:  "none of us are qualified to go for the higher view yet", and, "so on our level, it is pretty clear which view we should adopt".

My point - which has been said by the Masters - that we do not know who others really are unless we have high realization is not necessarily a "higher view". It is a very basic view that is humble enough to acknowledge that we do not know. This humility understands that we do not know who is and isn't qualified, and that everyone is not on the same level though it may appear so to ordinary mundane perceptions. In other words, your broad statements do not acknowledge the various levels of practitioner.
Agreed

I would also point out in the context tantric pure view vs ordinary conception, we have this sense that others are definitely ordinary, and that they see us as ordinary, and in our contemplation somehow conclude from this that others make it difficult for us to maintain pure view of ourself because they have ordinary view of us. Looking carefully, we realize that it is our own ordinary conception that others are ordinary holding us to be ordinary that locks us into ordinary conception. It is our own view. Luckily, because there is no real phenomena there from the objects side, we have freedom to create our reality through our view. New scientific discoveries are beginning to prove this.
Shantideva and the 8 verses of transforming the mind as well as the teachings on Bodhicitta says that all other beings are not ordinary. I'd go with the sutra view....

I believe that you missed my point. While I agree that we can check a persons sincerity as you say, I am making the point that the reality is we do not know for sure what their intentions are even though it may appear to definitely be a certain way to our ordinary mistaken appearance. I am not saying we do not take actions based on normal conventions, such as distancing ourself as you say, but it is an important spiritual step that we acknowledge we do not know for sure. Why is it important?
yeah but your point's next step will lead to not taking actions based on normal conventions....so...?

Because by doing so we are opening up to the correct view of emptiness, we are opening the doorway to faith in the skillful means of Buddhas, we are stepping through the gateway to the higher view that abandons ordinary conceptions. This is how we can begin to see the controversy as the skillful means of Manjushri and Chenrezig, that the base line is they are trying to liberate us by giving us experiences that are meant to help us grow spiritually.
This I agree

I know for some people this is very difficult, that the suffering is too intense, that some people may not yet have the ability to practice like this, however, my point remains that every moment is a new opportunity to try.
Well, there are those of us who are in western countries and the only suffering we get is we are prevented from entering a FPMT center...

If you repeatedly keep blaming uncontrolled rebirth in contaminated aggregates for all your problems, through familiarity you will come to acknowledge that more deeply. Something will shift, and with that view you will begin to really get fed up and long for permanent freedom. It is very contrived at first, but Dharma practice is not really complicated. When you see, hear, or think about other living beings, if you immediately say 'this is my mother' over and over, it will really begin to function. It is all simply a matter of familiarity through simple repetitious application.
In the old days, to gain this, yogis and siddhas meditate in graveyards. These days we can meditate in the ICU in a hospital and see for ourselves the pain of not being able to control our deaths.

In other words, I do not agree that we must wait to respond to experiences with realization. That is procrastination. People may be too overwhelmed, but if in that space they get a blessing to try, even a little, to repeatedly think a Dharma train of thought, it will begin to shed light, and the realization will begin to vibrate more strongly and function to reduce their suffering. You can't force people, of course, but you can certainly encourage them.
I got lost at respond to experiences....

As for 'right' and 'wrong', I agree certain actions need to be taken. What I am here to encourage is that people try to put all these experiences into the context of realization. Taking the medicine of Dharma is over-complicated by our human nature to over-think, when really its as easy as repeating a phrase in relation to an appearance, over and over and over. It works, even when our pain is deep. It sometimes just takes that one person telling us we have more power than we give ourselves credit. We have people constantly telling us we're at a low level, we're lazy and pathetic. If they were telling us we are powerful, we can do it, what would that do?
umm...boost our ego and make us stop practicing?

My retreat Master once said: "you develop faith by having it!" If you decide a crazy person is actually an emanation of Dorje Shugden and have deep faith in that decision, though you may work with the conventional appearance accordingly, you will receive very powerful blessings. It is a decision that if repeated over and over will begin to function. We can wallow in self-pity constantly victimizing and disempowering ourself, or having received encouragement, make a simple decision to try a new perception. Try.
that is a very nice way to handle problematic people! thanks for the suggestion!

Interesting views there :) I see your point, trust me, but i'm just poking at your loose ends :P i wanna see how you respond to them

psylotripitaka

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 03:56:49 AM »
Ensapa

I wrote: We have people constantly telling us we're at a low level, we're lazy and pathetic. If they were telling us we are powerful, we can do it, what would that do?

You replied: umm...boost our ego and make us stop practicing?

Just to clarify, while it is very important to be honest with ourself, there is a danger of needless self-reproach, and in particular the tendency to grasp at mistaken conceptions of ourself can be reinforced. If we constantly conceive ourself to be a pathetic practitioner, this will remain a huge obstacle holding us back from making progress that would otherwise happen if we were more encouraged. Encouraged to recognize the good qualities we do have, the progress that we have made, the karmic potentials we must have waiting to ripen to have been born with the fortunate connection we have. In other words, my meaning is that while it is important to make sure we do not go off the deep end of arrogance, it seems to me there is a need for practitioners to be more empowered, to acknowledge the wisdom they do have, and encourage them to focus on wishing faith in order to develop the good qualities of realization.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 05:23:46 AM »
This topic also relates to the thread on Jealous of Gelugs, maybe the one on Lama Zopa's new introduction too, and of course, the controversy.

Throughout the history of Tibetan Buddhism we find conflict between schools. Various Masters even use terms like "enemy camp", or include harsh words about other traditions in their commentaries or initiation texts. There seems to have been alot of jealousy and anger due to the rise to power of the Gelug tradition in particular. Makes sense, someone else comes around and draws the attention of your students and patrons, there's bound to be conflict. I must admit that this subject has been a difficult one for me to work with over the years.

My first thought, is why is it necessary to say these things, especially in the context of an empowerment? Why is it necessary to praise how our tradition is 'more qualified' or 'much more profound' than that lineage? A comparison using others to make us feel better about our own path seems completely unnecessary. If our lineage is so profound, surely it speaks for itself without the need to compare to others, never mind go as far as to speak in a derogatory way about others. Even this controversy about Dorje Shugden - forget all the reasons he is or isn't a spirit or Manjushri and all the extensive information about the history, the bottom line is the loss of respect for basic human and religious rights. Like, what's the big deal people, just do your thing and let others do theirs. You're so worked up about this supernatural being that you are willing to destroy the lives of others and the faith of practitioners, not to mention the general respect that Buddhism has in the general population?

When we read these things or hear of these types of conflicts between what are supposed to be Masters, it is easy to get discouraged and feel that our lineage Masters must not be realized if they do not appear to maintain basic loving kindness and respect for others. When the people who are meant to have achieved these high realizations engage in actions that apparently contradict the Dharma, it is easy for practitioners to start losing faith in the Dharma, in its power to produce the results it claims to produce. Even in general society, not too long ago there was a surge of interest and respect in the Dharma. I even read things and heard things of how people felt it was the one path on the planet that really had a handle on things, and people had faith. But then, they find out about the controversy, about monks having sex with each other and getting drunk, about ordained sangha who are supposedly realized enough to be a lineage holder destroying their own tradition by abusing their position with sex, about jealousy, fighting, politics, and murder, and so the reputation of the efficacy of Dharma isn't just questioned, it is passed off as 'yep, they have it too', and in this way faith in something that gives hope is destroyed.

This is a crucial thing - the protection of faith. How does a practitioner overcome such a loss of faith in these "Masters", the Dharma, and the community of practitioners? It is important to be clear about it ourselves, but sharing here will also help people struggling to keep their faith, not just in the teachers, but also in the efficacy of the teachings and their own ability to realize them. After all, if a supposedly highly realized person contradicts the teachings and appears to show they do not seem as realized as we thought, how is the average person to gain any confidence that they themselves will ever gain authentic realization?

I have some thoughts about it, things that have helped me, but I would like to hear what others have to say of how they personally work on this within their own consciousness. Thank you.


Ensapa

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 04:28:41 PM »
Ensapa

I wrote: We have people constantly telling us we're at a low level, we're lazy and pathetic. If they were telling us we are powerful, we can do it, what would that do?

You replied: umm...boost our ego and make us stop practicing?

Just to clarify, while it is very important to be honest with ourself, there is a danger of needless self-reproach, and in particular the tendency to grasp at mistaken conceptions of ourself can be reinforced. If we constantly conceive ourself to be a pathetic practitioner, this will remain a huge obstacle holding us back from making progress that would otherwise happen if we were more encouraged. Encouraged to recognize the good qualities we do have, the progress that we have made, the karmic potentials we must have waiting to ripen to have been born with the fortunate connection we have. In other words, my meaning is that while it is important to make sure we do not go off the deep end of arrogance, it seems to me there is a need for practitioners to be more empowered, to acknowledge the wisdom they do have, and encourage them to focus on wishing faith in order to develop the good qualities of realization.

That's why we have a teacher to help give us the right encouragement and to cut us down whenever we go over the line. I would not trust myself but my Guru's judgement of me, that is why he is my Guru. I am extremely fortunate in this life to have found a Guru that not only can cater to my dispositions, but who is kind enough to remain and train me up and has not given up on me despite the many times that I have made mistakes. That is also why it is impossible to practice tantra without a teacher because one will not know what to apply and where. One will also not know what to do or if one's ego is over the line and needs to be controlled, or if one is interpreting the text wrongly, or if one is not ready for the higher practices. Only a teacher/Guru can tell. So to be honest, I leave it all to my Guru to judge me, and thus i'm not judging people to assess their spiritual levels, but to see who to avoid and who to be close with as i do not wish to be dragged down.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 11:39:21 PM »
Well said.

dsiluvu

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 08:08:28 PM »
Ensapa

That's why we have a teacher to help give us the right encouragement and to cut us down whenever we go over the line. I would not trust myself but my Guru's judgement of me, that is why he is my Guru. I am extremely fortunate in this life to have found a Guru that not only can cater to my dispositions, but who is kind enough to remain and train me up and has not given up on me despite the many times that I have made mistakes. That is also why it is impossible to practice tantra without a teacher because one will not know what to apply and where. One will also not know what to do or if one's ego is over the line and needs to be controlled, or if one is interpreting the text wrongly, or if one is not ready for the higher practices. Only a teacher/Guru can tell. So to be honest, I leave it all to my Guru to judge me, and thus i'm not judging people to assess their spiritual levels, but to see who to avoid and who to be close with as i do not wish to be dragged down.

Absolutely agree with you Ensapa. And besides what you have said, I would also like to highlight and add that that is why the practice of 50 verses of Guru Devotion  is so important and must be completely understood by the student when entering a teacher disciple relationship. Thus it is extremely important if anything else in this world, is finding the right spiritual guide for oneself. It should definitely not be through ones whims and fancy when one "feels" the need to go with peer group pressures or because the particular teacher is some popular high Lama sitting on a big throne. Finding the right Guru is crucial, because entering such a relationship is sacred, even more sacred than marriage.

Many often do not realise this and sometimes take refuge due to the heat of the moment and later they drop out or realise that they cannot follow their teacher's methods or because of what they saw their teacher did which clashes with their limited projected concepts, they reject, get dishartened, have doubts and some even starts to say negative things about one's own Guru - this is indeed very sad and totally worng!

Both student and teacher must have checked each other out first before entering the path which is a path not just for this life time but until one achieves "Enlightenment" so this should not be taken lightly like as though we're in a supermarket picking out our Gurus. I've heard many students going here and there to get initiations, they jump in to whatever initiations they come across. Some do not even realise there is commitments and could be dangerous if done incorrectly. So for any new person... I would advice them to read the 50 stanzas, discuss it with a senior so that they understand it well and observe if they can fulfill the requirements and is comforatable to have a student disciple relationship with the particular teacher. Be patient and be honest with oneself.

One way of checking if the teacher is the right one for you is by observing the methods the teacher uses and the results. And ask oneself, can one surrender to this in body, speach and mind... can one accept the raining and not be flippant... like when there is a BAN... okay bye bye teacher, you are suddenly wrong! That is basically what's happening now with this controversy, most unfortunately.   

Big Uncle

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 09:49:13 PM »
Well, back to inner obstacles related to the controversy, I think that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche summarizes it very well in Music Delighting An Ocean of Conquerors when he said this:-

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But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception.

I think Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is very clear about this and although he wrote it before the Dalai Lama came out with the ban, it is clear now that he has foreseen the controversy and the ban. If we really think deeply, the controversy is just about hurting our enemies and helping our friends. That is very practical explanation and to me, it is a rather un-spiritual and un-Buddhist practice to uphold this ban.

dsiluvu

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Re: Removing Inner Obstacles Related to the Controversy
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 08:04:43 PM »
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But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception.

I think Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is very clear about this and although he wrote it before the Dalai Lama came out with the ban, it is clear now that he has foreseen the controversy and the ban. If we really think deeply, the controversy is just about hurting our enemies and helping our friends. That is very practical explanation and to me, it is a rather un-spiritual and un-Buddhist practice to uphold this ban.

Big Uncle I think you mean to say "If we really think deeply, the controversy is NOT about hurting our enemies and helping our friends." Otherwise we would be underestimating the Buddha as Trijang Rinpoche said... " it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external and internal maras without exception."