Author Topic: When is it too much?  (Read 12314 times)

Positive Change

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When is it too much?
« on: July 21, 2012, 11:44:09 AM »
Found this on youtube. Not recent but sort of made me wonder. The video below is of a famous temple in Kanchanaburi and there are nuns there who can 'levitate'.

Now of course I'm never surprised by anything I hear about Thailand, especially if it concerns Buddhism, or what passes for Buddhism in that country. You know, the Phra Arahan who can blow smoke out of his ears, the other one who stands on your passport and can see all your former lives, the one who can see all your future lives without standing on your passport and the temple full of tigers. Then of course there is the beloved old Lung Po somewhere in Ubon whose aphrodisiacal potions have even been investigated by the Viagra company, or so the story goes.

So back to these nuns that can levitate! Well it is actually floating really! What interest or significance there could be in floating? Human fat is lighter than water, air-filled lungs are lighter than water so it really is not all that "mystical" or it is?

Apparently they use the supernatural powers they have developed through meditation to float in a swimming pool-like thing. I use the word 'apparently', not in disbelief that such supernatural powers exist but more a question of why the use of it!

I would have thought that a highly developed meditator would want to avoid celebrity, crowds and self-promotion. Or at least practice some humility. Once again, I am not being disrespectful but am merely questioning why? I do know they charge for the so called "performance" hence it really does sound almost like a freak show and I do not think such supernatural attainments coming from meditational practice should be "abused" in this way. Is it abuse one might ask? What are your thoughts on this?

Here is a passage from the Tipitaka:

"Now it happened that a rich merchant of Rajagaha got a block of expensive, quality sandalwood and he thought, 'Why don’t I have a bowl carved out of this sandalwood. I can keep the off-cuts for myself and the bowl I can give to someone else'. And this is exactly what he did. Then he had a string tied around the bowl and hung it from the top of a long bamboo pole. Having done that he made an announcement, 'Any monk or brahmin, perfected in psychic powers, who can take down this bowl can have it.' Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Gosala, Ajita Kesakambala, Pakudha Kaccayana Sanjaya Belatthiputta and Nigantha Nataputta all tried to get the bowl but none were able to.

Now it so happened that Maha Moggallana and Pindola Bharadvija had gone to Rajagaha and heard about the sandalwood bowl on the top of the pole and Pindola said to Moggallana, 'You are enlightened and you have psychic powers. Get the bowl and it is yours.' But Moggallana replied, 'Pindola, you are enlightened and you have psychic powers. You get the bowl and you can have it.' So Pindola rose off the ground, took the bowl and then circled Rajagaha three times in the air.

Now the rich merchant happened to be standing on the roof of his house with his wife and children (and seeing Pindola) he joined his hands towards him in salutation and said, 'Please land here in my house Venerable Pindola Bharadvaja.' and this Pindola did. The merchant took the bowl from his hands, filled it with expensive food, returned it to him and them Pindola went back to his monastery.

Now people heard about what had happened and noisy excited crowds began following him around. And hearing all this noise the Lord asked what it was about and Ananda told him. Then the Lord convened all the monks, questioned Pindola in front of them, and having been given the details said, 'It is not appropriate, it is not becoming, it is not worthy of a true monk and it should not be done. How could you, Pindola Bharadvaja, in front of householders, display the achievements of spiritually accomplished people for the sake of a miserable wooden bowl? You, Bharadvaja, are like a tart who lifts her dress for the sake of a miserable coin"



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bambi

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 01:32:34 PM »
Below is another part of the story you mentioned below.

After reading it I can safely say that the Buddha do NOT condone showing off any powers BUT if it is done for the greater good then yes. Just like what Buddha did to some of the monks who were chatting idly. Showing off is definitely wrong as we are supposed to be practicing humility and not abusing it. As for the nun who can levitate, I do not know her reasons for doing so and I believe that she have her own motivation for doing so. Maybe she did it to bring people in Buddhism in her area and show them that many years of meditation and practice, one can do so. Another way of showing people to have faith.


Moggallana's most developed faculties were not wisdom but psychic powers (iddhi). When, as a result of meditation, the mind is "concentrated, purified, cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, malleable, workable and firm," it sometimes becomes capable of extraordinary abilities. Some of the psychic powers that Buddhist monks occasionally developed were the ability to change their appearance, being able to sense what was happening a great distance away, being able to read other people's minds and being able to leave the body.

The Buddha knew that the display of psychic powers could have quite an effect upon people, and not always a positive one. Those who displayed such powers could easily be spoiled by the adulation they received, while those who saw such powers displayed often gave unthinking devotion to those who had them. He was also critical of the use of psychic displays to convert people. Once, when the Buddha was staying at Nalanda, one of his disciples said to him: "Lord, Nalanda is rich, prosperous, crowded, full of people who have faith in you. It would be good if you were to get a monk to perform extraordinary feats and miracles. In this way Nalanda would come to have even more faith." The Buddha refused this request because he wanted people to follow the Dharma out of understanding, not because they had been impressed by miracles or psychic feats.

Once, a wealthy merchant put a sandalwood bowl on the top of a long bamboo pole which he set up in the market at Rajagaha. Then he let it be known that any monk who could rise into the air and remove the bowl could have it. Shortly afterwards, Moggallana and Pindola Bharadvaja went into Rajagaha, and when the merchant saw them he said, "You both have psychic powers. If you fetch the bowl, it is yours." So Pindola rose into the air and brought the bowl down, to the immense admiration of the large crowd who had gathered to watch. Then the merchant called Pindola to his house and filled the sandalwood bowl with expensive food. After that, everywhere Pindola went, crowds of noisy, excited people followed him. When the Buddha heard about this, he called Pindola and scolded him:

"It is not fitting, it is not becoming, it is not right, it is not worthy of a monk, it is not allowable, it should not be done. How could you, for the sake of a miserable wooden bowl, exhibit one of the conditions of a developed person to these householders. It is just like a loose woman who exhibits her undergarment for the sake of a few miserable coins."

As a result of this incident, the Buddha made a rule making it an offence for monks to unnecessarily display their psychic powers. However, he also realised that psychic powers could sometimes be put to good use. On another occasion, some thieves attacked a house and kidnapped two children. When the monk Pilindavaccha heard of this, he used his psychic powers to bring the children back. When the other monks accused him of breaking the rule, the Buddha declared him innocent of any offence because he had used his powers out of compassion."

Moggallana likewise usually used his psychic powers only to help people. Once when he was staying with the Buddha on the upper floor of the residence of Migaramata, a group of monks on the ground floor were chattering away and making a great noise. The Buddha described them as being "frivolous, empty-headed, agitated, with harsh and useless speech, lacking concentration, unsteady, not composed, with flighty minds and with senses uncontrolled" and he urged Moggallana to give them "a good stirring." So using his big toe Moggallana made the whole house, as large as it was, shake and tremble. Thinking that the house was about to collapse and shouting in fear, the monks ran outside. The Buddha then approached them and told them that at his request Moggallana had shaken the house by means of the psychic powers he had developed with diligent meditation and that they likewise should spend time meditating instead of indulging in idle chatter.
But like the Buddha himself, Moggallana more usually helped people by teaching them the Dharma, and the Tipitaka preserves many of the discourses he delivered to monks and nuns, laymen and laywomen.

biggyboy

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 05:36:23 PM »
I just wonder why would a monk or nun to show off their abilities to others? Isn't this to show a defiance to Buddha's teaching of humility? More so they are sanghas.  Well, am not sure of what is their motivation in showing their "supernatural power" to levitate for many to see.  My questions: How has this and can help  bring people onto Buddha path? Wouldn't this a misrepresentation to lead people on? 

Found a movie where this magician went in search of a monk in Nepal who believes to have the "supernatural power" to levitate ....Interesting ..
Buddhist Monk Levitation - Full Movie


hope rainbow

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 12:33:34 AM »
I mean no offense.
And I am sure that nun has a good reason to do what she does.
But I say this: I only saw a nun in a body of water, I saw nothing extraordinary, and the water may only need to have a higher content of salt to make the floating easier. Indeed, I do not know why we even talk about levitation, I only see floating in water.

Now here is someone who is not a monk, and who clearly shows off for career, for fame, for money, but does it much more convincingly, and who FOR SURE uses a trick:

David Blaine Levitation - WATCH Small | Large


I certainly do not mean any offense with this reply. But I know many people for which seeing a nun in a pool "pretending" to levitate would be a turn off (from Buddhism) rather than an incentive.

Dorje Pakmo

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 05:34:09 AM »
Quote
So back to these nuns that can levitate! Well it is actually floating really! What interest or significance there could be in floating? Human fat is lighter than water, air-filled lungs are lighter than water so it really is not all that "mystical" or it is?

Apparently they use the supernatural powers they have developed through meditation to float in a swimming pool-like thing. I use the word 'apparently', not in disbelief that such supernatural powers exist but more a question of why the use of it!

I would have thought that a highly developed meditator would want to avoid celebrity, crowds and self-promotion. Or at least practice some humility. Once again, I am not being disrespectful but am merely questioning why? I do know they charge for the so called "performance" hence it really does sound almost like a freak show and I do not think such supernatural attainments coming from meditational practice should be "abused" in this way. Is it abuse one might ask? What are your thoughts on this?

Well, after reading the posts from Positive Change and a few others, I find that many people are showing their so called supernatural powers to hook those who are naive and want things to be easy when in fact it's an act of "illusion". People these days seem to want to believe in things like that. All these magic works and people chase after it because they they want to believe. They want to believe that it can help them ease their worldly problems, and really don't care where does the power originate from, as long as it seems to have settle their problem for now. So when is it too much? Really? Sadly to say, I think the answer is as long as people believe in quick fixes to their problems, it'll never be too much.

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Quote
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To be use for business, winning in casino, whispering for lottery luck and more.This subject is passed to Archan maha tana by his master in cambodia who had passed away.

This takrut comes with a special cream to be used together with it also. Archan maha tana handwritten the yantra using the special wealth powder and sweep all powder into the cream wax and then he added another wealth fetching takrut into the cream.
This cream can apply on hand or on money for using in lottery and gambling.Special method will only be taught to the owner of the takrut.

According to Archan maha tana, this takrut is known as a wealth generator because the gambling yantra in takrut radiates wealth luck whenever there is gambling and business involved. What is more, it can also act as a wealth absorber. If you hang it on your neck, it continues to absorb wealth everywhere you go especially from wealth spots such as banks and financial hubs, casino, places where they sell lottery tickets and where the presence of wealth are.
Using the special cream enhances the effect even faster.

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The above is a title and content from a website selling good luck charms and amulets from Thailand. Millions of people visit this magical land in search of magical items to help them fulfil their wishes. I am not saying that all this so called masters do not have powers. But from where and what do these masters derive their powers from? I am sure true Buddhist masters will not encourage people to gamble, what more to advertise telling people by obtaining certain amulet, it'll bestow them luck to win in Casino, Football bets and  Horse races.... Therefore, as long as people keep feeding their deluded minds by wanting and surrendering to these quick fixes, there is no such thing as TOO MUCH.
DORJE PAKMO

sonamdhargey

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 10:04:38 AM »
Interesting post Positive. What i saw in this video is not so much levitating. I think levitating is hovering above the ground. But this nun is floating in the water which many people can do it like what Hope Rainbow said.

I don't mean disrespect. I'm not sure what was the reason the Nun want to show her levitating ability. As a Sangha, practicing Buddhism, one should refrain from such actions as it contradicts the teachings of Buddhism. A  Sangha should refrain from showing her supernatural abilities if they have any in the first place by practicing humility.

Jessie Fong

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 11:56:52 AM »

To levitate is to be suspended against gravity in a stable position without solid physical contact ... as explained by wikipedia.

In that video, the nun was depicted as floating in a big tub of water.  Like Hope Rainbow rightly mentioned, it could have been tempered with a higher degree of salinity.  Looks to me like just floating on water in a sitting position though.

But it is not for me to judge why she was showing off her "power"?

Q

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 02:12:59 PM »
Hmm... Dont look like levitation to me haha... And frankly speaking, with respect, I've seen water aerobics that are more interesting than this. Besides, we don't even understand what she was trying to say... it could be that it's part of her physiotherapy routine, after all it's quite obvious that she have some back pain as she sits on a chair even to light incense.

Yes it is true that supernatural powers exist, I don't doubt that. However, it's only called supernatural power because at our current state, we have no way to explain it... i'm sure if any of us have levitation ability, it would be something that we'll explain that is align with logic, nothing mystical.

The reason why highly attained beings in this generation do not openly show their mystical powers is because... true, they have rules that states it is not allowed especially for sangha members. Another reason is because people's minds has degenerated so much that instead of taking faith when witnessing such an event... they tend to think on how to exploit these highly attained beings for their own material gains.

ratanasutra

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 02:34:59 PM »
I did a searching and found out that not only this nun that can floating in the big tub of water, there also other old nun (84 years old) who floating in the river in order to raising fund for her temple at north of Thialand. And because of this issue so other Thai people also came out to show that they can float in the water same which the expert said that laypeople also can float in the water, by the practice of focusing the mind or some meditation.

According to the video, in order to watch the nun floating in the big tub of water of this temple you need to buy a ticket for 10Baht (1USD=THB31.7269). So i look it that this is one of a way to raising fund for the temple.

     

Midakpa

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2012, 03:22:46 PM »
Miraculous powers can be developed by training the mind. Those monks and nuns and even laypeople who levitate had done so through controlling the mind. Some can fly, walk on water, walk through walls, raise the dead etc.

The Buddha knew that his disciples could acquire such powers through mental development but He advised them not to exercise their psychic powers in order to convert people. When uneducated people see such powers, their faith deepens. But people should not be attracted to a faith because of these powers because it is more important for them to develop faith through listening to the Dharma and use their reasoning power to realise the truth.

The following story illustrates the Buddha's attitude towards miraculous power. One day, the Buddha met an ascetic by the bank of a river. This ascetic had practised austerities for 25 years. The Buddha asked him what he had achieved through his labour. The ascetic proudly replied that, now at last, he could cross the river by walking on the water. The Buddha pointed out that this gain was insignificant for all the years of labour, since he could cross the river using a ferry for one penny!

Benny

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2012, 03:34:53 PM »
Well I think everyone got it right , I don't think that the nun was actually levitating. Again this only goes to show how, in this degenerate age that most people would just love to witness, so called magical feats that defys the laws of physics to enforce their preconceived beliefs.

This as Lord Buddha has taught is a very unhealthy practice that should be discouraged. But for whatever reasons , be it to raise funds or just as a side show to impress followers , I for one would not be in the position to judge these nuns actions. One should only hope that it is used to further benefit othersout of compassion.

Midakpa

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Re: When is it too much?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2012, 03:39:18 PM »
The Buddha says that a person can gain miraculous power without gaining spiritual power. He teaches us that if we first gain spiritual power, then we automatically receive the miraculous or psychic powers too. But it is dangerous to develop miraculous powers without spiritual development because we can misuse this power for worldly gain. There are many practitioners who have deviated from the right path by using their psychic power without spiritual development.

Thus the Buddha forbade His disciples from using miracles to prove the superiority of His teachings. He said that the use of miracles to gain converts was like using dancing girls to tempt people to do something.

Anyone with proper mind training can perform miracles because it is simply a matter of the superiority of mind over matter.

According to the Buddha, the real miracle is the miracle of realisation. When a sinner realises that what he/she has done is wrong and gives up his/her bad habits, this change is a miracle. The change for the better arising from an understanding of the Dharma is the highest miracle that any person can perform.