Author Topic: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia  (Read 13357 times)

Ensapa

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Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« on: June 26, 2012, 07:34:17 AM »
Oracle Dorjeshygden ceremony of protector possessing in Ulaanbaatar. Small | Large


I found this video on the net the other day and I thought that it would be very interesting to share with everyone here another video of our oracle in trance. I am unable to translate the mongolian description but from the video, the oracle is taking trance in the form of dulzin, the peaceful form and many, many people flock in to offer khatas to him. This is contradictory with CTA's claim that his practice is dying. It is so wonderful to be able to see our protector in trance again and again as it proves that he cannot be destroyed. There is always incredible blessings from seeing our protector in trance, even if it is from a video recording as it shows us that our protector does exist and that he is here to help us. he is alive.

This proves that Dorje Shugden is big in mongolia to the point that they have an oracle, although I am not sure if this is the same Taiwanese oracle that can be seen in other videos. Dorje Shugden is very kind to manifest in this way to his Mongolian disciples and give them his blessings. Mongolia is not a small country or place and if most of the people there practice Dorje Shugden, it could only mean that Dorje Shugden is growing bigger than ever despite the ban, contrary to what CTA wants to believe.

I do hope that everyone here will feel inspired that Dorje Shugden is always with us and for us to not give up hope despite things being difficult for us now. The ban will be lifted with his blessings and our hard work. We have to work hard and be united as Dorje Shudgen practitioners to show to everyone that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and not a spirit. That way, nobody can say that he is a spirit. Results speak louder than words. May the Dalai Lama allow Nechung to retire and consult Dorje Shugden instead as the state oracle! I really do wish that this day would come!

yontenjamyang

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 08:16:55 AM »
Ensapa, I like your suggestion for the Dalai lama to allow Nechung to retire and make Dorje Shugden the state oracle. It is better to consult an enlightened protector then an unenlightened one.

Also, I noticed the oracle keep on wiping his face. Do you know what is the reason? I have seen the Taiwanese oracle also doing the same and by the way, I think the oracle in this video is not the same as the Taiwanese one. Rejoice that there is another oracle in Mongolia.

It is a great blessing to see an Oracle in trance even if it is on video. That means we are seeing the King of Dharma live. Rejoice. Dorje Shugden practice is alive and well and will spread world wide.

Dhiman

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 09:38:02 AM »
Quote
Ensapa, I like your suggestion for the Dalai lama to allow Nechung to retire and make Dorje Shugden the state oracle. It is better to consult an enlightened protector then an unenlightened one.


If I may ask is there a difference between consulting Nechung and Dorje Shugden? As I understand, it was Nechung who approached Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen and requested him to uphold the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa as a dharma protector. The great Duldzin complied, showing his recognition towards Nechung who is not even enlightened until now. Without Nechung in the picture, I don't think there would be Dorje Shugden today.

I think the video actually shows a lama chanelling which is different from a protector taking trance in an oracle. The monk in the video is wearing a pandit hat and not the ritual investiture (compulsory when taking full trance during formal occasions). The pandit's hat is awarded only to scholars who have mastered the five sciences, someone who has accomplished the path of no more learning. Protectors do not take trance in Lamas.

Example:
H.E. Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche is a powerful practitioner but the protector does not take trance in him. There was an oracle during the opening of Serpom Monastery. http://www.shugdentoday.com/?p=9065

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 11:07:36 AM »

If I may ask is there a difference between consulting Nechung and Dorje Shugden? As I understand, it was Nechung who approached Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen and requested him to uphold the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa as a dharma protector. The great Duldzin complied, showing his recognition towards Nechung who is not even enlightened until now. Without Nechung in the picture, I don't think there would be Dorje Shugden today.

I think the video actually shows a lama chanelling which is different from a protector taking trance in an oracle. The monk in the video is wearing a pandit hat and not the ritual investiture (compulsory when taking full trance during formal occasions). The pandit's hat is awarded only to scholars who have mastered the five sciences, someone who has accomplished the path of no more learning. Protectors do not take trance in Lamas.

Example:
H.E. Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche is a powerful practitioner but the protector does not take trance in him. There was an oracle during the opening of Serpom Monastery. http://www.shugdentoday.com/?p=9065


Hi Dhiman,
Yes, of course there is a difference. Nechung is Nechung and Dorje Shugden is Dorje Shugden. Both are different beings. Nechung is an oath bound Dharma protector that existed from the time of Guru Rinpoche who put him under oath to protect the Dharma. He was a spirit that was brought over from Persia, thus he has another name which is Pehar. You can read about Pehar/Nechung's history here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3938 He is not considered as enlightened, but apparently he will soon be enlightened and Dorje Shugden will take his place as the official Dharma protector of Tibet. Perhaps, the ban is to clear the self created obstacles of the Tibetans who are massive from years of being in denial and also of years and years of destroying the Dharma from receiving Dorje Shugden as their official protector.

The lama is not channeling Dorje but he is in full trance of Dorje Shugden's peaceful form. Dorje Shugden when in trance has 2 forms: the wrathful form which will don the exact same attire as Nechung and Setrap's oracle, and the peaceful form that takes the appearance of a high lama wearing a yellow hat. Dorje Shugden is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who is a fully ordained monk who can teach the Dharma and who holds the vows perfectly. Therefore in trance, he appears in the form of a monk so that he can talk to more people as the wrathful form can tax the body of the oracle and cannot be done for extended periods of time while the peaceful form is less taxing. In this form, he is known to give Dharma talks and even initiations. For this form, he wears the attire of a high lama, complete with a pandit's hat.

This is the one thing that sets Dorje Shugden apart from other oracles: he has the ability to give teachings and Dharma talks while in trance, especially for his peaceful form as the wrathful form can probably last around 1-2 hours since it does tax the oracle's body. No other protector can do this while in trance and the most they can do is answer questions that are presented to them. Also, when Dorje Shugden takes trance, it is the high lamas that pay respect to him, while when Nechung takes trance, he has to pay respects to the high lamas. This indicates that Dorje Shugden is indeed a high lama taking the form of a yaksha so that he can be closer to us and so that he can act and relate more to our problems and to us in general. This also shows that he is higher in precedence as compared to Nechung.

This is another picture of him in his peaceful form:
Quote

Dulzin or Dorje Shugden in peaceful form taking full trance of Choyang Kuten (oracle) and giving prophecy, advice and pujas to be done for the betterment of the monastery for the coming year. It is this oracle during trance that discovered the locations of many great tulkus of Sera, Drepung and Gaden upon consultation. The great incarnations of the current Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche were found by this great oracle.


Dulzin by the way, is a title given to monks who hold the vows purely.

Positive Change

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 11:11:45 AM »
Ensapa, I like your suggestion for the Dalai lama to allow Nechung to retire and make Dorje Shugden the state oracle. It is better to consult an enlightened protector then an unenlightened one.

Also, I noticed the oracle keep on wiping his face. Do you know what is the reason? I have seen the Taiwanese oracle also doing the same and by the way, I think the oracle in this video is not the same as the Taiwanese one. Rejoice that there is another oracle in Mongolia.

It is a great blessing to see an Oracle in trance even if it is on video. That means we are seeing the King of Dharma live. Rejoice. Dorje Shugden practice is alive and well and will spread world wide.

Hi there yontenjamyang, I was told that the "wiping of the face" is a visual representation of purification of negative karma and clearing of obstacles. Because of the heavy negative karma and ostacles we have, when meeting an enlightened being such as Dorje Shugden, it is inevitable that from the pure merits we have in meeting such a being through an oracle, there is some purification of sorts involved.

I was even told that if one really observes closely, whenever highly attained Lamas are within reach of the oracle in trance, such "wiping of the face" stops... it only applies to us who have much negative karma and obstacles. Notice in the video above (mins 1:27 and 2:00) when both monks came to offer khata, the oracle stopped wiping his face. This was the only time in the video he did do... Interesting isn't it?

I do love watching videos like this as it is such a blessing to be able to bridge that gap between us and the divine. I had the merits and good fortune to meet The King twice through an oracle... and I must admit, it is mind blowing and awe inspiring!

Big Uncle

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
Quote
Ensapa, I like your suggestion for the Dalai lama to allow Nechung to retire and make Dorje Shugden the state oracle. It is better to consult an enlightened protector then an unenlightened one.


If I may ask is there a difference between consulting Nechung and Dorje Shugden? As I understand, it was Nechung who approached Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen and requested him to uphold the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa as a dharma protector. The great Duldzin complied, showing his recognition towards Nechung who is not even enlightened until now. Without Nechung in the picture, I don't think there would be Dorje Shugden today.

I think the video actually shows a lama chanelling which is different from a protector taking trance in an oracle. The monk in the video is wearing a pandit hat and not the ritual investiture (compulsory when taking full trance during formal occasions). The pandit's hat is awarded only to scholars who have mastered the five sciences, someone who has accomplished the path of no more learning. Protectors do not take trance in Lamas.

Example:
H.E. Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche is a powerful practitioner but the protector does not take trance in him. There was an oracle during the opening of Serpom Monastery. http://www.shugdentoday.com/?p=9065


Dear Dhiman,
I would like to address what you said with regards to Protectors and Lamas. First of all, the Protector Dorje Shugden is not an ordinary Protector. His previous life was the famous Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen.

These are definitely Lamas of the highest calibre, master of the 5 sciences and has accomplished the path of no more learning. Therefore, when Dorje Shugden enters the oracle as Dulzin, it is only befitting that he is offered a Pandit's hat. The oracle is not a Lama but the being entering him is a Lama. On the other hand, oracles may not be accomplished masters in the Dharma as they function only as worthy and pure receptacle for the Protector.

On the other hand, a Lama's station is way above the oracle because they are the ones that spread the Dharma. So, a Lama would never function as an oracle as they play a much bigger and more important role to the practitioners. 

Admin

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 07:56:44 PM »
This precious video is also published on the front page of dorjeshugden.com here:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=13732

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 09:57:13 PM »
Dear Ensapa,

Certainly you have found wonderful video. Thank you for posting. It brought great joy to my mind to know Shugden is re-spreading in Mongolia again.  I feel great happiness for all the fortunate people who were able to meet Dorje Shugden when He took trance of the Oracle.

TK

Notes:

The video is the young oracle who is this year 47 years old taking trance in Mongolia. His name is Gameng Kuten Tenzin Choepel and he is from Gaden Shartse Monastery now residing in Indiana, USA. He has a dharma centre there. Gameng Kuten was blessed and trained by Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche to become fit and for authentic trance of Shugden.



The oracle in the picture of your second post is Choyang Dulzin Kuten taken in Gaden Shartse Monastery during an Shugden trance section. All of Gaden came to consult Dorje Shugden while in trance for their affairs and directions. This Choyang Dulzin Kuten has passed away after a lifetime work as the Oracle of Dorje Shugden. He resided in Gaden Shartse Monastery during his tenure as the Oracle. He was personally blessed and trained by His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche.


Pictures:

1. Choyang Kuten in trance of peaceful Shugden in Ganden Shartse's main Prayer hall
2. Choyang Kuten in silk jacket
3. Choyang Kuten in trance of Shugden in his residence
4. Choyang Kuten in full regalia about to take trance of Wrathful Shugden in Gaden
5. Gameng Kuten in trance of Peaceful Shugden in Shar Gaden
6. Gameng Kuten in full regalia to take trance of Wrathful Shugden in Shar Gaden

dsiluvu

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 03:39:54 AM »
I've extracted some interesting points here on Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama from his INSPIRING autobio found here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1127

From these points extracted, you can see very clearly the qualities of this oracle cum Lama and from what we can see Dorje Shugden does not benefit only the Gelugpas... but anyone despite their difference in tradition. There is no sectarianism in Dorje Shugden... only in the minds of the corrupt and polluted ordinary beings unfortunately....


Autobiography of His Eminence Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama


I considered that the only purpose of the Dharmapala is to benefit sentient beings and to help their lives, so I felt that if I remained in Lhasa I might be able to contribute something to Tibet as a nation and to the Tibetan people. DOES THIS SOUND SECTARIAN???

I was given a choice of two monasteries to stay in. One was really isolated, the other more accessible, so I chose the latter monastery, Chokor-Yangse. That is how I got the name Choyang Duldzin Kuten. Choyang is the short form of Chokor-Yangtse Monastery, and Duldzin is the peaceful form of the Dharmapala. High lamas at this difficult time sought clearer answers to their questions, so they requested more invocations of the peaceful aspect rather than the wrathful form of the Dharmapala. Up until then I was only taken in trance by the wrathful aspect, especially during the New Year ceremonies. So from that time I was known as the ‘peaceful’ (Duldzin) Kuten Lama. ‘Kuten’ means the body that holds the Dharmapala.

I stayed at Buxa for ten years at the request of the officials of His Holiness and served as an oracle. Whenever there was a major decision to be made I was consulted, irrespective of any tradition posing the questions. I also served as a representative at many conferences in New Delhi and Dharamsala during this time. DOES THIS SOUND SECTARIAN AND HE EVEN SERVED HIS HOLINESS?

During my tenure as Secretary I worked very hard for obtaining the funds for the monks’ quarters, not only for Ganden but also for Drepung, and the Nyingma and Sakya monks as well [that doesn’t sound very sectarian]. About sixteen quarters have been built, housing twenty monks in each building. Also two good committee halls have been built. In addition many cattle and two tractors were provided. All of these were provided by my appeals to the Indian government for help for funds and for special projects that were recommended strongly by the resident Indian officer here at the time.

Dhiman

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 04:20:46 AM »
Dear Ensapa and BU, thank you for the informative post. It is certainly great knowing how different Lord Shugden is as compared to other Dharma protectors.

Manjushri

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 04:43:28 AM »
Thank you all for such an insightful post. It is great to see Dorje Shugden oracles even in Mongolia which definitely shows that many still propitiate the great King.

Just a question, how does one differentiate form the different Dharma Protectors that enters the oracle? Like in this video shown here, how can one tell that it is Dorje Shugden?

I was browsing through youtube and came across this video on oracles taking trance.

The Oracle taking trance of King Dorje Shugden at Shar Gaden Monastery Grand Opening, Oct 2009] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-AXZ453-4#]The Oracle taking trance of King Dorje Shugden at Shar Gaden Monastery Grand Opening, Oct 2009[/url]

You will see at 06:20-06:40 that Dorje Shugden, through the oracle, is very happy as he keeps pounding the metal plate on his chest. You can see the respect that he shows the Abbot of Shar Gaden, Venerable Abbot Geshe Lharampa Lobsang Phende, and how happy DS is with his works. Many times, the Dharma Protector, whilst taking trance in an oracle, will show tremendous respect to the high lamas that are present, showing that the lama is higher than the protector.

Also, you will notice that the monks will bite/use their robes to cover their mouth in the presence of, and whilst serving the Protector. This is to show respect to the Protector.

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden oracle in Mongolia
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 11:12:02 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

Certainly you have found wonderful video. Thank you for posting. It brought great joy to my mind to know Shugden is re-spreading in Mongolia again.  I feel great happiness for all the fortunate people who were able to meet Dorje Shugden when He took trance of the Oracle.

TK

Notes:

The video is the young oracle who is this year 47 years old taking trance in Mongolia. His name is Gameng Kuten Tenzin Choepel and he is from Gaden Shartse Monastery now residing in Indiana, USA. He has a dharma centre there. Gameng Kuten was blessed and trained by Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche to become fit and for authentic trance of Shugden.



The oracle in the picture of your second post is Choyang Dulzin Kuten taken in Gaden Shartse Monastery during an Shugden trance section. All of Gaden came to consult Dorje Shugden while in trance for their affairs and directions. This Choyang Dulzin Kuten has passed away after a lifetime work as the Oracle of Dorje Shugden. He resided in Gaden Shartse Monastery during his tenure as the Oracle. He was personally blessed and trained by His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche.


Pictures:

1. Choyang Kuten in trance of peaceful Shugden in Ganden Shartse's main Prayer hall
2. Choyang Kuten in silk jacket
3. Choyang Kuten in trance of Shugden in his residence
4. Choyang Kuten in full regalia about to take trance of Wrathful Shugden in Gaden
5. Gameng Kuten in trance of Peaceful Shugden in Shar Gaden
6. Gameng Kuten in full regalia to take trance of Wrathful Shugden in Shar Gaden

Thank you very much TK. I am honored to know that this video pleases your mind as it does to me. People of this day and age need Dorje Shugden very much, when all of us have so much obscurations where it becomes no longer possible for the "higher" Dharma protectors such as Mahakala for example to help us in times of need. Dorje Shugden is close to us and we can all relate to his story of being victimized by the CTA and instead of staying being victimized or keeping quiet, he arose as a Dharma protector to benefit many, many sentient beings and people of this day and age. And even for that, he emanated in many different forms - namely the 5 forms, the nine attractive Mothers, the eight guiding Monks and the ten wrathful assistants, as well as countless other emanations in order to benefit sentient beings and guide them to the path of Dharma. Which other Dharma protector have that ability to emanate in so many ways? the ability of Dorje Shugden to be able to do this must be a result of his great compassion for Dharma practitioners during this age and time where Dharma practice is harder than before.

On top of that, he also takes trance. Aside from Setrap, I have not heard of any other Dharma protector which is kind enough to take trance that is also enlightened at the same time. Most other enlightened Dharma protectors such as Mahakala not only cannot speak through an oracle, but requires HYT initiation before he can be practiced as his energy is too strong. For Dorje Shugden to kindly scale down to us so that he can benefit us is very compassionate of him and that he is able to guide us and give us direct instructions of what to do so that we do not have to wait until we can get a vision before we can get direct instructions from him. He has also identified many Tulkus, who grow up to be Lamas that are of much benefit to sentient beings. If he is not able to take trance, how else is he able to identify and confirm them for us? It is also thanks to this confirmation that they can rise up to benefit many.

I just got into a little bit of contemplation while I was thinking of Dorje Shugden's kindness in taking trance for our sakes and not for any other and it kinda flowed out from me. It is incredible that the oracle himself is 47 years old and he is still doing trance so that many can benefit. It is also very kind for the oracle to fly so far away just so that he can take trance of the protector for the people of mongolia to benefit from his presence. May I one day have the fortune to be blessed by the protector in trance, together with my Guru acting as the intermediary. That would be mind blowingly amazing as it would be just like what is described in the initiation of Dorje Shugden when the Lama joins the hand of the student with the protector!! I do not want to just receive blessings from the protector, I want to work with him so that my Lama can flourish and also that he create the conditions for me to be able to advance in my spiritual path. That would be what I will request from the oracle if I ever have the fortune.

It is very blessed indeed to be able to see the oracles that channel our beloved protector. Thank you again TK for posting them and for sharing your knowledge on them.