Author Topic: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen  (Read 5258 times)

DSFriend

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This news shows how influential China is throughout the world. We have seen great empires come and gone... and as we know, China is the next great power in this world. Is it the next or has China NOW established herself to be the most powerful nation in the world?

How will this affect the recognition and acceptance of HHDL's next incarnation? (if there is going to be one) In my opinion, the influence of HHDL is declining, not because he is losing power and control just because he stepped down as the political head of TGIE but from the sheer influence of China throughout the world. If China supports XYZ, then XYZ is supported to happen. If china doesn't support, tremendous pressure is put forth to ensure it doesn't happen.

Don't you think we are so fortunate that China is supportive and accepts Dorje Shugden?


Source : http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/06/hold-tibet.html

In a decision that outraged supporters of the Tibetan cause, Milan has backed away from plans to give the Dalai Lama honorary citizenship because of concerns about upsetting China, Italian media reported Thursday.

The Milan city council had planned to vote on making the Dalai Lama an honorary citizen before his visit next week. Officials in Venice and Rome have already honored the Tibetan spiritual leader.

City leaders came under pressure from the Italian Foreign Ministry and the Chinese ambassador to drop the idea, La Repubblica reported. Milan reportedly worried that the move could also poison its talks with China before the Italian city hosts an international exposition in 2015.

The city council scuttled the move, upsetting the president of the Tibetan community of Milan, who told Tempi that giving in to China would "cover Milan with shame." The mayor reportedly said he would nonetheless welcome the Dalai Lama to their city hall, an offer that didn't appease his critics.

"Today, I am ashamed to be a representative of a council and a city that are scared," said city council member Pietro Tatarella, who wanted to give the Dalai Lama the honor, according to La Repubblica.

The furor over pulling back the honor has led other Italian cities to say they’ll make the Dalai Lama an honorary citizen in their towns. The mayor of Matera said the city was committed to defending human rights around the world, including in China, Adnkronos reported.

Hosting the Dalai Lama has been politically sticky for European leaders hoping to stay in the good graces of China. After British Prime Minister David Cameron met with the Dalai Lama in May, China canceled a scheduled visit to Britain by one of its top officials. In Scotland, where the Dalai Lama is visiting this week, opposition parties have accused political leaders of snubbing the Tibetan spiritual leader to appease China, the BBC reported Thursday. Scottish leaders denied that, but emphasized that the trip to Scotland was "pastoral," not "political."

Dozens of Tibetans have set themselves on fire this year to protest what they say is an increasingly heavy hand imposed by the Chinese government on Tibetan religious life. Two Tibetans immolated themselves Wednesday, the Associated Press reported.

thor

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 08:48:05 PM »
I like what is being said here. As a staunch Shugden practitioner, I have to admit I feel a little thrill of glee when I hear that this and that government have made a political decision against the Dalai Lama or the CTA. Its not right to rejoice that the Dalai Lama is getting the short end of the stick, but each time it happens, it is another ray of hope for Shugdenites. It shows how much China's opinion matters. And it shows how dispensable the Dalai Lama is becoming. No disrespect meant.

So with China's support of Dorje Shugden, it would perhaps mean that other countries and other governments would also extend their support to the Shugden movement. And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

dsdisciple

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 11:22:36 PM »
Hi Thor,

Yes it does seem like we are truly lucky to have an indirect support for DS practice from China's influence...My own perspective mirrors what many who participate on the forum that the DS Lineage and practice has gone from the secret to the mainstream in various places around the world how things change in the 21st century!

Modern times call for new methods that appeal to modern people...and DS fills this requirement perfectly.

One thing you definitely cannot fault China's long term view and perspective on their current Global reach and influence...their is a lot of talk about China's spiritual needs but what about other continents where Buddhism has not reached...for example Africa is definitely one place that would benefit from Dharma...China has been consistently been investing in this region for many years ahead of Europe and the US.

China even provided resources and training to the ANC members in Zimbabwe? when many countries would not provide material training covertly during the initial stages of the ANC movement via a splinter group(Nelson Mandella Autobiography). Also China continues to invest in capital infrastructure / industries in many countries in Africa, a region predicted to develop in the future (labour / natural resources).

Imagine what DS practice could do in Africa! A new renaissance of peace on a global scale predicted by new age fraternity helped along by DS! Imagine an African continent with stable lasting peace and prosperity for all....DS practice global now that's an interesting thought indeed.

xo

dsdisciple

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 11:31:12 PM »
In addition to my previous post.... I had another thought...Are their any continents DS practice has not gone to around the world even if it is in secret at this point in time the DS issue / HHDL / CTA and current situation is making sure it is getting some sort of coverage in minds of people around the world.

xo

michaela

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 12:41:20 AM »
HHDL remains a well respected figure around the world, lthough he has stepped down from his political role.  For the world he is the biggest representation of Tibetan Buddhism.  No doubt he is very powerful.

An enlightened mind can have various incarnations that work together concurrently, the issue in here is how to find the main incarnation.

I do not know how China will react when HHDL attendants are trying to find his next incarnation (if there is going to be any).  China has shown mix and inconsistent reactions in the recognition of High Lama.  For example, China recognized the same Karmapa that was endorsed by HHDL while they refused to recognize Panchen Lama that have been recognized by HHDL.

Even when we put the issue of China aside, the history of recognition of High Lama within Tibetan itself has been complex by nature.  For example, the recognition of the previous incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche and the current incarnation of Karmapa. 

I just hope that the above historical reference of the recognition of Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche will not serve as a reference when the time come to recognize HHDL incarnation

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 01:17:51 AM »
Dear Thor,
I share the same feeling as yourself, that  I feel fortunate and rejoice  us Shugdenites have China on our side to spread DS far and wide. It is very obvious many countries around the world are being very cautious not to upset big super powerful China for fear of losing friendship and also economic ties. Sad for the human rights cause but a positive point for DS practitioners, many of them are also being ostracized. That being said, I still have the  deepest respect for HHDL. As for the next incarnation of Dalai Lama, HH himself have mentioned that this would  be the last incarnation. Being the enlightened one, I guess he saw all this coming.

Positive Change

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 07:03:14 AM »
I like what is being said here. As a staunch Shugden practitioner, I have to admit I feel a little thrill of glee when I hear that this and that government have made a political decision against the Dalai Lama or the CTA. Its not right to rejoice that the Dalai Lama is getting the short end of the stick, but each time it happens, it is another ray of hope for Shugdenites. It shows how much China's opinion matters. And it shows how dispensable the Dalai Lama is becoming. No disrespect meant.

So with China's support of Dorje Shugden, it would perhaps mean that other countries and other governments would also extend their support to the Shugden movement. And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

Yes Thor... Imagine if there was NO ban... and that Dorje Shugden was still very much a practice HHDL encouraged and promoted OUTWARDLY. Certainly very very different results would ensue. I believe strongly, in hindsight (but in HHDL's case, it was foresight), the ban was and is the catalyst for Dorje Shugden to spread INTO China. Imagine the millions that has, is and going to be benefited. And if that is not enough reason to see why the ban could possibly be in place, perhaps we have lost the bigger picture and have been blinkered and we can't see the forest for the trees!

I do not think the Italian capital handled the matter too well. As a Government the pros and cons of any decision made has to be weighed BEFORE a statement or plan is to be made. To back out of something at the eleventh hour especially something press worthy of this magnitude is just careless and inconsiderate.

However, I am happy to hear that some individual cities in Italy will follow through. So perhaps HHDL may not be an honourary citizen of Italy per se but at least he has the the support of the Italians on a whole.

Big Uncle

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 09:41:13 AM »
I like what is being said here. As a staunch Shugden practitioner, I have to admit I feel a little thrill of glee when I hear that this and that government have made a political decision against the Dalai Lama or the CTA. Its not right to rejoice that the Dalai Lama is getting the short end of the stick, but each time it happens, it is another ray of hope for Shugdenites. It shows how much China's opinion matters. And it shows how dispensable the Dalai Lama is becoming. No disrespect meant.

So with China's support of Dorje Shugden, it would perhaps mean that other countries and other governments would also extend their support to the Shugden movement. And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

Dear Thor,
Hmmm... Well, the Chinese government only want one thing from Dorje Shugden practitioners. They want to use us to destabilize the Dalai Lama and his Central Tibetan Administration. They are in a way supporting Dorje Shugden practitioners in China for that reason alone.

I suspect that if the Dalai Lama were to retract his Dorje Shugden ban, the Chinese would withdraw its support immediately and this will affect the Tibetan monasteries, institutions and practitioners of Dorje Shugden in China. I think that without the ban on Dorje Shugden, the Chinese would just regard Dorje Shugden practitioners the same way as the other Tibetans - with suspicion. Therefore, I think the monasteries of Serpom, Shar Gaden any other institutions that are outside of Tibet would not be affected because I don't think the Chinese are supporting them anyway. So, it would not make a difference.

dsiluvu

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 11:13:19 AM »
I like what is being said here. As a staunch Shugden practitioner, I have to admit I feel a little thrill of glee when I hear that this and that government have made a political decision against the Dalai Lama or the CTA. Its not right to rejoice that the Dalai Lama is getting the short end of the stick, but each time it happens, it is another ray of hope for Shugdenites. It shows how much China's opinion matters. And it shows how dispensable the Dalai Lama is becoming. No disrespect meant.

So with China's support of Dorje Shugden, it would perhaps mean that other countries and other governments would also extend their support to the Shugden movement. And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

An interesting thought Thor. In a way aren't we glad there is a BAN??? Perhaps this is the very reason why His Holiness remains FIRM and unmovable with His decision. Now let's say for some odd reason the Ban is lifted... I am thinking it can only be so indirectly because China is spreading it and it has become a common practice that will flow down, taking its natural cause, like in the history of any religion, to other parts of the world. Well CTA do not control the whole world so hence in this way I see the potential possibility of Dorje Shugden practice becoming mainstream globally. This will out shine the BAN that is limited to only Dharmasala...not even India I reckon... by that time... what is left for the CTA? Especially when His Holiness passes, sorry to say.

If the Ban was lifeted... I don't think Shar Gaden and Serpom will be affected as they are not in China but in India and have many sponsors not from China to help support them. But as for the Tibetan monasteries... perhaps they will lack the support but if Dorje Shugden is a protector... as we know... he would have granted a few good wishes to some and they would have this benefit and experience to know it is worth preserving and allow the practice to continue with little resistance. Some mystical faith there cos Dorje Shugden often gives signs. 

kris

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 02:20:32 PM »
... And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

Reading the history, when the monks left China in 1959, I am so happy that India accepted the monks into India, and gave them lands and places to continue their practices. For whatever the reason (political or whatnot), the monks are not sent back to China, and to me that is a blessing.

Over the years, things change, political stand changed too. I felt that with China's rapid growing in economy, most if not all are trying to get on her side. I would say that China's power has definitely help Shar Gaden and Serpom.

However, I felt that even if China against Dorje Shugden, Shar Gaden and Serpom will not be kicked out from India. If CTA made the request to India to kick Shar Gaden and Serpom out, my opinion is that India won't do it. First, what rights does CTA has to make that request? CTA is just an exile and also "borrowing" a place in India too. Secondly, India will not entertain their request because India will want to tell CTA that India is still the boss and not CTA :D

Manjushri

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 03:51:53 PM »
The force China has over the world is only getting stronger. A single no from China, and so many other countries will follow suit. Imagine, just to get into China's good books, the city of Milan can pull back from granting HHDL honorary citizenship. It's not a small thing to do! It's not like cancelling on a meal... It's pulling back a citizenship!! oh my. But as diplomatic as government officials are, they would welcome HHDL nonetheless. Pfft.

Why did Milan retract granting HHDL the offer? Because:

"Milan reportedly worried that the move could also poison its talks with China before the Italian city hosts an international exposition in 2015."

So, it's for the good of the country.. hmm...or so they say. I like China's attitude.. they don't care what they lose, no means no. If you follow HHDL,that's it. The high official who cancelled his trip to UK after David Cameron met up with HHDL shows how adament, strong and care-less China is. You don't play by their rules, they don't play by yours.

Luckily Shugden's in China's good books (thanks to HHDL!)... China has been big supporters of pro-Shugden monasteries, hence sponsoring many refurbishments and monks of these monastery. China's Emperor Kangxi, who revolutionized China and brought it up to another level during his reign, was an emanation of Dorje Shugden. Looks like China has alot of affinity with DS!

Klein

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 04:35:22 PM »
So with China's support of Dorje Shugden, it would perhaps mean that other countries and other governments would also extend their support to the Shugden movement. And I sometimes wonder - If China was opposed to Dorje Shugden, would the Shugden practitioners have any support at all? Would Shar Gaden and Serpom be allowed to stay  in South India or would they be kicked out for fear of disrupting the relationship with China? Your thoughts?

India would not kick out Shar Gaden and Serpom. HHDL and CTA have been in Dharamsala, India for decades and India hasn't asked them to leave. Hasn't China been unhappy with India for these few decades? But India is not kowtowing to China.

India is another huge nation that can survive on it's own domestic market. India doesn't need China to survive. Furthermore, India is a democratic nation that advocates human rights as established by Mahatma Gandhi. There is no way that the government would discriminate a community that believes in a common religious practice, let alone support another country or group that does.

This was what Mahatma Gandhi said, “The golden way is to be friends with the world and to regard the whole human family like members of one family. He, who distinguishes between one’s own family and another’s miseducates the members of his own and opens the way for discord and irreligion.”

DSFriend

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 06:23:58 PM »

I just hope that the above historical reference of the recognition of Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche will not serve as a reference when the time come to recognize HHDL incarnation

This has crossed my mind many times too. But looking at the political climate, I can't see how another incarnation outside of china can ascend the throne that is officially recognized... that doesn't mean the incarnation recognized outside of china is not valid if that happens. There will be many emanations I am sure though. HHDL is full of skillful ways and it will be very interesting to see what happens later on.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 07:27:56 PM »
The whole Italian fiasco about withdrawing the honorary citizenship award to HH the Dalai Lama is very sad. Why? Because another nation can be controlled by fear of economic retaliation by one of, if not the fastest growing powerful nation in the world today. Money is might. And China certainly does know how to flex it.

Tibet will never gain independence and it is not because as HH Dalai Lama has claimed – that Dorje Shugden had anything negative to do with it. In fact, Dorje Shugden has consistently helped the Dalai Lama. It is illogical for the Dalai Lama to turn his back on Dorje Shugden.

In fact, the only way to counter China’s materialistic culture is to bring back some form of spirituality to its people. Tibet should remain in China – not because of any other reason except that from Tibet, Buddhism could permeate throughout China and of everyone in the world today, China needs it most of all.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Carpenter

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Re: Italian city pulls back from making Dalai Lama an honorary citizen
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 07:55:05 PM »
I wonder for those people who keep on accusing Dalai Lama, has they ever thought that why do Dalai Lama set himself up in this situation for banning Dorje Shugden?

Dalai Lama has been promoting peace and harmony throughout the world, and now he got rejected by Italy for the citizenship approval. Main reason is because of China, this clearly shows that how strong China has become, it is strong enough to affect the whole world, and every country is now putting China as priority compare to Dalai Lama.

50 years ago, 30 years ago, can anyone ever predict that China will be so strong? Since Kangxi time, Dorje Shugden has planted himself in China and it has became one of the strongest country in today’s time, isn’t it very mysterious? Dorje Shugden with the help of 5th Dalai Lama to make up hype for him during his death, and now through 14th Dalai Lama’s hand, he has been pushed to a worldwide platform, is this coincident or it is as planned?