Author Topic: Killing Pest  (Read 21977 times)

Big Uncle

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 04:44:47 PM »
I think it is very important that pest control is killing of sentient beings and the worse thing is that it is the killing of hundreds of rats and so forth. The karmic repercussion is tremendous and there is the option to perform pujas to purify the karma like Medicine Buddha and so forth.

Remember, negative karma does not stay stagnant, it multiplies over time.  However, the real purification is how well we apply the 4 opponent powers. Therefore, it would be wiser to avoid killing by avoiding the conditions for pest to breed. Keeping the premises clean and ensuring that garbage are devoid of vermin. That would mean maintaining awareness and being conscientious of the cleanliness of the premise all the time.

Positive Change

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
I think it is very important that pest control is killing of sentient beings and the worse thing is that it is the killing of hundreds of rats and so forth. The karmic repercussion is tremendous and there is the option to perform pujas to purify the karma like Medicine Buddha and so forth.

Remember, negative karma does not stay stagnant, it multiplies over time.  However, the real purification is how well we apply the 4 opponent powers. Therefore, it would be wiser to avoid killing by avoiding the conditions for pest to breed. Keeping the premises clean and ensuring that garbage are devoid of vermin. That would mean maintaining awareness and being conscientious of the cleanliness of the premise all the time.

Precisely Big Uncle... As I said in my earlier post below:

Killing is killing and negative karma will be reaped. Best to avoid altogether... However, if one looks at the extermination of pest on the level of how many one kills now as opposed to more when the population increases (as it will), then the lesser of two evils can then be applied to lessen the karma (if one decides that to kill is the ONLY option).

Whatever the choice we have to know that killing regardless of whatever justifications we give ourselves will have negative karmic repercussions.

Therefore it is always best to keep ones premises clean and free of anything that may attract these pest to begin with. Then the act of killing could be avoided altogether. Get rid of the cause so one does not need to get rid of the symptom. Apply what the royal courts in China did in the old days:

A doctor is kept on a monthly or yearly retainer so long as each member of the royal family, especially the emperor is kept healthy and free of illness. The moment illness sets in the retainer is lost and possibly even the head of the doctor's from his shoulders! I wish western doctors in this day and age would have such integrity (there are of course exceptions to the rule) and not merely treat our symptoms and make loads of money from someone else's pain and suffering!


To add... if all else fails and we need to perform this act of killing, there are as pujas to perform in order to purify the karma. And the efficacy of this purification is reliant on the four opponent powers which I have condensed below:

The Four Opponent Powers:
1. Regret
(a mind operating out of regret is a mind that is immediately seeking for solutions/antidotes. eg story from the Lamrim: we are having a tea party and someone comes to inform us that there is poison in the tea, the feeling that we have at that instant is regret! I regret I drank the tea, if I had known, I would not have drunk it but now that I have drank it I am acting to fix it. It is by no means guilt because guilt does not make one act. Why? Because guilt is an ego trap. It makes one identify with the act. eg. I have lied = I am a liar, I have stolen = I am a thief, I have killed = I am a murderer, etc. Then we develop anger towards the person we identify ourselves as: The Liar, The Thief, The Murderer. Anger is the mind that wishes to hurt others. In this case it is a mind that wishes to hurt ourselves because we hate what we think we have become. Hence we hurt ourselves, we hate ourselves, and in the worse case scenario, we kill ourselves because as we cannot live with ourselves. A mind of guilt cannot have any reparable effect but a mind of regret free from ego can).

2. Foundation
(the foundation is taking refuge and generating Boddhicitta. eg. There are only two types of beings in the universe and they are either Buddhas or sentient beings. We have hurt both over many lifetimes and in order to address the hurt, in the case of Buddhas we take refuge, meaning we recognize the qualities of the Buddha etc and in the case of sentient beings, we generate Boddhicitta, meaning we go into extensive spiritual practice in order to help ALL sentient beings).

3. Reparation
(is an action to repair the non virtuous karma after one has developed regret, taken refuge and generated Boddhicitta or it would be of no effect. eg. pujas, engaging in purification practices like Vajrasattva and 35 Confessional Buddhas and most importantly carrying out instructions from your Guru).

4. Promise
(is a vow taken not to repeat the action and it can be attached to a specific time frame).

Now we might think that we know of the method to purify our karma, we think we can engage in non-virtuous actions because of it. But that would be a stupid as saying "I can break my leg because I can fix my leg so I shall break my leg"

hope rainbow

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 08:07:41 AM »
LOL...
It's ok, I'll break my leg now, because it can be fixed anyway...
That sounds rather stupid anyway!
Laughable!

So I'll lie and cheat today, because tonight I'll apply a few malas of Vajrassatvas and I'll throw in some 35 CB...
Laughable!

This sounds as if we are using Dharma like some magic to assist us in manoeuvring through samsara in order to achieve our worldly goals.
Not at all a mindset of Refuge and Bodhicitta, so we are missing the 2nd Oppoenent Power, making our petty practice without effect. The leg won't heal!

Positive Change

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 02:53:37 PM »
LOL...
It's ok, I'll break my leg now, because it can be fixed anyway...
That sounds rather stupid anyway!
Laughable!

So I'll lie and cheat today, because tonight I'll apply a few malas of Vajrassatvas and I'll throw in some 35 CB...
Laughable!

This sounds as if we are using Dharma like some magic to assist us in manoeuvring through samsara in order to achieve our worldly goals.
Not at all a mindset of Refuge and Bodhicitta, so we are missing the 2nd Oppoenent Power, making our petty practice without effect. The leg won't heal!

Well Hope Rainbow, unfortunately some people have perceived such means of escapism through the centuries... thinking that knowing a one fix method "cures" and "justifies" the very negative actions they create.

The Act of Contrition in Catholicism is based very closely to the 4 opponent powers but unfortunately without proper guidance and logical thought, it seems so "easy" to get "forgiveness" from a creator God. To throw it on A being the very problems we created. For me personally, that is mere shallow thinking and pure selfishness... I mean no disrespect to Catholicism which I find is wonderful if interpreted well... But alas as with all human perception and warped logic, we turn it to our "benefit"... so we think!

How do we expect purification or forgiveness if our motivation was to continue to create more negativity... to clean the slate so we can doodle again is just childlike and stupid. But the thing is, I believe all of us know, we cannot run or hide from the negativity we create or cause, hence we find ways to "distract" our guilt and hopefully we have time to deal with it later... the scary thing about this is, that "later" is precisely what keeps us in this cycle of samsaric existence... it just goes on and on and on and on till we forget why we are here to begin with!

pgdharma

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 03:21:18 PM »
If there are rats running in the ceiling than I think the temple is not well kept. As a preventive measure, it is best to keep the temple clean and tidy. Food must not be left openly as it will attract the rats to come. Since the rats are already there, before asking the pest control to come, pujas must be done for them before they are trapped and killed so that at least they will be able to take a better rebirth and our negative karma collected from destroying/killing the rats can be lessened. Now that the temple is pest free, maintenance of keeping the temple clean is very important so that this incident do not occur again.

Vajraprotector

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 12:04:16 AM »
It is said in the teachings that if you kill one animal, because of that karma, you will be killed five hundred times by others. You will suffer in very hot hell realm for one thousand eons. This is also explained by the fact that karma is expandable, like what Big Uncle mentioned.

If you plant one Bodhi tree seed the size of the tip of your finger, then from that comes many thousands of branches. All of that comes from one seed. Huge trees all grow from small seeds. So, you can get extremely large results from one small cause. In terms of our inner evolution, the effect is much greater. Not only does one suffer for many lifetimes, but the negative karma of killing obscures the mind. It becomes an obstacle to developing loving kindness and compassion for living beings, to developing the altruistic mind to attain enlightenment in order to liberate sentient beings, and to achieving liberation by removing the gross and subtle obscurations and therefore to achieving enlightenment. Therefore, we can’t do perfect work for sentient beings by freeing them from suffering and bringing them to enlightenment.

Many times, because the being is an animal or insect, we would consider they are lesser beings and hence killing them is "ok". What is more scarier is not the actual killing out of "no choice" but this view that it is ok to kill. There is always a better choice or option, and this is when we can practice whatever limited compassion we have.

In this case, I support the proposal to trap the mice and avoid killing them.

Positive Change

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 01:24:32 PM »
Quote
It is said in the teachings that if you kill one animal, because of that karma, you will be killed five hundred times by others. You will suffer in very hot hell realm for one thousand eons. This is also explained by the fact that karma is expandable, like what Big Uncle mentioned.

If you plant one Bodhi tree seed the size of the tip of your finger, then from that comes many thousands of branches. All of that comes from one seed. Huge trees all grow from small seeds. So, you can get extremely large results from one small cause.

Hmmm... got me thinking... Does this mean it applies to both positive AND negative karma? Seeing as negative karma multiplies in time as Big Uncle mentioned:

Quote
Remember, negative karma does not stay stagnant, it multiplies over time.

So why can't good karma? Does it or am I clutching at straws here? Why does negative karma multiple over time? Is it because the more we keep quiet about something bad we have done, the more justification we give and the more avoidance we create, that is exactly what multiplies the negativity?

Kinda makes sense to me... but with that logic, positive karma will not multiply because it is basically DONE. We cannot really make it any more than it is, for if we rejoice or brag about it, that would be negative as opposed to positive....

Can someone illuminate my thoughts please! :)

dsiluvu

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 02:14:49 PM »
Here's an interesting piece of info on how to look at Good & Bad karma which to me kinda make sense...

Think of your karma as being two bank accounts – one for good karma and one for bad karma.

Good karma can either be "spent" on pleasurable life circumstances or it can be used to "pay off" some of our bad karma. Less-developed people nearly always choose the first option; whilst more-developed people usually choose the second. This explains some of the iniquities of life where honest and hardworking people live in poverty whilst selfish and corrupt people live a life of opulence. When a less-developed person chooses to spend all their good karma in one go they will enjoy wealth, power or fame for few years or perhaps an entire lifetime, but once their good karma is used up they will be relegated to many lives of poverty and suffering. The real sting is that an undeveloped person usually generates more bad karma in a prosperous life than they do in a poverty-stricken life because the money, power or fame goes to their head and makes them more egotistical and unpleasant.

Source:http://www.esotericscience.org/article16a.htm

Hence, I would say it is possible for that good karma to multiply if you don't use it when you receive it and instead you "pay it forward"? Or make that good karma in to "merits" by dedicating your positive actions to all sentient beings starting with the right motivation before you do the action? Eg. Lets say you want to go out and feed the homeless tonight, you think of it with a good motivation such may this "action" you are about to do help release the suffering of those hungry and may you benefit them by taking away that suffering of their always... followed by your actual action of doing it. Finally dedicating it to all sentient beings again so you may release all suffering.

Any other suggestions?

ratanasutra

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 05:38:25 PM »
Killing is negative karma, no matter you kill a small ant or an elephant.

i believe that for your place to have rat, you creates the cause for that. Perhap, instead of kill them, may be you could find the problem why there are the rat there..

15 years ago i stayed in the apartment and my apartment have ants walk through as one line like army, if my mum stay with me, she will just spray them to die immediately. Even tho i not really understand the karma clearly but i chose to not kill or harm those ant.

i used baby powder to put next to ant line as recommended by my friend. Yes i share my room with ant, they used a small area to walk back and forward and i stayed in my area.

A few month later, my karma with them are end, they stop to walk through that direction and disappeared from my room.

i share my experience which you and hope that it might help you to realize before you start to call people to come to do negative karma.

Midakpa

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2012, 07:18:11 AM »
I've also killed mice and other small animals and insects before, thinking that it was all right to kill pests. After I met the Dharma, I know it's wrong and regret very much my actions of killing those poor creatures. The mice that came into my home were looking for food. It would have been kinder to just trap them and let them go. The same for those rats in the temple.

As for ants, it would be difficult not to exterminate them if there is a threat to the property, health of humans and so forth. But we will have to face the consequences later. We can't escape the karma. That's why we need to take refuge in the Three Jewels.

Reena Searl

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 09:34:52 AM »
Myself normally make every effort to avoid killing things like insects after I learned about dharma.
I'm trying to get them out the best but sometime really can't help. In this situation, i normally chant purification mantra like Vajrasattva.

Personally think that, If you have to kill insects don't beat yourself up about it, but do watch your mind. What is important is the attitude and intention. What really breaks the precepts is getting into the habit of being angry and killing out of greed for your personal space.

I agree with dondrup too. Killing pests is only the last option if there is no other choice.
With regards to the rats, trapping them and releasing them far away in the jungle would be a better choice.

Aurore

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 09:35:42 AM »
When I visited some friends in Asian countries, there's tons and tons of mosquitoes flying around biting us. The sewage system in some less developed countries are not as good as other developed countries hence the infestation of pest like mosquitoes. Ok I call mosquitoes pest because they can be harmful and carry deadly diseases.

Keeping the house clean can help to keep away pest. However, in some cases where it's not within one's control such as mosquitoes, how can I advise my friends to NOT kill them? There's plenty of products out there that aids killing of mosquitoes such as sprays, there's also this electrical badminton racquet and much more. I've also been trying to educate them to stop killing any living being and this includes insects no matter how annoying they can be. What is the best way to tell them these if they don't believe in karma?

thor

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 05:13:09 PM »
In this instance, I agree with one of the previous comments that the rats could have been trapped and released elsewhere, instead of killing them. However, that is an ideal solution, and there will be occasions where there is no choice but to kill the pests in question, such as when it comes to cockroaches, ants, termites, bees, and such.

In these types of situations, we really have no choice but to exterminate, as leaving them as they are will result in the place being unlivable, unattractive, and even unsafe. Something similar had happened to my dharma centre before, so with a heavy heart and good motivation, a group of students performed a series of prayers including some medicine Buddha prayers, for the pests to be blessed with a good rebirth before we called in the exterminator.

The most ideal situation of course, would be if we kept our dharma centre well maintained, clean and neat, is that the pest situation can be avoided as far as we can control. After all, prevention is better than cure, isn't it?

Rihanna

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »
I agree with JessicaJameson.

The best way is to get to the root of the problem to find a solution: keep the place clean. If you don't attract the pest in the first place, then you don't have to kill!

If like in your case the rats are already there, the next best thing is to do a puja. Jessica named the ones that you should do.

The amount of negative karma accumulated from killing many rats will depend on the four conditions of karma:
1. Intention - do you need to kill them? do you look forward to killing them?
2. Object - there is the rat to kill.
3. Action - killing them itself. how many are there?
4. Completion - do you rejoicing after the rats are dead?

These are questions to ask yourself.

valeriecheung

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Re: Killing Pest
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 06:38:03 PM »
I believe no matter how there always options to choose, i totally agreed may decide to release rats else where instead of killing them. To avoid rats staying around should maintain cleanliness all over the places not only for temple. This issue will non stop if do not have positive and correct attitude for all the things we done. This topic is not only to discuss the motivation of killing correct or false and action taken to solve the problem, maybe at the beginning to prevent this happen is better.