Author Topic: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already  (Read 40003 times)

vajratruth

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2012, 07:04:39 PM »
Dear TG,

Thank you very much for your letters. You state your opinion very well and it is a pleasure to read your thoughts although I may not agree with you.

But there are a few observations I have made:

1.   The fact that this post and discussions herein have gone on for so long is wonderful. That fact that you are still being allowed to enter a site populated by practitioners whose enlightened Protector you unashamedly deem to be a spirit, is wonderful. This I presume, is due to the goodwill of the administrators of this site, and the general believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and should be allowed to express and practice their belief without fear of harm.

Should this site be run by people of similar witch-hunting mind as the CTA, you will no doubt be hunted down, beaten and persecuted. Such is the way and treatment of the CTA towards people who do not surrender to their bullying, as I have observed.

You here, are the beneficiary of the dharma that the people here practice.
 
2.   When you accused forumers here as being disharmonious, it got my interest and so I went to check.
What I discovered was a vibrant forum where people voiced their thoughts and opinions. Someone like you posits an opinion and someone else raises doubts and challenges that opinion. Back and forth they go and in the meantime, people like me observe and learn.

We expand our mind and we are prompted to analyze what is being said and we gain better clarity of the subject matters being discussed.

The “disharmony” you accused this forum of having is actually the debate that takes place at the heart of all practitioners’ training. This “disharmony” is same in spirit and purpose as the debates that take place in the monastery courtyards, as an integral component of a monk’s learning.

One other thing stood out. The ONLY difference in opinion is the role and true objective of His Holiness The Dalai Lama in imposing the ban.

There is no dissention in the belief that Dore Shugden is a Dharma Protector and an enlightened Buddha.
How mistake you are TG.

3.   “If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be”?

Are you seriously asking this question? Is the Dharma you learn one that makes you comfortable in this life? Is the Dharma you learn one that keeps you in your easy zone and never challenges you but instead keeps you locked into the very sensation that traps you in Samsara?

TG, you remind me of the Romans soldiers and the Pharisees as they mocked Jesus after nailing him to the cross. They said if he was the Son of God, why did his Father let this happen?

Well, we know now that had Jesus gotten off the cross, there would have been no religion based on faith and readiness to undergo trials for one’s belief. 

The practice of the great Dorje Shugden is not one of wanting wealth and comfort and safety in our meaningless and mundane lives. That would be like worshipping any worldly spirit. If Dorje Shugden were to be merely a worldly spirit, then it may be obliged to show it power by manifesting fake victories for it practitioners in worldly affairs.

When we rely on this Buddha, we are prepared for Dorje Shugden to arrange circumstances that are BEST and most CONDUCIVE for our dharma practice to grow and be strong. If what is conducive for our spiritual growth is to undergo difficulties in order for our minds to transform, then so be it. Is there an easy path to enlightenment?
Trials and struggles like the ones Shugdenpas are undergoing build perseverance and from perseverance, faith is strengthened and it is this strength that keeps the Dharma pure otherwise the teachings of the Buddha would bend and fold at every resistance in order to pass. Our faith must hold in spite of any resistance, not because there is no resistance. This is logic. This strength that Shugdenpas show keep Buddhism pure.

This difficult walk and this suffering TG, puts us on the very same path and experience as the Lord Buddha who also suffered in pursuing the truth. For that I am happy for every suffering practitioner of Dorje Shugden.

It is whilst reading a paragraph on your post, when you asked why doesn’t Dorje Shugden “fight or challenge” the Dalai Lama, that I became even more convinced that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. Dorje Shugden doesn’t fight the Dalai Lama because  (i) it is not in the nature of a Buddha to fight. The Buddha did not get up to hurl arrows back at Mara. On the other hand, it would be in the nature of minor gods and worldly spirits to fight.

And (ii) Dorje Shugden doesn’t fight the Dalai Lama because he wants us to have the important realization that His Holiness The Dalai Lama is NOT THE ENEMY. No one external to us is ever the enemy. The enemy of Dorje Shugden practitioners is the weak mind that picks samsaric comforts; it is the feeble mind that refuses to undergo difficulties for the Dharma; it is the wavering and disloyal mind that has no faith in the Guru and the lineage. It is the mind that choses mundane comforts over spiritual growth. It is the mind that makes a mockery of oaths made to our Guru in pure devotion.

Take note, the enemy of Dorje Shugden is the very same enemy of the Dharma. Not The Dalai Lama. So why fight His Holiness?

4.   Is Dorje Shugden’s practice growing? Definitely, but not just in numbers.

Numbers alone do not indicate that the religion is growing. Nor do numbers indicate that the belief is correct. For if that were to be the case, then we should all lay down our malas, bells and vajras and instead bow towards Mecca.
We all know that we are live in degenerate times where popular lifestyles and the pursuit of material wants take people further and further away from the Dharma. At times likes this you need strong practitioners of Dharma to uphold and spread the Buddha’s teachings while keeping it pure to the Vajrayana tradition. You need practitioners who are unafraid of difficulties and hardships, which are unshakeable in faith and unwavering in upholding the greatest pillar in the Tradition, i.e. Guru devotion, to spread the teachings.

For pure Buddhism to grow, you need to have practitioners of Dorje Shugden. How else can pure Buddhism grow in degenerate times?

So, what was the purpose of the Ban? If His Holiness The Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara, which I believe His Holiness to be, then there is only one logical answer:

To separate the wheat from the chaff; to separate those with Guru Devotion from those who are corrupt in their devotion; to isolate those with pure faith from those without. And to show present and future students where to find Gurus who practice and therefore can genuinely teach the undisputed foundation of spiritual attainments – Guru Devotion.

Time will show the 14th Dalai Lama Jetsun Jamphel Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso to be the greatest of all in wielding the powerful instrument of skillful means. Look at his result in spreading Buddhism into the most populous country through the vehicle of the Dorje Shugden ban. A country whose Government once viewed religion to be poison, now embraces and even promotes the teachings of the Je Tsongkhapa.

5.   TG, I do agree with you on one point. That is, true practitioners of Dorje Shugden should do more to take this cause into the world media, into the streets and into our personal network.

You are correct. No matter how much has been done, there is always more we all can do. Thank you for the reminder.




Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2012, 05:51:58 PM »
For us and for everyone else to check, growing in a Dharma way is very different than growing in a spiritual way. For one, numbers are not the issue here. It is quality over quantity. It would not benefit anyone or Buddhists in any way if everyone was a buddhist but nobody carries themselves as one or does not act accordingly to what the Dharma taught. If that is the case, then it does not even represent Buddhism well.

Being a follower of Dorje Shugden does not mean that we are special or that we are against the Dalai Lama, it is just that we happen to be people who value our teachers who has given us so much compassion, care and direct teachings more than we value the words of another teacher who is more popular but has not benefitted us directly much. Because it is the teacher that is after all Vajradhara himself.

It has been mentioned repeatedly that we need to have certain qualities and meet certain criteria in order to be considered as real Buddhists, such as accepting the law of karma (and even then, there are funny people out there who says you're not obligated to accept anything to be buddhists....), so what makes us Dorje Shugden practitioners is not praying to Dorje Shugden but keeping our samaya, vows, promises, faith and applying the teachings.

Dorje Shugden is not and will not die and neither will his practice simply because there are very dedicated people who are not swayed by political influences and give up on Dharma just because it would be a lot more easier to do so. We may go low for a while and keep a low profile but the practice still keeps going on and it will grow from strength to strength because dedicated people will always attract the same kind of people with them.

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
Tenzin Gyatso.... how you spoil the name of the very person that you are trying to protect and defend. Do you think the Dalai Lama really wants someone to go around destroying other people's faith in their practice, creating doubt in people in their teachers and practices etc? I don't think so. You show the world that your teacher has taught you badly, to go around criticising other practices and lamas.

Did you think for a moment that the "lack of news" on the Shugden front is precisely proof that it is successful. There is stability, there is calm and harmony. Shugdenpas are showing the world who they really are - peaceful, patient, tolerant and strong practitioners. It seems only the Dalai Lama supporters continue to vent their venomous spleen at the world, making hateful remarks towards Shugdenpas or anyone who doesn't follow THEIR ideology and THEIR practices. What a shameful reflection you make of your own teachers - as if this is the kind of intolerant person that the Dalai Lama has taught you to be.

Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.

Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 06:04:21 AM »
Tenzin Gyatso.... how you spoil the name of the very person that you are trying to protect and defend. Do you think the Dalai Lama really wants someone to go around destroying other people's faith in their practice, creating doubt in people in their teachers and practices etc? I don't think so. You show the world that your teacher has taught you badly, to go around criticising other practices and lamas.

Did you think for a moment that the "lack of news" on the Shugden front is precisely proof that it is successful. There is stability, there is calm and harmony. Shugdenpas are showing the world who they really are - peaceful, patient, tolerant and strong practitioners. It seems only the Dalai Lama supporters continue to vent their venomous spleen at the world, making hateful remarks towards Shugdenpas or anyone who doesn't follow THEIR ideology and THEIR practices. What a shameful reflection you make of your own teachers - as if this is the kind of intolerant person that the Dalai Lama has taught you to be.

Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.

Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.


On that note, he also seems to try to pressure and bully us to accept his view and when everyone refuses he seems to get frustrated as well. It is not a good reflection of the person whose view he's trying so hard to protect and defend. I do commend his efforts tho because without his writing we would not be able to learn so much about how then anti Shugden people think.

As time passes there will be more and more Dorje Shugden monasteries and this website will report them, and they will be so much bigger than the monasteries of the politically correct ones for a few reasons: because the ban helped trained the Shugdenpas to be more resilient and resourceful, and also because Dorje Shugden's energy and force to make the Dharma grow is very strong.

the ban will be lifted in 4-5 years and that is not exactly a long time. The ban is coming to an end very very soon and when that happens interesting things in many Buddhist centers will happen and many of them will come groveling back to Dorje Shugden for help and support and those who have been supporting Dorje Shugden all along will just grow bigger than those who prefer to be politically correct than to follow their teachers.

At this time it would be really fun to see what will happen to people like TG who are so against Dorje Shugden now. Will they eat their words and regret what they did now, or would they go against HHDL now (since he already lifted the ban and would probably promote him even further). Hmm. Interesting scenario. When the ban is lifted I'll bring out my popcorn and watch.

shugdenpromoter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
    • Email
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 02:18:27 PM »

Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.

Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.


Dear Beggar,

YES!!!! Sometimes, silence is really is louder than words.  I cannot help but agree with you.

Just look at the current Trijang Rinpoche. .......it seems like there is not much activity with Trijang Rinpoche but I have heard that he has started to travel as of last year which is a good sign of the Lama progress.  Yes, no doubt he is still young but the final word will be when Trijang Rinpoche opens his mouth.

Just look at his achievements in all his previous life
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12916

In this current incarnation, no doubt he is still young, I have seen his teaching, I have heard from the monks and his students what he has done. To me, it is definitely the action of the same Trijang Rinpoche's mind stream from all his previous life.

With regards to Mr Gyatso question, who will take over Geshe Kelsang when he dies......... not necessary that someone replaces him physically. But I truly believe all the lama are working together to spread Shugden. Geshe Kelsang has pave the way for a lot of younger lamas to spread Shugden. He has built a very strong platform for Shugden practitioners.

How high lamas gather together to spread Shugden is a amazing tactic for the sake of all sentient beings.






With regards to the

DS Star

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 03:21:08 PM »
Oh seems like TG has backed down...

With so many proofs to refute his claims, TG can't seem to find anymore 'proofs' to back his initial statements... how pity!

From the beginning, all his so-called claims were his own bias arguments, nothing solid. This website itself is definitely a proof of how strong DS practice is now... look at all the articles and reports on the activities of DS practice. The latest being this article about the DS initiation given to thousands of Tibetans in Amdo, Tibet.

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039

Just take a look at the numbers of DS practitioners in this video, no need to argue anymore TG... just wave your white flag. Period.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2012, 07:12:25 AM »
Oh seems like TG has backed down...

With so many proofs to refute his claims, TG can't seem to find anymore 'proofs' to back his initial statements... how pity!

From the beginning, all his so-called claims were his own bias arguments, nothing solid. This website itself is definitely a proof of how strong DS practice is now... look at all the articles and reports on the activities of DS practice. The latest being this article about the DS initiation given to thousands of Tibetans in Amdo, Tibet.

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039

Just take a look at the numbers of DS practitioners in this video, no need to argue anymore TG... just wave your white flag. Period.


In more ways than one, TG represents the archetypical anti Dorje Shugden crusader. They tend to know only one side of the story, and are generally not well informed about the entire issue yet they do their best to discourage others from Dorje Shugden and some of them resort to brow beating or even damage others emotionally, spiritually or psychologically to get things to go their way.

However when questioned further and presented with evidence that goes against what they believe, they tend to back out and keep quiet because they dont know much or they dont know better to back their claims. They usually believe in something because someone said so without much knowledge or research beforehand on the subject matter. Its their faith and fervor that fuels them, not knowledge and wisdom.

So therefore, when someone produces facts and logical explanations to counter them, they tend to repeat themselves, break down or get frustrated with the whole process and eventually give up and perhaps in a later time in the future realize their mistakes as logic and knowledge leave stronger imprints on a person's mind as opposed to temporary fervor.

Knowledge and wisdom will always overcome warped truths and smokescreens. There must be a reason for HHDL to give misinterpretations of masters who are "against" Dorje Shugden as opposed to "solid proof" (because there is none to start with) so that the whole ban will wash off easily people's minds when the ban is lifted and the truth is told. It would be fun to see where people like TG stands after that.

Vajraprotector

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 610
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 10:19:15 PM »
From the Shugden camp, the truth is there is nothing happening anymore. Everything is basically died or at a standstill. Shugden cannot win over what is correct.

All the monasteries have been purified of Shugden's influence and nothing can oppose HHDL's compassionate and brave stance. I am sure it was no easy task to remove the Shugden influence. But HHDL recieves no benefits for himself by doing this. No money, no reputation and therefore it must be for the welfare of the general practitioners. I still say Kalarupa is not dead, not ineffective, and should be the focussed practice of Gelugs as a protector. Read up on Kalarupa's qualities, nature and function especially in relations to one of the three main protectors of the Lam Rim and Lam Rim lineage. Understand Kalarupa better.

He is not only the protector of the Gelug lineage, Lam Rim but also the protector of the Yamantaka tantras. If you engage in Yamantaka practice, Kalarupa comes as a practice automatically as he is very important for removing obstacles on both the outer and inner levels. Inner being attachment to subtle grasping of the I which is the root cause of samsara. Kalarupa is no other than Yamantaka in a protective form. I was explained this by a Geshe at the Tibetan Library. It blew my mind away and thought to share it here.   ;)

It's not too late to take heed and adopt Kalarupa.

Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Can we just take heed and adopt some other deities as we like when we encounter another deity's practices and give up the ones given by our Guru?

Can we give up on our Guru when someone criticise our Guru? In that case, then perhaps I should drop my Guru who stops practising Dorje Shugden and adopt a Guru who does?

Can we give up on Vajrayogini (Trijang Rinpoche) and adopt Avalokiteshvara (His Holiness the Dalai Lama instead despite our samaya with Trijang Rinpoche?

Also, why not choose 6 arm Mahakala the protector of many lineages (Sakya, Nyingma, Gelug and Kagyu) who is definitely "better" since he is also beign practised in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism compared to this "lesser known" Kalarupa?

These are not possible due to the commitment and promise that one has made to the Guru to uphold the practise given by the Guru. Some, their Gurus have gone into clear light or passed away! We have no choice to pick and choose.

Gabby Potter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2015, 11:01:11 PM »
Lord Dorje Shugden's practise is definitely not dying, in fact, more and more people are practising this sacred practise. Please go ahead and ask Dorje Shugden practitioners, I am 100% sure that they only receive benefits from this compassionate Protector.

fruven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2015, 12:41:36 AM »
Because we have more affinity with Dorje Shugden's practice will grow bigger and bigger. Of course there some who has connection to him. Denying it doesn't it make the affinity become less.

Besides what is being popular or less popular have to do with whether the practice is good and beneficial for others rather than you?

Dondrup Shugden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2015, 12:18:56 PM »
The importance is not whether Shugden's practice is dying or growing, but what the Shugdenpas have gained in the practice.  Lots of merits to have suffered for their faith especially those directly discriminated and divided from others and shunned upon.

Another point which seem to be missed is how is anyone to know the actual number of practitioners when so many among the Tibetans under CTA jurisdiction are hiding.

As a Shugden practitioner, I do not worry about the practice dying but only for the freedom to worship without fear of negative repercussion.  Let the freedom happen and we shall then count the numbers.