Author Topic: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already  (Read 36876 times)

Tenzin Gyatso

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FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« on: May 28, 2012, 01:34:23 AM »

FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already

The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
 :(

Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious

Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along??  :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.

People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death.  :-[

Resources and Stamina ending

Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Media doesn't consider this important

Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.

Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.

Central Tibetan Administration not concerned

I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side.  :( :'(

Silenced

Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.

Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united.  :)





wang

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 02:42:11 AM »

Silenced

Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.

Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united.  :)

Your respond in this forum keep reminding me about those Chinese Communist propaganda in the newspaper before late 70s.  They are exactly the same as yours be frank: just repeat of top down message without own's mind.  If you say these are what you really think and you don't have any job in Dharamsala writing these out of other purpose, I feel deep sorry for you...


Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 02:49:36 AM »

Your respond in this forum keep reminding me about those Chinese Communist propaganda in the newspaper before late 70s.  They are exactly the same as yours be frank: just repeat of top down message without own's mind.  If you say these are what you really think and you don't have any job in Dharamsala writing these out of other purpose, I feel deep sorry for you...

Wang, what have you done for the Shugden practice to grow? Are you doing anything? More importantly, what can you do? Can you or your group counter HHDL successfully. YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO. The Shugden movement is dying for sure. His Holiness has the support of the majority of Tibetan Buddhists all around the world and that is not propaganda.
It's not too late. Join HHDL and practice pure Buddhism.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 02:56:55 AM by Mana »

Ensapa

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 03:02:38 AM »

FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already

The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
 :(


Not really. Unless you're blind or just ignorant, even tho Geshe Keslang has stopped with the lawsuits and protests (which i believe instigated more people to investigate about Dorje Shugden), someone else is continuing the lawsuits on the ban to Dalai Lama. Kundeling Rinpoche, in case you have not read about, has taken the helm and is firing lawsuits against the ban. read it here http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0 Geshe Keslang Gyatso has retired as the spiritual head of NKT by the way and his role has been taken over by someone else, also in case you have not heard, since 2009: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement oh wowzers its on wiki!


Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious

Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along??  :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.

People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death.  :-[


How sure are you that the dissidents from the older posts are in reality people like you who pretend to be Dorje Shugden followers but spread lies about Dorje Shugden and try to create dischord? I have caught a few older posts where they were oblivious to the facts and spewed contorted facts about Dorje Shugden before. Anyways, those people have left because they are in fact double agents and the remaining ones are really here to talk about Dorje Shugden.

Serpom and Shar Ganden is, unfortunately for you, growing and expanding while Ganden Shartse remains stagnant, thanks to their new abbot. Just visit their websites and compare which one is more dated and which one is more current: http://shargadenpa.org/ http://www.gadenshartse.net/ I believe that speaks LOADS.


Resources and Stamina ending

Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.


Again, the time to protest have passed and now it is the time for another strategy to lift the ban. We are not against His Holiness, we are merely against the ban. Again, you proved my point. It is precisely that Dorje Shugden is enlightened that he tolerates His Holiness being harsh on him. Which other protector can tolerate such insults and surpressions?


Media doesn't consider this important

Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.

Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.


All Tibet related issues often fizzle very fast in the media. In fact, all issues fizzle very fast in the media. So whats your point? Again, we're not against the Dalai Lama, but we aim to educate people the truth about Dorje Shugden, against the lies that the CTA has spread against Dorje Shugden, mainly based on inconclusive evidence and twisted facts. Also, have you noticed that EVERY SINGLE TIME HIS HOLINESS SPEAKS ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN, HE PAIRS IT WITH THE ADVICE TO CHECK EVERY TEACHING BEFORE ACCEPTING? Either that he is asking you to examine Dorje Shugden before accepting his advice, or asking you to examine his advice before accepting, which means you will have to end up examining Dorje Shugden anyway, then decide. This is what this site is for.


Central Tibetan Administration not concerned

I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side.  :( :'(

Even if they are practitioners, do you think they will confess to an outsider like you? looks like you havent read about this yet: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0

On the contrary, more and more people in China are practicing Dorje Shugden, even in Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore. China is the world's populous nation. The world does not consist of english speaking countries only, you know.

Silenced

Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.

Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united.  :)


On the contrary, many of these Lamas are still coming back despite claims that they are praying to a spirit. Do you really think they can come back as high lamas if they are praying to a spirit? Ho Ho Ho. Perhaps their students are just grouping to build a huge temple to Dorje Shugden: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169 Bigger than Ganden, Sera or Drepung can ever build for Kalarupa.

It's easier to disprove people with real Dharma practice, rather than trying to do it the Jehovah's witness way.

And oh, the Dalai Lama is not the pope and we are not Catholics, The Dalai Lama is the temporal and spiritual leader of the Tibetans, not Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetan. Dharamsala is not Vatican.

Now repeat after me:

The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.

and repeat.



I am so amused that you missed out so many facts about Dorje Shugden that you overlooked, they were all over the forum! How can we have a proper discussion if you discount so many facts from the equation? Biased views, like those of the CTA do not work here because we're armed with facts and not opinions. Dreyfus's paper about Dorje Shugden by the way, is just full of his opinions on Dorje Shugden is wrong and contains 0 <---this much solid facts about Dorje Shugden.

Anyways, thank you for typing out this amusing post. I really had fun!

wang

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 03:06:47 AM »

Wang, what have you done for the Shugden practice to grow? Are you doing anything? More importantly, what can you do? Can you or your group counter HHDL successfully. The Shugden movement is dying for sure. His Holiness has the support of the majority of Tibetan Buddhists all around the world and that is not propaganda.

I suppose there is no need of anyone doing anything, those with master practice it continue to practice it(out of their own will for sure), those not practice it just continue with their own practice.  Enough is enough, no one has the right to intervene into any individual's own spiritual practice, not even HHDL. 

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..


Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 03:43:53 AM »

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..

HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.

Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader?  It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.


yontenjamyang

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 04:45:11 AM »

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..

HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.

Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader?  It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.



So what follows with your logic is that the Pope is more superior than HHDL and also, Obama and many world leaders are more superior than HHDL! That is your logic. It is flawed. Numbers of followers and the ability to meet world leaders by itself does not tells us of anyone's attainment. Thats is not to say HHDL is not attained! I has no doubt about it. But then the same with many High Lamas. They are also as attained as HHDL but do not have as many followers and cannot meet so many leaders. That doesn't mean they are not as attained!!

What you see is only your perception. Very superficial! You see things at a discreet point in time. Look to past and also the future. The view may be very different. In future, the results may also be different. Due to our collective karma, all the efforts of HHDL to gain recognition for Tibet as in independent state or autonomous state is in vain!. Not his problem but yours and mine.

So, just do our practice and don't bother others if you are not attained. Follow your Guru's instructions. That is the basis of Tibetan Buddhism practice.

Positive Change

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 04:50:29 AM »
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* Bravo Ensapa!!! Well refuted and rebutted! Truly TG has no basis and is just spewing generalizations and sweeping statements.

For the sake of your own clarity TG, I believe you should try and do as Ensapa says, read up more on this forum. It is filled with unbiased views and thought and sharing. It has substance unlike long winded posts purely designed to defame and spread somewhat derogatory comments on certain High Lamas.


FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already

The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
 :(


Not really. Unless you're blind or just ignorant, even tho Geshe Keslang has stopped with the lawsuits and protests (which i believe instigated more people to investigate about Dorje Shugden), someone else is continuing the lawsuits on the ban to Dalai Lama. Kundeling Rinpoche, in case you have not read about, has taken the helm and is firing lawsuits against the ban. read it here http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0 Geshe Keslang Gyatso has retired as the spiritual head of NKT by the way and his role has been taken over by someone else, also in case you have not heard, since 2009: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement oh wowzers its on wiki!


Imagine this... The whole of China propitiating Dorje Shugden spreading into all the Chinese communities around the world. If this is dying, I wonder what living is? Check these out: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1946.msg27725#msg27725
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1855.0



Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious

Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along??  :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.

People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death.  :-[


How sure are you that the dissidents from the older posts are in reality people like you who pretend to be Dorje Shugden followers but spread lies about Dorje Shugden and try to create dischord? I have caught a few older posts where they were oblivious to the facts and spewed contorted facts about Dorje Shugden before. Anyways, those people have left because they are in fact double agents and the remaining ones are really here to talk about Dorje Shugden.

Serpom and Shar Ganden is, unfortunately for you, growing and expanding while Ganden Shartse remains stagnant, thanks to their new abbot. Just visit their websites and compare which one is more dated and which one is more current: http://shargadenpa.org/ http://www.gadenshartse.net/ I believe that speaks LOADS.


You should really read up the previous threads/postings to get a true and accurate account of what actually has transpired. I am inspired when I first joined the forum. It is NOT one sided and is based on factual accounts and with basis. It gives us the opportunity to "see" the bigger picture if we were not so disillusioned to think or see with blinkers!

I do not consider this to be a splinter at all. Do take a good look: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11433



Resources and Stamina ending

Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.


Again, the time to protest have passed and now it is the time for another strategy to lift the ban. We are not against His Holiness, we are merely against the ban. Again, you proved my point. It is precisely that Dorje Shugden is enlightened that he tolerates His Holiness being harsh on him. Which other protector can tolerate such insults and surpressions?


I believe the time has come for a more efficacious and harmonious method to be deployed. Even HHDL has toned down his "refute" of Dorje Shugden as can be seen/heard here in this video. In fact it was almost playful and jovial in a joking manner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inZslkmx03c&noredirect=1


Media doesn't consider this important

Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.

Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.


All Tibet related issues often fizzle very fast in the media. In fact, all issues fizzle very fast in the media. So whats your point? Again, we're not against the Dalai Lama, but we aim to educate people the truth about Dorje Shugden, against the lies that the CTA has spread against Dorje Shugden, mainly based on inconclusive evidence and twisted facts. Also, have you noticed that EVERY SINGLE TIME HIS HOLINESS SPEAKS ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN, HE PAIRS IT WITH THE ADVICE TO CHECK EVERY TEACHING BEFORE ACCEPTING? Either that he is asking you to examine Dorje Shugden before accepting his advice, or asking you to examine his advice before accepting, which means you will have to end up examining Dorje Shugden anyway, then decide. This is what this site is for.


We are indeed NOT against HHDL and this forum serves as a wonderful portal to share points and learn about this THE protector of our time. Seriously, if Dorje Shugden were not so newsworthy, why do you TG even bother to refute? Why don't you just let it slide or blow away in the wind as you suggest it would.


Central Tibetan Administration not concerned

I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side.  :( :'(

Even if they are practitioners, do you think they will confess to an outsider like you? looks like you havent read about this yet: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0

On the contrary, more and more people in China are practicing Dorje Shugden, even in Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore. China is the world's populous nation. The world does not consist of english speaking countries only, you know.


LOL if it really didn't bother them do you think they would even have heard of the website let alone comment on not thinking it is of any concern. I am very sure the CTA are constantly on the lookout especially on this forum to see what's up... After all, one cannot form an opinion without first researching and having basis right... or perhaps some people do? ;)


Silenced

Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.

Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united.  :)


On the contrary, many of these Lamas are still coming back despite claims that they are praying to a spirit. Do you really think they can come back as high lamas if they are praying to a spirit? Ho Ho Ho. Perhaps their students are just grouping to build a huge temple to Dorje Shugden: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169 Bigger than Ganden, Sera or Drepung can ever build for Kalarupa.

It's easier to disprove people with real Dharma practice, rather than trying to do it the Jehovah's witness way.

And oh, the Dalai Lama is not the pope and we are not Catholics, The Dalai Lama is the temporal and spiritual leader of the Tibetans, not Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetan. Dharamsala is not Vatican.

Now repeat after me:

The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.

and repeat.


If it is really true that these Lamas are 'silenced', why do they keep coming back? One such example among many others like His Eminence Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who as you well know is the recognised reincarnation of HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=424.0




I am so amused that you missed out so many facts about Dorje Shugden that you overlooked, they were all over the forum! How can we have a proper discussion if you discount so many facts from the equation? Biased views, like those of the CTA do not work here because we're armed with facts and not opinions. Dreyfus's paper about Dorje Shugden by the way, is just full of his opinions on Dorje Shugden is wrong and contains 0 <---this much solid facts about Dorje Shugden.

Anyways, thank you for typing out this amusing post. I really had fun!



Now repeat after me:

The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.

and repeat again!!!! ;)

wang

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 04:56:18 AM »

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..

HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.

Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader?  It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.

- Having a lot follower, meeting leaders of many nations, be undisputed leader of Tibetan etc. doesn't imply HHDL be Bodhisattva or has gained attainments. 
- Having a lot follower, meeting leaders of many nations, be undisputed leader of Tibetan etc. only imply HHDL be political leader of Tibetan.
- I don't know whether HHDL is Bodhisattva/has gained attainments or not.  But for sure, and be 100% in line with Lamrim teaching, if one is  fortunate enough to have a guru with qualities as outlined in Lamrim Chemo, it is blessing of the Buddha, and in tantric terms, HE IS Buddha.  That's nothing HHDL can compared with.

I don't agree with a lot themes in this forum(eg. China be the promotor of DS, Kangxi be incarnation etc.), but that doesn't mean I agree to damage of  the basic value of Tibetan Buddhism(ie. guru devotion) as put forwarded by HHDL in this conflict.  The fact that as early as in 1978 did HHDL raise his objection in DS practice, but only by force in 1996(and afterwards) could he 'convert' most Gelukpa high lamas into 'non-DS' practitioners tell the truth: just by rationale most Gelukpa high lamas, under teachings from Trijiang Rinpoche/Song Rinpoche, did not follow HHDL's advice if they have freedom of choice.

Positive Change

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 05:01:18 AM »

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..


HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.

Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader?  It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.


So TG... I agree with you wholeheartedly that HHDL is highly attanined. In fact he is none other than Chenrezig... Hence, do think about it on this very basic level, if so, do you think HHDL can be wrong or disillusioned? I do not think so... hence my question to you is, did HHDL not propitiate Dorje Shugden in the past? In fact he composed this beautiful prayer even: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346

So if one were to truly believe HHDL's attainments and obvious clairvoyance, surely HHDL cannot be wrong and hence surely there must be a bigger picture!!!

hope rainbow

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 07:26:29 AM »
TG, I can't just read your post without giving you my thoughts.

FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
 :(

What will safeguard the purity of Buddhism is clean Guru samaya.
Without it lineage is impossible.

HHDL, apparently contradicted his Root Guru Trijang Rinpoche by instauring a ban on the sacred practice of the enlightened protector Dorje Shugden. Apparently, thus, the samaya is broken...

This is why I rose in this forum before the possibility that HHDL did actually put the ban in place following an instruction from Trijang Rinpoche himself. Why not? It would make sense with everything else in place, such as Trijang Rinpoche instructing his other student Samdong Rinpoche to serve the Dalai Lama all the way, etc...
Then this ban is actually an expression of Guru devotion and is clean samaya. And HH is demonstrating sacrifice and generosity to all by even damaging his reputation with this ban, to serve the Buddhist teachings of Nagarjuna clearly taught by Lama Tsongkhapa and spread it through China (with Dorje Shugden), after He has spread it to the world.

To me this is skillful means of enlightened beings in action, right before our eyes.


Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious
Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along??  :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.

This forum is not a forum among Buddhas who have no more flaws.
This forum is among practitioners, and maybe a few Buddhas, I wouldn't know...
How can we expect practitioners to be perfect?
How can we expect them to be free from conceptualization, free from being forced to see their world within right and wrong?
I am sure that HHDL also has discussions and disagreements going on among his followers, among his attendants, among his students. But of course.
If the students were perfect, there would be no need for Dorje Shugden or the Dalai lama to work tirelessly.
So to claim that there is disharmony because students are not perfect and then, by extension blame Dorje Shugden for it is a faulty short-cut that is not at your level TG.

People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirit practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death.  :-[

First of all, what you call the "Shugden movement" is nothing less than the Gelug, the Kadampa!
Reading your post, it sounds like it is a lunatic "movement"... Like "flower and peace movement", or "new age movement"...
We are talking here about a holy lineage stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni, a pure lineage. We are talking about the view on emptiness as clearly explained by Nagarjuna and as taught extensively by Lama Tsongkhapa.
We are talking about the Lamrim.
We are talking about the Lojong.
We are talking about sacred tantric practices.
And we are talking about the Protector of this lineage, the protector of the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.
we are talking about our Buddha: Dorje Shugden!
We are talking about Manjushri!

And if it would be declining (which is not the case), there could possibly be no room in your heart for rejoicing over it. As a Gelug practitioner, your heart can only fall into sadness, dry up and crack even at the mere thought that Dorje Shugden practice could diminish.
Why? Because what are we going to pass on to the next generations? What? I don't mean any offence, but HHDL is in a human form, He has the human aggregates, and he will pass away one day. Who can continue His enlightened work afterwards? Who?

But no, HHDL also manages to subjugate the very nation that puts Him down, and He does that before leaving His current aggregates. When he will leave, Vajrayana would have been planted on every nation, even in China, with the assistance of Dorje Shugden, who is Manjushri.

By the way, HHDL himself did say that the practice is growing, and He even named a few countries in which it is becoming very strong. I am sure you do not have the mind to contradict HH.

And yes, there is still so much more to do, the road is still long, and there should be no effort spared to give all sentient beings at least a seed for enlightenment. There must be more effort from the side of the practitioners. The recognition of Dorje Shugden is growing, the practice of the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa is growing, but I agree with you, it should grow more, there should be more efforts.

Resources and Stamina ending
Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

I hope this is a sign that the ban is dissipating.
You see, at one point, the ban won't be needed anymore, and growth must then come from other methods.
have you thought that, perhaps, this is what was happening?

Media doesn't consider this important
Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.

Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.

dixit: " Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late. "

Central Tibetan Administration not concerned
I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side.  :( :'(

I personally think that the CTA should be focusing on the enormous task that is to care for the exiled Tibetan community on all secular levels and remain independent from the religious agenda. When the CTA is in charge of the Tibetan community in exile, it means they are also in charge of the Dorje Shugden practitioners. A DS practitioner should even be able to become an executive of the CTA, there should be no reason to discriminate between Tibetans in exile on the basis of their religious practice.
Why would the CTA worry about the Dorje Shugden in any other way than worrying about them being descriminated!

Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.

Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united.  :)

But we are one family! I don't see us in any other way!
Please help us in sending this message across: WE ARE ONE BIG FAMILY! We have the same practices, we have the same lineage, for a lot of us we even have the same Gurus.

sonamdhargey

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2012, 07:55:23 AM »

Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is  more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset...  I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..

HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.

Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader?  It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.

Hello Tenzin Gyatso, Greetings to you :)

I'm amazed with how you measured HHDL's attainments. How can you measure a Lama's attaiments through the numbers of followers? What you said does not make sense. You've claimed that HHDL is for more superior than many Lamas, therefore there are some Lama's are more superior than HHDL?

We never doubted HHDL attainments and HHDL have propitiated Dorje Shugden in the past and maybe still do but secretly :) who knows? Therefore HHDL does have his reason for doing this for now. There will be a bigger picture! You watch and see.

By the way how do you conclude that we are disharmonious and make wild allegations that some of us argued about Dorje Shugden and the bigger picture and left? You must be highly attained to have the Clairvoyance to make that allegations. (I don't mean to be rude but really?) The forum is OPEN to public and anyone can post, argue, discuss & debate. Some may agree, some may argue, some maybe angry, some disagree & etc.

Please get your facts right before you speak. Read our website and our forum, it have all the facts. Please read them through carefully.

Ensapa

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 08:43:41 AM »
I really laughed out so loud when i read through Tenzin Gyatso's post. Stop giving His Holiness a bad name!! cmon! I am sure you can do better than rely on delusional, make believe and nonexistent facts, half truths, lack of information just to convey your point right? No offense but you sound like someone who is living in their own world who is trying very hard to convince others (or perhaps yourself) that you're right and a part of you knows its wrong?

I mean, nothing wrong with saying that Dorje Shugden is bad or what, but do make sure that there are facts. Saying that Shar Ganden and Serpom is not growing and does not prove anything is funny because it shows that either that you honestly dididnt read about them, or that you're no offense, delusional. Because they ARE growing faster and bigger than Ganden Shartse and Sera.

If you do want to prove a point, tell us something we already know and something that can be researched. Half truths, where you take opinions without taking in facts is just hilarious indeed coz 1) Everybody knows you're wrong, and yet you keep insisting that you're right and 2) You make His Holiness look bad because you are behaving in a way that contradicts His Holiness.

Which, I am not surprised as the CTA fed their scholars with the wrong information about Dorje Shugden and the complete lack of dates, names, places, just the description of the event. That too, we have no way of verifying if it is accurate or made up, or was based on a true incident but distorted to implicate Dorje Shugden. As a result, we get people with information that contradicts the actual situation.

Zach

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 11:11:22 AM »
Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 11:19:42 AM »
Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.