Author Topic: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?  (Read 16843 times)

Manjushri

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H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« on: May 26, 2012, 05:05:18 PM »
Recently someone told me that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being.

I get so irritated when people come to me and tell me what an enlightened master should/shouldn't be, and from their own view judge whether great teachers and lamas are enlightened or not. Come on, it's like who are we to judge when we ourselves are not enlightened? As if we know what it is like to be enlightened.

Usually I don't reply to their remarks, but what would be an appropriate reply? How would you reply? My reply is usually who are we to judge, but then, they just drift on and on about their judgements on a lama/teacher.

dondrup

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2012, 06:53:16 PM »
The more you try to respond to these remarks that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being, the more irritated you would become!  There are so many people in the current World who don’t even bother or care who HH Dalai Lama is or whether he is enlightened or otherwise! 

We should have compassion for these people who have negative thoughts and remarks on HH Dalai Lama due to their ignorance.  We can’t forcefully challenge them to change their fixed views.  Only through skillful means like feeding them with correct information about who HH Dalai Lama is can they turn around!  Eventually, when the obscurations in their mind are cleared, they will realize the truth of who HH Dalai Lama is.

vajratruth

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2012, 08:02:37 PM »
For me it is virtually impossible for ordinary people to recognize an enlightened being.

After all what do we look for? We may follow Maitreya's "Filigree Of Realizations" which speaks of the 10 Forces of a Buddha's mind (such as omniscient knowledge of what is right and wrong and also knowledge of the karmic causes of everyone); the 4 Guarantees about which a Buddha is without fear (which includes the fearlessness of guaranteeing what we must do to remove all our mental obscurations); the 4 perfect Awareness which includes awareness of all dharma and all knowledge; and the 18 Unshared Features such as the Buddha's absorption on voidness never drops.

Or do we look for the 32 marks of a Buddhas body such as fingers and toes that are connected by a web of light? Setting aside the impossibility of examining the Dalai Lama's body closely, we don't even know the Buddha's mind.

Trijang Rinpoche in his Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, clearly warned us not to judge the actions of enlightened minds from the common view that is stained with our own perceptions. Making reference to the Nirvana Sutra, Trijang wrote that if need be a Buddha may even emanate as an evil being if it serves the further the dharma.

When we look at the Dalai Lama's actions in relation to the Dorje Shugden matter, we instantly think that it is not an action of an enlightened being. How can a Buddha teach people to go against their Guru and to break vows and cause harm to people? And yet, doesn't the Dalai Lama's actions make us go and investigate the matter further, only to discover the true greatness of the great Protector, Dorje Shugden and the list of luminaries that this Buddha comes from?

When I think of what the Dalai Lama has done (ban the practice of the very Dharmapala that helped him escape the Chinese) and not done (subdue the demon if indeed Dorje Shugden is one) and what he has said (essentially that a worldly spirit that cause a Buddha to lose his life)...it all does not make sense.

But when I see the net result of the Dalai Lama's actions, which was to propel this Protector practice all around the world, then I am inclined to view his actions as that of a very skillful and enlightened mind.

I would still be very interested to know how manjushri's friend can be so certain that HHDL is not an enlightened being.

ilikeshugden

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 01:47:40 AM »
The more people tell you that Dalai Lama is unenlightened then the more you get irritated. Learn to let go from that feeling. They can say whatever they want and you can believe what you believe. If you want to educate him or her, approach in a nice way and not a very forward way. But in this case, you can say, "His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is Enlightened, why would you think not?" Then, try to have a healthy conversation.

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2012, 03:36:42 AM »
I would also point out to the person that we ourselves are not on the level to judge who is enlightened and who isn't. Really it is pointless getting annoyed with someone who is trying to make a judging remark and not want to accept some true facts even after we have pointed out to them. I agree with vajratruth that it is not possible for us ordinary beings to recognize an enlightened being, so we should have full trust in our very own Guru to guide us on our practice.

Carpenter

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2012, 05:43:20 AM »
ok, i think instead of arguing whether Dalai Lama is enlightened or not, we should look at what Dalai Lama taught, isn't this has more impact to us as compare to whether is he enlightened?

first of all, why are we here? are we here to find out whether this Lama or that lama is enlightened or not? or we are here to learn Dharma? if we are here to learn Dharma, even an ordinary person who are not enlightened, as long as his knowledge is better than us, he can already be our teacher. Unless our motive of coming here is different, we come to create politics in Dharma centres, in Buddhism, then i will understand why you wanted to know whether the lama is enlightened or not.

Vice Versa, if someone come and challenge you, try to pick up your fault, wanted to put you down, how would you feel? if you don't like it, why wanted to do it to other people? Please think what really matters to you, enlightened Lama? or learning Dharma?

And my bottom line is, whether the Lama is enlightened or not, in short sentence:

...IT IS NON OF YOUR BUSINESS...

sonamdhargey

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 07:08:57 AM »
Well, how do we defined enlightened? Does he or she knows what enlightenment meant? Assuming we know what enlightenment meant, is it very important that HHDL or any Lamas  must be enlightened? I believe what is most Important are their actions and conducts. We are in no capacity to say who is enlightened or not as we don't even know what enlightenment meant.

Everyone have the right of their opinion and it is no point being upset or irritated with what others have said. But if their opinions are valid and can help you with another perspective and you understand better then good if not, you don't have to take it too personally.

Aurore

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 08:42:06 AM »
To me, this subject is liken whether there is god or no god. Is Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Muslim the correct religion? Does aliens exist? Does spirits exist???

Yes, it can be frustrating when you have seen a spirit and someone else does not believe in it. Everyone has their own opinions, faith and believes. We will just need to learn to accept that. Just because we experienced something and believe in something OR know that something is the truth, doesn't mean everyone will have the same opinions.

How I would answer is ... "This is my beliefs and it's up to you whether you believe it or not. So respect my beliefs as I respect that you do not believe that HHDL is an Enlightened Being."

That way, everyone remains harmonious regardless their backgrounds, belief system or views. Just my 2 cents.

pgdharma

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 09:06:00 AM »
It is very irritating when someone mentioned that HHDL is not enlightened and frustrating when their stubborn and fixed mind refused to except any explanations. For this type of people, I would not bother to justify to them.

Who are we and on what level are we to judge HHDL?. What proof do they have that make them say HHDL is unenlightened? If they refused to accept HHDL as enlightened let them be. They have a right to their own opinion. I will stay by my opinion and trust that HHDL is enlightened and continue with my spiritual path and they can pursue whatever they wish for.

kris

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 10:21:57 AM »
I am sure there are many who would regards Buddha Shakyamuni as evil too :) I am also quite sure there are some other religions who said since He didn't believe in some higher being, He is now in hell...

Jokes aside, I would reply that:

1. Look at the results He created, in terms if Dharma is spread in His presence. What I see is that, because of Him, Dharma has been spread wide and far in the western countries, and with this Dorje Shugden twist, directly or indirectly, Buddhism has risen again in China.

2. He ask people to be kind to each other.

3. He encourage world peace.

RedLantern

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 10:37:19 AM »
Our minds have fallen so far under the influence of self destructive emotions that these attitudes are welcomed and  promoted.We practice Dharma with the motivation of benefitting others and to tame our ego.If someone talk bad about Dalai Lama and we argue,they create bad karma for themselves and we shouldn't let them.Interesting how we are being tested again and again how to discern the truth.We have to align ourselves with a choice that we have to make individually.

Tenzin K

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 10:58:54 AM »
I’m definitely not qualified to tell who’s enlightened but will only assume based on my own perception. Each individual has their way and perception. 
For me what important is their teaching and what they have done in benefiting others.
For Dalai Lama he frequently states that his life is guided by 3 major commitments
1.   Promotion of basic human value or secular ethic in the interest of human happiness
2.    The fostering of inter-religious harmony& the welfare of the Tibetan people
3.   Focusing on the survival of their identity, culture & religious.

HH Dalai Lama has been receiving so many awards & honors from so many country and education institution. This is definitely a recognition of HH teaching and contribution towards the spirituality.

Galen

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 11:22:53 AM »
There is no point in arguing with people about whether the Dalai Lama is enlightened or not. We are not enlightened ourselves, how are we going to convince them. Just ask them to look at what the Dalai Lama does and his results in the world. Are those the results of an enlightened being? Are their actions towards all sentient beings are based on values of compassion, love and kindness? Are the qualities inherent with the Dalai Lama qualities of a Buddha, or someone who you think has gained Buddhahood? Ask them to judge for themselves.

If your friend's views of an enlightened being is someone who can float and meditate on clouds, then you can't win. Maybe you can doctor a picture and show it to him. Hehe.

Positive Change

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 11:25:08 AM »
It is indeed frightening that a person could even begin to doubt HHDL. What I would like to know if this person is indeed Buddhist and I certainly would love to hear his argument as to why he/she thinks HHDL is not enlightened.

Surely if one were that convinced, one would have arguments or facts to support such accusation! Truly absurd rubbish coming from a person who has not absorbed or incorporated the Dharma into their lives.

Hope such absurdity will cease and we all embraced our differences.

Q

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Re: H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2012, 11:39:19 AM »
Recently someone told me that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being.

I get so irritated when people come to me and tell me what an enlightened master should/shouldn't be, and from their own view judge whether great teachers and lamas are enlightened or not. Come on, it's like who are we to judge when we ourselves are not enlightened? As if we know what it is like to be enlightened.

Usually I don't reply to their remarks, but what would be an appropriate reply? How would you reply? My reply is usually who are we to judge, but then, they just drift on and on about their judgements on a lama/teacher.

The moment we have benefitted from a teaching given by any monk/nun, from that point onwards we should have reverence for him/her... whether or not we take them as our spiritual teacher is not the point, but respect should be there. This is the same for any lay person that offers us spiritual advice. Enlightened or not, he/she is still wiser.

We cannot avoid people that have a strong tendancy to put down the Dharma, or High Lamas. I would say it is very sad whenever someone does that, because we know, somewhere in his/her past they have done something to make them feel very distant from Dharma.... which is why even when they see High Lamas, or listen to Dharma, they get wrong view from it... or see too much faults in it... So unfortunate. We should feel sorry for them... help them if can, but if we can't then just put a stop to it so they don't create anymore harm to themselves.