Author Topic: Abortion - ok for the country's good?  (Read 18780 times)

negra orquida

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« on: May 20, 2012, 03:38:14 PM »
When i was in highschool we were shown this video of how the Chinese authorities enforced the "one child policy" on the people.  Compared to rural folk, there is not much compliance problems with the city folk.  The video showed how the authorities literally hunted down this farmer woman who was 7 months pregnant with her 2nd child, and the next scene showed her in the hospital post-abortion.  The commentary was that the authorities counselled the woman and convinced her to have an abortion.

On one hand I'm sure the mother did not want to kill the baby, or she would not have kept it until 7 months.  She probably knew full well the consequences of having another child after the 1st child, but accidents do happen! Anyways I can't remember if she had planned for the 2nd baby or not.

On another hand the reason for the authorities' rather extreme stance was meant for the greater good of all countrymen, which is to prevent the problems caused by over population.

Abortion is killing, no doubt about that.  I'm just wondering what is the "karma score" here for Authorities vs Woman?  What would you have done if you were in the woman's position?

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 04:26:00 PM »
Women in this position, in China, have little room for choice.
That limited choice is also karma.

Abortion is killing.
Karma of killing is short life, abrupt end of life, being killed, or also having loved ones killed/short lived/or experiencing an abrupt-life-end.

So what could possibly be the collective karma for a society that implement abortion at a large scale?
If not the same results for the society and at a large scale?

Positive Change

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 05:02:39 PM »
Women in this position, in China, have little room for choice.
That limited choice is also karma.

Abortion is killing.
Karma of killing is short life, abrupt end of life, being killed, or also having loved ones killed/short lived/or experiencing an abrupt-life-end.

So what could possibly be the collective karma for a society that implement abortion at a large scale?
If not the same results for the society and at a large scale?

Dear HR, I disagree to a point... it is true that women in these positions do not have the choice of keeping the child... however, they did have the choice to have a baby. Surely they should have thought about that before having an "accident" and thus create the causes for such a scenario to happen.

Am not saying the Chinese Government is right in enforcing their policy, i am merely pointing our that there are repercussions to our actions and we cannot push the blame onto another.

And then there is of course the collective karma as you mentioned which given the severity and multitude would be hard to sweep under the carpet. Perhaps the karma is slowly coming back as there are not many eligible women left to marry as men outnumber the women in China by quite a ratio. Hence the opposite effect of a baby boom will happen and given the size and rate China is expanding, there might be some serious repercussions in the future!

Namdrol

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
    • Email
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 05:25:15 PM »
This is really an age old question but there is really no real solution until now.

Do you like what you see in India? There is no strict population control, thus th poverty is so prevalent, the poorest have the most mouths to feed, and the vicious cycle continues...

I think scientist really have to  come out with a contrceptive method that is 100% effective, yet reversible, I think that's the only solution to the dilemma of abortion and over-population.

Positive Change

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 05:42:21 PM »
This is really an age old question but there is really no real solution until now.

Do you like what you see in India? There is no strict population control, thus th poverty is so prevalent, the poorest have the most mouths to feed, and the vicious cycle continues...

I think scientist really have to  come out with a contrceptive method that is 100% effective, yet reversible, I think that's the only solution to the dilemma of abortion and over-population.

Perhaps... but you know what, we are once again trying to find the cure for the symptom where we should really find the cure of the root problem. That I find is simply education... not purely education on safe sex but on wholesome and basic core human values which is almost non existent in this degenerate age.

If we all viewed the sexual union of male and female as a natural means of pro-creation rather than pleasure pro-sports, perhaps then the problem of over population in the world would cease! But then again that is merely my optimistic view on human kind. What happened to us? Are we not the most intelligent and in the most opportune condition? Sometimes I seriously doubt if we even know our full potential... I guess as with potentiality, it could well go either way...

kurava

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
    • Email
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 02:38:05 AM »
The woman concerned already experienced the result of her action  :

She and her husband know the consequences of pregnancy in addition to the quota allowed for each couple. Yet, they decided to take a risk and this is the play of the law of karma in the worldly sense - under the law ,the woman had to abort the fetus  . I understand and sympathize the physical and emotional traumas the poor woman went through but similarly karma in spiritual context is also without any bargain or leniency.

Understanding the man made law and law of karma, taking heed of the consequences of non compliance with these laws will save us from unnecessary pains and sufferings. In this sense, the operation of samsara and spiritual laws have no difference.



Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 04:39:18 AM »
Limited choice or not, the 'karma score' is the same. After all, it is because of karma that she is in that position in the first place (I know this sounds mean but... truth). And so, just like everything in samsara... it comes back around, most of the time worst as we are propelled to make horrible decisions due to the condition we are in.

Just by ending that baby's life... so many people are involved in such an unfortunate event... the mother, the police that chased her and forced her to abort, the doctors that did the procedure, the nurses, the father as he did not stop it... it is endless...

If it was me? well... not that i want to sound cocky, but such a situation would not happen to me (or so i think... karma is unpredictable isnt it?)
I believe strongly in prevention rather than cure and I do not believe in producing babies since there's so many homeless children which I can adopt to give them a better life... if she and her husband took measures to prevent the pregnancy, then such an unfortunate event would not take place.

yontenjamyang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • Email
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 09:34:07 AM »
I remember that there are officially more males then females in China. This is attributed to unregistered female births or infanticide of female babies. The reasons are the one-child policy and the traditional Chinese "value" of having a male line to carry the family name.

While I can understand the overall reasons of population control and quality of life, I certainly abhor abortion unless the life of the mother is threatened.

The karma score for the authorities vs woman? Since the woman is the mother, I doubt she will rejoice the abortion. Hence the four factor are not complete for her. The authorities, in particular the officials who persuaded her and the medical staff who did the abortion may have the 4 factors completed. Hence, the authorities have the heavier karma.

pgdharma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 03:39:24 PM »
China having a one child policy is not going to help the country in the long run. Most Chinese prefer to have sons to carry on their family name so that they can pass their inheritance or business to the male heir thus the problem of infanticide of female babies arises. Baby girls are killed so what will happen in the future? There will be more males than females or no females in China and those males who want to marry need to find females from other countries.

The "karma score" here for Authorities vs Woman? In the first place, she and her husband should take precaution to prevent any accidents. As the saying goes, "prevention is better than cure". However, as it was too late and it already happened, it is so sad that she had to go for an abortion. It must be very disheartening for her especially when she is 7 months pregnant. I think that the karma for the authorities is much heavier than the woman as I don't think the woman rejoice in the action of killing.

brian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
    • Email
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 05:16:55 PM »
It has been long known that China has enforced the one child policy and i do know that there were a lot of Chinese families who have more than one child. I condemn the abortion/killing of the fetus by the authorities simply because the child has the right to live if it is already a reality that a fetus has been conceived. it is a life being. Whatever punishment can be enforced onto the responsible parents but never to the innocent fetus! i totally disagree the abortion in such manner. it is an inhumane action for me and it does not do the country good as such actions will tarnish the image of the country to the eyes of the world.

buddhalovely

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • Email
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 12:22:07 PM »
Female infanticide has existed in China for a long time, and although the One Child per Family policy has added to the problem, it didn't cause it.

The One Child Policy was introduced by the Chinese Government in 1979 with the intention of keeping the population within sustainable limits even in the face of natural disasters and poor harvests, and improving the quality of life for the Chinese population as a whole.

Under the policy, parents who have more than one child may have their wages reduced and be denied some social services.

Despite the egalitarian nature of Chinese society, many parents believe that having a son is a vital element of providing for their old age. Therefore in extreme cases, a baby is killed if it is not of the preferred sex, because of the pressure not to have more than one child.

But ethically speaking, such actions are demonic as we are killing lives of lost souls. The karma accumulated for such actions are as equal to killing a living, breathing human baby.

bambi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 722
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 06:07:41 PM »
To me, killing is killing no matter how it is explained. The pregnant lady knowing very well that if she is caught, they will bring her to the hospital and abort the child whether she wants it or not. Even if she got pregnant without knowing, it is still killing as she is the reason that the baby have to be killed. The karma will still be on her, the baby and the officials that were involved. Directly or indirectly.

http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm (read more about it here)

Karma, be it wholesome or unwholesome, is modified by the conditions under which the actions are performed. In other words, a wholesome or unwholesome action may be more or less strong depending upon the conditions under which it is done. The conditions which determine the weight or strength of karma may be divided into those which refer to the subject - the doer of the action - and those which refer to the object - the being to whom the action is done. So the conditions that determine the weight of karma apply to the subject and object of the action. Specifically, if we take the example of killing, in order for the act of killing to have its complete and unmitigated power, five conditions must be present - a living being, the awareness of the existence of a living being, the intention to kill the living being, the effort or action of killing the living being, and the consequent death of the living being. Here too, we can see the subjective and the objective conditions. The subjective conditions are the awareness of the living being, the intention to kill and the action of killing. The objective conditions are the presence of the living being and the consequent death of the living being.

Similarly, there are five conditions that modify the weight of karma and they are persistent, repeated action; action done with great intention and determination; action done without regret; action done towards those who possess extraordinary qualities; and action done towards those who have benefited one in the past. Here too there are subjective and objective conditions. The subjective conditions are persistent action; action done with intention; and action done without regret. If one does an unwholesome action again and again with great intention and without regret, the weight of the action will be enhanced. The objective conditions are the quality of the object to whom actions are done and the nature of the relationship. In other words, if one does a wholesome or unwholesome action towards living beings who possess extraordinary qualities such as the arhats, or the Buddha, the wholesome or unwholesome action done will have greater weight. Finally the power of wholesome or unwholesome action done towards those who have benefited one in the past, such as one’s parents, teachers and friends, will be greater.

diamond girl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 06:12:29 PM »
Oh dear, we are really trampling on a sensitive issue... I used to think of abortion as Pro-choice, I guess too much influence of the American way of choice. However, understanding karma and also responsibility, I have to say that abortion is a choice as in prevention. I know that there are some religions which do not permit contraceptive, which is so archaic and total rubbish.

Humans have a brain which is a privilege. Thus, my take on this is, prevention is better than cure. As for China and its policy of one child per stomach of a woman, I feel that it is inhuman, yet when I look at India, I do not think that China is that unkind in its policy. It is still the choice of the people to abort to comply because of the old-fashined thinking of a boy being important. Again, it is down to choice. They can choose that a daughter is just as important.

Today, China suffers the ills of their policy. They have more men and women. Socially, great...women can have more choice. But on the flip side, the men are needing to marry abroad which can also accumulate future social issues. There is just no winning....Only Karma.

sonamdhargey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 09:22:41 AM »
Abortion is killing. Nothing can justify that action as good. I agree that China have to imposed 1 child policy to control birth rates to avoid over population as it is now it is very populated already and may have negative consequences when over populated. Any human have the intelligence to refrain from abortion by not getting pregnant. There are many ways to prevent pregnancies and it boils down to choice.

I totally agree with some of you here that it is a choice to get pregnant or not. Therefore abortion can be avoided and need not blame the policies of 1 child system as a population control measure. However the intentions of the policy maker to force abortion when a family has more than 1 child, that actions itself creates negative karma but the abortion can be avoided thus the the person who knew about the policy not only creates negative karma for themselves they also create a chain reaction of negative karma for whoever is involved in the abortion.

dondrup

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
Re: Abortion - ok for the country's good?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »
No mother of any children will harm or even think of killing their very own fresh and blood.  Similarly for this 7-month pregnant woman who was forced to abort her baby.  The one-child policy makes life difficult for many parents who would want to have more than a single child.  But to forcefully abort a child because the parents had exceeded their quota is truly inhuman.  It is sadistic!  No matter what birth control policy that a nation has, abortion should not be considered.  To hunt down the woman and then ‘counseled’ her to abort her baby is very cruel.  Rather than killing, the authorities could have implemented a better option e.g. a fine system to penalize the parents. 

From the karmic point of view, China and its nationals collectively have to bear the consequences of adopting the one-child policy.  We cannot imagine how many countless innocent unborn babies were aborted due to this policy.  We simply cannot figure out the amount of heavy negative karma accumulated through these actions! Have karma ripened on these parents who could have aborted or killed many babies in their past lives?  What karma had these babies reaped in their past lives to suffer the consequences of being aborted?  The vicious cycle continues!