Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not a valid Geshe?

[DharmaDefender]

Was reading some anti-DS literature, you know to get my daily dose of drivel, when I came to a point thats oft repeated. Anti-Shugdenites keep leveling the claim against Geshela that hes not a valid Geshe because hes been expelled by Sera, but I cant help but think thats a load of hogwash.

What doesnt make sense to me is this - when he was being tested at his examinations, he was deemed good enough to be a Geshe. But when he promotes a deity that Sera Monastery officially doesnt agree with, he is kicked out and just like that, automatically all of his knowledge becomes invalid?!

Doesnt that mean EVERYTHING the teachers in Sera taught him (and all of the other Geshes of his class) is wrong? Because EVERYTHING he knows comes from them, and apparently what he knows is invalid...therefore what they know is invalid too.

Someone please explain to me how that makes any logical sense!

[Big Uncle]

That's just rubbish.

What's the qualifications of the people who say these nasty things about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? Have they studied as much as he has and do they hold a Geshe Degree? What gives them the privilege to judge whether or not Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a Geshe or not?

Yes, he had been expelled but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the knowledge. Anyway, he alone had spread Dharma farther and wider than most of the other so-called 'authorized' Geshes in Sera anyway. On top of that, he was one of the disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. That lineage carries on. That's simply amazing.

[Zach]

Three Points to settle this argument.

1. Trijang Rinpoches long life prayer to Geshe Kelsang
2. The Dalai lama's and his tutors forwards in his books.
3. Sera monastery where capable of saying if Geshe Kelsang was inauthentic more then 30 years ago its only on the behest of impure political activity that they expelled him.

[DharmaDefender]

That's just rubbish.

What's the qualifications of the people who say these nasty things about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? Have they studied as much as he has and do they hold a Geshe Degree? What gives them the privilege to judge whether or not Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a Geshe or not?

Yes, he had been expelled but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the knowledge. Anyway, he alone had spread Dharma farther and wider than most of the other so-called 'authorized' Geshes in Sera anyway. On top of that, he was one of the disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. That lineage carries on. That's simply amazing.

You have a point there actually Big Uncle. If you look closely, (with the exception of His Holiness the Dalai Lama), all the lamas discredited for their methods of teaching (Chogyam Trungpa), lack of qualifications (Lama Yeshe), and lack of official support (Gangchen Rinpoche) are the lamas whove done the most to spread Buddhism all around the world.

Yeah Lama Yeshe and Gangchen Rinpoche practice Dorje Shugden, but Chogyam Trungpa doesnt and hes done an immeasurable amount for Dharma in the United States. What does that tell you about their motivation? Sure shut up the critics.

[dondrup]

Do you anti-shugdenites have anything to show?  What contribution have you made for Dharma?

Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (VGKG) is an accomplished and prominent Buddhist Master in the World today. 

He has established the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) - one of the most successful Buddhist centres in the world today with over one thousand centres in forty countries spreading the pure lineages of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden. VGKG had published more than eighteen important Buddhist Texts which had been translated into many other languages of the World.  His books made Buddhism easily accessible for the Western World and now the whole World.  VGKG has also established study programmes to train Dharma teachers as well as for the systematic study of Lamrim, Lojong and Mahamudra. This is a huge contribution as VGKG has left a legacy of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden Teachings intact in NKT for the benefit of future generations. 

I have mentioned a few but VGKG has many more accomplishments that we could have listed down here.  In short, it is much more meaningful to look at the results and attainments than academic achievements.  Even without a Geshe title, a monk or lama can be very accomplished and attained for e.g. Gen Nyima of the Ganden Monastery who is an accomplished Yamantaka practitioner without any Geshe title!

Lastly, do bear in mind also VGKG is not any ordinary lama, VGKG is one of the heart students of HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. If VGKG didn’t have what it takes to be a qualified spiritual guide, HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche would not have entrusted VGKG the mission to spread Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden lineages to the Western World! Due to his pure Guru devotion, VGKG has fulfilled many of his guru’s wishes despite encountering insurmountable obstacles.
 
It is beyond words how much VGKG has benefited others from his enlightened activities.  Please continue to remain and turn the Wheel of Dharma, Geshe-la!

[Ensapa]

I have never heard of a geshe certification being revoked before. What is revoked is only the status in the monastery and it does not remove the knowledge and validity of the geshe's capabilities so although the monastery no longer recognizes the geshe, the geshe is actually still a geshe in the sense of his knowledge and capability to teach and benefit others.

again, the content written in those websites are a reprisal against certain NKT members who are very hardcore against HHDL and who has made many negative statements against HHDL and as a backlash, some people who are very devoted to HHDL retaliated by making nasty statements against GKG. To be honest, this is nothing more than karma manifesting itself.

I dont think that GKG is invalid or whatever people claim because it is just a title. He has gotten the geshe degree before and that proves that he has the knowledge and capability to teach. The changing of a title means nothing because logically, how can the change of a title remove and empty out GKG's knowledge and capabilities? If some people truly believe that, I feel sorry for them.

Anti DS literature are well known to contain enough BS to fertilize a whole farm for a year, mainly because they are mostly poorly researched, biased, and contains more fiction than fact other than being nothing more than an opinion piece rather than something solid. I wouldnt believe those even for a bit.

[triesa]

What you all said and shared here have gravity.

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso being expelled from Sera Monastery DOES NOT mean that he is not a qualified teacher nor his knowledge acquired through all those years under his root gurus went down the drain.

A title is just a tilte........if we are just attach to a title but do nothing, it is worst than not having the title at all.

I would like to share a few names here, in fact all of them are successful billionairs in the world, who are drop outs from college. They all made great impact in the world that we are living in.

Bill Gates : Dropped out of Harvard, founder of Microsoft
Steve Job : Dropped out of Reed College, founder of Apple Inc & Pixa
Michael Dell : Dropped out of University of Austin, Founder of Dell Computers
Marc Zuckerberg : Dropped out of Harvard, Founder of Facebook

These people made more impact than anybody on how we consume the content and use it to benefit the technology that we are all enjoying on a daily basis. Who could then say without a degree or a title or a recognition, could not make ripples to mankind?

Same with Geshe Kelsang Gaytso, single handedly and together with his dedicated students, he created thousands of centers around the world and published hundreds of books that propagate the traditions and lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, then who are we to critizise him of not having obtained a Geshe title??

Results are better proof of who you really are.

[Galen]

Geshe-la is a valid Geshe! No doubt about that! The fact that he was dispelled from Sera does not make all his qualifications and knowledge invalid! And he is not dispelled because of wrong teachings but because of differences in protector practices. How can that be a basis of Geshe-la being a not-valid Geshe-la.

Just like what others have said, look at his results! He has published loads of books that are distributed worldwide. He has a following of student all over the world. His centres are all over Europe. There's is nothing anyone can do to dis-credit his knowledge and his passion to spread Buddhism.

Let nay-sayers say what they want because the truth always prevail. And the truth is Geshe-la's results and his contribution to the Buddhist world.

[VS]

What you all said and shared here have gravity.

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso being expelled from Sera Monastery DOES NOT mean that he is not a qualified teacher nor his knowledge acquired through all those years under his root gurus went down the drain.

A title is just a tilte........if we are just attach to a title but do nothing, it is worst than not having the title at all.

I would like to share a few names here, in fact all of them are successful billionairs in the world, who are drop outs from college. They all made great impact in the world that we are living in.

Bill Gates : Dropped out of Harvard, founder of Microsoft
Steve Job : Dropped out of Reed College, founder of Apple Inc & Pixa
Michael Dell : Dropped out of University of Austin, Founder of Dell Computers
Marc Zuckerberg : Dropped out of Harvard, Founder of Facebook

These people made more impact than anybody on how we consume the content and use it to benefit the technology that we are all enjoying on a daily basis. Who could then say without a degree or a title or a recognition, could not make ripples to mankind?

Same with Geshe Kelsang Gaytso, single handedly and together with his dedicated students, he created thousands of centers around the world and published hundreds of books that propagate the traditions and lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, then who are we to critizise him of not having obtained a Geshe title??

Results are better proof of who you really are.

Hands and legs up in agreement with you Triesa!! :p)

Titles, names, qualifications are just a piece of paper. People can take away or revoke your names and titles. but they can never rob you of your knowledge, skills and good motivation.

Despite being expelled from Sere monastery, Geshe-La continued to spread the Lama Tsongkhapa teaching and Dorje Shugden practice untiringly. Geshe-La's centre is one of the most fast growing centre in the world benefiting so many people around the world.

For those who are fast in criticizing, please hold your horses and do a self-check! Are you doing your part in spreading the Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings and Dorje Shugden practice? If not, please keep your comments to yourself.

[lotus1]

Fully agreed that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a valid Geshe. It is a title given to him as he passed the test of Geshe and equipped with the necessary knowledge and capability to teach and benefit others. In addition, he was dispelled from Sera due to differences in Protector practice that was given by his Guru and not due to he has any misconduct or any flaw in his knowledge.

Furthermore, Geshe is just a title. To me, I would think most important is to look at his results on how far & wide he has spread Dharma and benefiting others. High lamas would manifest in whatever way they should be to spread Dharma and we lay person may not understand it at all.

Other than Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Chogyam Trungpa and Gangchen Rinpoche are great examples of high lama that without title but still spreading Dharma and benefited many people!

I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso a lot due to his contribution in bringing Dharma to many. May he remain long and always turn the wheel of Dharma.

[Ensapa]

Fully agreed that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a valid Geshe. It is a title given to him as he passed the test of Geshe and equipped with the necessary knowledge and capability to teach and benefit others. In addition, he was dispelled from Sera due to differences in Protector practice that was given by his Guru and not due to he has any misconduct or any flaw in his knowledge.

Furthermore, Geshe is just a title. To me, I would think most important is to look at his results on how far & wide he has spread Dharma and benefiting others. High lamas would manifest in whatever way they should be to spread Dharma and we lay person may not understand it at all.

Other than Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Chogyam Trungpa and Gangchen Rinpoche are great examples of high lama that without title but still spreading Dharma and benefited many people!

I respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso a lot due to his contribution in bringing Dharma to many. May he remain long and always turn the wheel of Dharma.

It's not just a title to you, it is just a title in reality and it does not reflect or represent that if you study someone who has the Geshe degree, you will progress faster in your Dharma practice. In fact, some Dharma texts speak of hundreds of Geshes who ended up in the 3 lower realms for not practicing what they have learnt. I would not want to 'judge' a Lama on whether or not he has a valid Geshe's degree but more towards his lineage and whether or not I have affinity with him karmically to study the Dharma with.

[dsiluvu]

Three Points to settle this argument.

1. Trijang Rinpoches long life prayer to Geshe Kelsang
2. The Dalai lama's and his tutors forwards in his books.
3. Sera monastery where capable of saying if Geshe Kelsang was inauthentic more then 30 years ago its only on the behest of impure political activity that they expelled him.

I think we all know that Geshela is authentic and well, this is just another plot made up by anti-shugdenpa fanatics that just cannot control their "compassion and rejoice" for another Shugden devotee that has been successful in spreading the Dharma and of course Dorje Shugden practice too
 
I think even without the Geshe title... the results of his works speaks louder then anything and sums it all... There are 1100 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world! Even though the have been constantly challenged by the exile Tibetan Govt, making Geshela one of the top 5 wanted Lamas by the exile govt. He gets no support and is totally cut off from the exile Tibetan Govt, yet His work and legacy still continues to grow! This is the power of Dorje Shugden I believe.

[Zach]

Three Points to settle this argument.

1. Trijang Rinpoches long life prayer to Geshe Kelsang
2. The Dalai lama's and his tutors forwards in his books.
3. Sera monastery where capable of saying if Geshe Kelsang was inauthentic more then 30 years ago its only on the behest of impure political activity that they expelled him.

I think we all know that Geshela is authentic and well, this is just another plot made up by anti-shugdenpa fanatics that just cannot control their "compassion and rejoice" for another Shugden devotee that has been successful in spreading the Dharma and of course Dorje Shugden practice too
 
I think even without the Geshe title... the results of his works speaks louder then anything and sums it all... There are 1100 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world! Even though the have been constantly challenged by the exile Tibetan Govt, making Geshela one of the top 5 wanted Lamas by the exile govt. He gets no support and is totally cut off from the exile Tibetan Govt, yet His work and legacy still continues to grow! This is the power of Dorje Shugden I believe.

Their arguments are invalid Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has done more work to establish the Dharma then almost any other person alive today. Specifically he has worked to establish a pure presentation of Kadam Dharma which is now flourishing throughout the world with Dorje Shugden as the main protector, Despite all difficulties and obstacles Geshe Kelsangs works continue to grow and reach many.

To prove the power of Dorje Shugden let us imagine for a moment how many wrathful Puja's will have been performed against Geshe Kelsang to harm him or stop his spread of Kadam Dharma. Dorje Shugden has protected him and spread his teaching throughout the 10 directions.

Remember that ridiculous practice from Namkai Norbu whom teaches that a wrathful terma will protect against the " Gyalpo " Shugden and his followers from his influence, how impotent this practice must be to even protect oneself let alone others if even an accomplished practitioner of the Yamantaka Tantra like Gen Nyima recommends Shugden for eliminating the Tantric Magic of those who would do one harm.

[lightning]

I have seen Geshe Kelsang Gyatso books and was inspired to look for a Vajrayana Guru. His instructions are very simple and clear to understand. His works are outstanding. After a few years of receiving Vajrayana training, I referred to his works for some translating purpose. I felt that His instructions aligns with the Gelug Tradition.

In past Potowa was not conferred a Geshe title, but was recongized as a Geshe due to His learning and teachings. Lord Shantideva was an ordinary monk and rediculed but upon tested He preached the A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way Of Life which was past down till today.

In the past, our lineage master, Guru Deva or Maha Guru (I could not remember who?) was not famous and being looked down upon, before seeking him for instruction on 5 science, someone went to seek His Guru's instructions wether the former is qualified? His Guru just replied Go ahead and his Guru devotion is good! After training under Guru Deva or Maha Guru, the Guru's qualities was found to be outstanding after champoining the Buddhism debate. Many Lamas came to seek him as a Guru and He became very busy!

Do not judge a Lama by his tittle but by His learning!!!

[yontenjamyang]

Who cares. One you learn to cycle you never really lose it. Once a Geshe always a Geshe. Besides the teaching in him is never lost. He has already done so much to spread the Dharma and the results is for all to see. The benefits from his work can never be doubted. So they can spread all kind of lies and take away his degree but they can never that away his knowledge, attainments and work for others.
Hi is a living example of living for others. This is real Dharma practice. Real Dharma. We should all follow in his footsteps. Spread Dharma, spread the protector for He is the protector of this degenerate age.

Who cares if Geshe is a Geshe. Lets just call HIM His Holiness.