Author Topic: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?  (Read 12383 times)

Q

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Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« on: March 08, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »
How many times have we heard someone say something like this: "I couldn't be a millionaire this life, well... I'll work hard for it in my next life" or something along that line. I know I have... and I know it is even more common when it comes to spirituality.

With no disrespect, the Christians always say there is only this life, no believe in reincarnation. However, there are holy texts that talks about reincarnation in Christianity, but it has been deleted off the common bible that is circulated to the common people. The reason for doing so is to prevent people from seeking redemption later, but to seek redemption NOW as it's their only chance.

As for the Buddhist dilemma, do you think that since we are aware of the fact that reincarnation exists has made us less enthusiastic in walking towards Enlightenment in a much greater speed? After all, there is always 'Next Life' right? (although it's not confirmed to be born in the human realm again...)

Reincarnation exists, its a fact and not a variable. However, if ever the thought of reincarnation makes us slack in our spiritual practice, are there 'antidotes' for it? Are there ways we can use or practice to ensure we are 24/7 skewed towards diligent spiritual practice rather than the diversion of an untrained mind, viewing this as a so called 'loop hole' to get lazy?

vajratruth

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 07:13:29 PM »
Yes, it is very common for people to wish to accomplish greater things in the "next life". The problem I have with that thinking is this - if we cannot make good use of the best opportunity we have now (i.e. the optimum human rebirth) what makes think we can in the next life.

There is also the very false and therefore dangerous assumption that in the next life, we will be born human again. We will agin have the opportunity to study and practice the dharma again. That we will again have the merits to meet a teacher who will skillfully train us towards enlightenment.

Look around us and you will see that there is no shortage of people who are doing everything they can to ensure a lower rebirth, without realizing it. We could have been them.  Look at some poor and very badly abused animals whose entire focus is merely on survival. How do they practice the dharma and gain enlightenment. I am not saying that they cannot...but it is just that much harder.

We assume too much. Therein lies our delusions and ignorance.

dondrup

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 08:41:59 PM »
The best antidote to our laziness and for taking our precious human life for granted is to meditate on death and impermanence.  Our mindfulness of death and impermanence should not slack after our formal meditation sessions.  When we fully realize death and impermanence, we will not waste our time and be lazy.  We will utilize every single moment to practise Dharma to ensure a good human rebirth.  We will create the causes for a good human rebirth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments. If we gain further and deeper understanding about Dharma, we will strive even harder to gain liberation and full enlightenment than just a good human rebirth.

negra orquida

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 04:51:38 PM »
Quote
As for the Buddhist dilemma, do you think that since we are aware of the fact that reincarnation exists has made us less enthusiastic in walking towards Enlightenment in a much greater speed? After all, there is always 'Next Life' right? (although it's not confirmed to be born in the human realm again...)

I do not think having the knowledge of reincarnation made us less enthusiastic in reaching Enlightenment asap, but our lack of appreciation on how little chance we have to be reborn as a human with the 8 freedoms and 10 endowments etc. etc., our gross overestimation of the merits we have collected in "practicing dharma".  Truly understanding a point taught by the Buddha (e.g. reincarnation) would definitely not make us more lazy!

It all boils down to: we (I admit this about myself, at least) do not REALLY believe in karma, and we secretly believe we will live forever.  If we did, we'd probably be enlightened by now!

I think some of the "antidotes" to remove our slackness in our practice is, like what dondrup posted, to do death meditation and contemplate on the preciousness of our human life regularly, if not everyday.  This would include contemplating on the sufferings of the other realms, especially the lower realms.

hope rainbow

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »
The antidote to this is in the lamrim, and it says it very clearly:

1. We don't know where we'd go after this life. But we know that there is a good probability we'd go down. I don't mean to scare anyone in saying this, it is just down to the facts. And of course, we can also trigger causes to go "UP", so there is good news too.

2. It is more difficult to reclaim a rebirth in a human body from states of existence in the lower realms than it is to get enlightened in one life-time. (think about that for a minute!)

3. To say that we'd practice in our next life is as stupid as a pauper finding a pot of gold and throwing it away saying: "I'll make use of such fortune next time I find one".

Manjushri

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »
How many times have we heard someone say something like this: "I couldn't be a millionaire this life, well... I'll work hard for it in my next life" or something along that line. I know I have... and I know it is even more common when it comes to spirituality.

With no disrespect, the Christians always say there is only this life, no believe in reincarnation. However, there are holy texts that talks about reincarnation in Christianity, but it has been deleted off the common bible that is circulated to the common people. The reason for doing so is to prevent people from seeking redemption later, but to seek redemption NOW as it's their only chance.

As for the Buddhist dilemma, do you think that since we are aware of the fact that reincarnation exists has made us less enthusiastic in walking towards Enlightenment in a much greater speed? After all, there is always 'Next Life' right? (although it's not confirmed to be born in the human realm again...)

Reincarnation exists, its a fact and not a variable. However, if ever the thought of reincarnation makes us slack in our spiritual practice, are there 'antidotes' for it? Are there ways we can use or practice to ensure we are 24/7 skewed towards diligent spiritual practice rather than the diversion of an untrained mind, viewing this as a so called 'loop hole' to get lazy?

Dear Q,

Nice topic, thanks for highlighting this! I agree with you that many people these days use what you say as an excuse not to practice. Infact, many people take things for granted and use a million and one excuses to justify for their actions so that they do not need to do what is needed, like in this case you've brought up - practise diligently. So we are always assuming that our life will extend to the next life, and assuming that we will once again gain the precious human rebirth, in our minds it is as if, the chances and the opportunities to practise or to do what they need to/want to do are endless. But it is just ourselves justifying for our laziness for if we can't do it now, what makes us think we can achieve it in our "next life"?. Not achieving the results that we desire is from a lack of drive, integrity, commitment, and so forth, therefore these habituations only get stronger, no? So then even in our next lives, we won't be able to achieve what we need/want to, it is just us deluding ourselves ever so often again.

So to your question, Q, "As for the Buddhist dilemma, do you think that since we are aware of the fact that reincarnation exists has made us less enthusiastic in walking towards Enlightenment in a much greater speed? After all, there is always 'Next Life' right? (although it's not confirmed to be born in the human realm again...)..

No, I dont think that it has made us less enthusiastic in walking towards Enlightenment, becuase as you have said earlier, with or without being a Buddhist, we already have thoughts like this ("I couldn't be a millionaire this life, well... I'll work hard for it in my next life") in our minds. Since we already have this thinking even before being a spiritual/Buddhist practitioner, we are bringing these thoughts into our practice. Therefore the object of discussion here is not about knowing whether reincarnation exists or not, it is about our attitude, our attitude of setting ourselves up to fail already.

For me the antidote is quite simple - learn up more Dharma, read up more, have a guru who can watch, guide and train you. Knowledge is key for you to push yourself to do more, practise more and rid your own delusions. Death meditation is great, but I reckon if you don't keep reading, having a guru to teach you, leearning up on the Dharma, we will also treat death meditation as an "end" so we can "better" ourselves in our next lives. Anyways that's what I think. What do you guys reckon?

Dolce Vita

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 03:56:41 AM »
For me, knowing we have many next lives did not dampen my spirit to enlightenment. In contrary, it pushes me to want to practise spirituality, in my case, Buddhism.

I am worried that if I do not practise now, I might be reborn as an animal or spirits. If that happens, it will take many another thousand of years to become a human again. If I cannot be enlightened now, I would like to be at least reborn as a human being to practise again. Besides, I would like to be reborn in a conducive environment where I can meet Dharma at a young age.

In conclusion, my pursuit in spirituality is due to my believing reincarnation.

Q

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »
Thanks all, for the replies =)

I started this topic mainly because I was curious as to how the Christians are so dedicated to their spiritual path, but for Buddhists, a large portion are truly ignorant... I suppose the people on this forum are part of the 1% of Buddhists that actually practices and contemplate on the Dharma. I'm not saying the others are bad, just that... they're like that. Anyway, while thinking about it, I took the one most significant difference between the two and thought, well... maybe that's why the results of the practitioners came out differently. Not that the Dharma is no good, but perhaps many Buddhists happen to be at that level of mindset to take things this way.

However, I must agree with what Manjushri has said. What Manjushri pointed out in his post, stating that it is a habitual mindset that we brought with us into spirituality... that made a lot of sense (to me). We're not perfect when we came to know about Buddhism, we came with all our pre-existing problems etc... and the advice everyone gave is excellent to ensure anyone that is trapped in this thought to move along their spiritual path...

I just wish there is a method or a way to help others realize the point of not waiting until the next life to practice... I know sharing knowledge with them will help, but for those that refuse to understand or listen...

Klein

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 06:02:29 PM »
For me, knowing we have many next lives did not dampen my spirit to enlightenment. In contrary, it pushes me to want to practise spirituality, in my case, Buddhism.

I am worried that if I do not practise now, I might be reborn as an animal or spirits. If that happens, it will take many another thousand of years to become a human again. If I cannot be enlightened now, I would like to be at least reborn as a human being to practise again. Besides, I would like to be reborn in a conducive environment where I can meet Dharma at a young age.

In conclusion, my pursuit in spirituality is due to my believing reincarnation.

Dear dolce vita,

I totally agree with you. Just knowing about reincarnation is not good enough if we want results from our spiritual path. When we further investigate and understand about karma and it's relation to reincarnation, we will naturally want to practise more. If we are not Enlightened in this life time, at least reincarnate as a human and continue our spiritual path.

Otherwise, it is very difficult for us to be Enlightened if we're reborn in the other realms. There are too much distractions. We'll have to wait for thousands of life times before we become human again and perhaps have the good fortune of meeting the dharma again.

DSFriend

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 03:18:43 AM »

Reincarnation exists, its a fact and not a variable. However, if ever the thought of reincarnation makes us slack in our spiritual practice, are there 'antidotes' for it? Are there ways we can use or practice to ensure we are 24/7 skewed towards diligent spiritual practice rather than the diversion of an untrained mind, viewing this as a so called 'loop hole' to get lazy?

What would you do if you found out that today is the last day of your life?
What would I do if I found out that today is the last day of my life?
What would others do I they found out that today is the last day of their lives?

We all will react differently. Some may give everything away. Some may indulge totally into what they have to please the 5 senses. Some will just do nothing...etc...

Why? Is it our karmic imprints, merits (or lack of it) which influences how we react?

Our negative karma is much stronger than our positive karma. so what is the antidote? I wish there is a quick, magical, answer.

Be diligent, consistent in studying the dharma, contemplate on impermanence and death.  if one has a Guru, it is very powerful as it will be a great inspiration for anyone to be persistent in their practice.

Tenzin K

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 08:52:23 AM »
If we believe in reincarnation it should be a drive for us to do more beneficial work such as dharma work to collect as much merit as possible.

Why?

If we believe that we will come back that is a great acknowledgment but it’s a scariest thing to know because we don’t know where we will be?  What determine where we will be in our next life is our karma. Believing in karma / cause and effect is the antidote for us to push our self to learn and practice dharma.  What we are now is determine from our previous action. What determine our future is what we are going to do NOW!

There is no point to keep looking at what we are now because it’s has been a past but what we can do now is the practical action for future. No wasting time and we just have to act now as we don’t know how much time we have or left?
I’m blessed and lucky to have Lord Shugden practices to help me in my spiritual practice.

jeremyg

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 12:03:45 PM »
The antidote to this is in the lamrim, and it says it very clearly:

1. We don't know where we'd go after this life. But we know that there is a good probability we'd go down. I don't mean to scare anyone in saying this, it is just down to the facts. And of course, we can also trigger causes to go "UP", so there is good news too.

2. It is more difficult to reclaim a rebirth in a human body from states of existence in the lower realms than it is to get enlightened in one life-time. (think about that for a minute!)

3. To say that we'd practice in our next life is as stupid as a pauper finding a pot of gold and throwing it away saying: "I'll make use of such fortune next time I find one".

When you think about what is said here, it's really scary. It it the truth.

Coming back to the main point. I do believe there is some element inside some people that there is always the next life. But after having read hope rainbow's post, maybe the chances are slim. And you will probably say the same thing to yourself in the next life, that there is always the next life. I mean you can only go down so far, before you come back up again, but that could be in millions of years. Then when you have the opportunity, you will say, maybe in the next life. And the cycle of samsara continues.

Having said that I do believe it is possible to practice slowly in each life. With each rebirth bringing you closer to the dharma, and closer to enlightenment. So for example one life you hear about the Dharma. The next life you study it. Then you meet a teacher. Then maybe in the next life you become a monk. Then a high teacher. Until you finally become enlightened.

Please let me know if that train of though is valid.

jessicajameson

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 12:32:59 PM »
@JeremyG Your train of thought is correct.

Believing in the existence of reincarnation does not at all dampen my spirit to Enlightenment. In fact, what freaks me out is that I have zero control over my next re-birth.

I will do what I do in this life - die, and then it is not within my hands anymore. Whatever I do within this life, however, is within my conscious control.

It is said that what you do in this life reflects where you will be in your next. So take me, for example, I enjoy to eat delicious food, sleep when sleepy, sit around and lounge in comfy spaces - sounds very much like a pet dog's life, doesn't it!

So lets just say I get reborn as a pet dog, it would be considered as being reborn in the 3 lower realms.

For a being within the 3 lower realms to be reborn within the human being realm again, it would be akin to a turtle popping his head into a tube within the vast ocean.

What are the chances of a turtle swimming in the big, wide expanse of the ocean to pop his head into one circular tube? Very slim.

So does reincarnation dampen my spirit to Enlightenment, Q? NOPE!  :P

vajrastorm

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Re: Reincarnation dampening our spirit to Enlightenment?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 08:11:10 AM »
I think that, as the Lamrim shows us, belief in reincarnation(in past and future lives) must go hand in hand with a belief in the ineluctable Law of Cause and Effect or Karma. Yes, we have now got our rare and precious human rebirth, with all the 18 opportune conditions for us to use this life most meaningfully to gain complete liberation from suffering for ourselves and for all mother beings. I also count myself most fortunate to have a spiritual Guide who never fails to remind me that the sands of time are fast running out for me in this precious rebirth.

I also wish to remind myself and others that this human rebirth with all the opportune conditions did not happen by chance. I created the causes to be born human in this life by having held my vows well and having practiced Moral Discipline well in previous lives. We have a human body that is perfect for practicing the Dharma because of our having practiced Moral Discipline, i.e., by holding our vows well. So, to attain a human rebirth again , I too must hold my vows well and practice Moral Discipline in this life.

Again, I must also reflect on the fact that a healthy human body and all the other conducive conditions for Dharma practice are not here with me forever. Conditions will change, our bodies may be racked by sickness.

Hence, once we study the Lamrim and  heed the words of our Spiritual Guide, we will not dabble in procrastination. So it is best that we heed the advice given in the Lamrim to practice Dharma NOW if we haven't yet started.